Fiat Coupe Forum
- Founded by Kayjey & James Northam
- Funded by the Club for the benefit of all owners
Fiat Coupe Club UK
join the club
Fiat Coupe Forum
 
» Announced
    Posting images


» Related sites
    Main club site
    fiatcoupe.net


» External data
    owners listed
 
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 78 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics109,550
Posts1,302,099
Members2,735
Most Online546
Aug 30th, 2007
Top Posters(All Time)
stan 32,098
barnacle 32,024
Theresa 22,807
bockers 21,009
PeteP 18,893
JimO 17,908
Nigel 17,017
Jim_Clennell 16,288
Vickster 15,915
RSS Feeds
Club Events
Club Information
Track Events
Rolling Road/RWYB
Social Events
Non-UK Events
Coupé Related Chat
Coupé Spotting
Coupé News/Press
Buying/Selling Advice
Insuring a Coupé
Basic FAQ's
How to Guides
Forum Issues
Technical Problems
General Maintenance
Styling
Tuning
Handling
ICE and Alarm
Coupés for Sale
Coupés Wanted
Parts for Sale
Parts Wanted
Group Buys
Business Forum
Other Vehicles for Sale/Wanted
Other Items for Sale/Wanted
Haggling/Offers
Ebay links
Other Cars
Other Websites
General Chat
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Working on EVs #1623180
21/07/2018 07:39
21/07/2018 07:39
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell Online content OP
Club member 105
Jim_Clennell  Online Content OP
Club member 105
Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
The risks of working on Electric Vehicles (including hybrids) has become a bit of a hot topic recently in the mechanical and bodywork repair industry.

Stories - possibly apocryphal - of injuries sustained by people repairing such cars are appearing and the industry is reacting.

We have now been told that we have to complete an IMI approved training course (at a cost per person of £350 + VAT) or we will not be permitted to work on EVs.

This seems a sensible precaution - even if the information on the HSE website seems entirely sufficient and mostly obvious.

However - and this is the bit that bothers me - we are also being asked to purchase "essential" safety equipment specific to EVs at a cost of £750 + VAT or we won't be permitted to work on them.

What might this equipment consist of?

Clearly, the number and complexity of EV's is rising and we have repaired a dozen or so in the last 18 months without incident.

I'm a little concerned that we might be having our pants pulled down...



Jaaaag!
Re: Working on EVs [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1623183
21/07/2018 09:50
21/07/2018 09:50
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,424
J
JKD Offline
Forum is my job
JKD  Offline
Forum is my job
J

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,424
There appear to be two options here Jim...

A) You let your pants get pulled down but then you get to work on EVs.

B) You don't let your pants get pulled down but then you don't get to work on EVs.

What's more important to you? Your pants or getting to work on EVs, which seem to be rising as you've said yourself, and so one would hope you would make your money back quite soon.


Also, have you heard this? I've not had a chance to properly listen to it myself, but it and the website as a whole seems relevant to your business, so you may have already done so.

http://pdrtooltime.com/70-meet-tdn-tools-the-dangers-of-electrical-cars-traveling-abroad/

Re: Working on EVs [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1623185
21/07/2018 09:56
21/07/2018 09:56
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,017
Staffordshire
Nigel Online sleepy
Club member 123
Nigel  Online Sleepy
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,017
Staffordshire
Pay the costs and then charge (sorry) a premium for working on EVs due to the extra kit required



Re: Working on EVs [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1623187
21/07/2018 11:20
21/07/2018 11:20
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell Online content OP
Club member 105
Jim_Clennell  Online Content OP
Club member 105
Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Thanks, gents. Useful linkage there JKD; although we don't do PDR ourselves, we work with specialists that do. Generally, these would pose a far greater risk of issues with EVs because they a) work with big metal rods and b) stick them inside car body panels where high voltage cables could be lurking.
Our biggest risk is using a welding tip dent puller, but as most EVs use aluminium or plastic panels - at least for the ones we usually work on like bumpers, even this is pretty unlikely.
I suspect the protective safety equipment will be rubber gloves and wellies.



Jaaaag!
Re: Working on EVs [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1623446
30/07/2018 12:52
30/07/2018 12:52
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,424
J
JKD Offline
Forum is my job
JKD  Offline
Forum is my job
J

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,424
Thought you might be interested to read this Jim...

Are Emergency Services Unprepared To Handle Electric Cars?

Re: Working on EVs [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1623461
31/07/2018 05:14
31/07/2018 05:14
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell Online content OP
Club member 105
Jim_Clennell  Online Content OP
Club member 105
Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Thanks JKD, it's more or less what is driving the push for us to get trained (that and nervous insurance companies). We're happy to pay for the training, just a little dubious about the "essential safety equipment".



Jaaaag!
Re: Working on EVs [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1623852
12/08/2018 14:58
12/08/2018 14:58
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell Online content OP
Club member 105
Jim_Clennell  Online Content OP
Club member 105
Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Right, so it seems as though there is slightly more peril to working on electric/hybrid vehicles than I anticipated. Allowing for the fact that there may be a bit of scaremongering in the mix, there actually are some fairly serious risks, including both DC and AC current, arcing, explosion and chemical spillages.

The two biggest problems are 1) knowing where the high voltage elements (including cables) are located and 2) powering the vehicle down.

The problem with 1 is that no two EVs are the same and the problem with 2 is that no two EVs are the same.

Some vehicles (eg. the Renault Zoe) have the charging point at the front, with high voltage cabling running around the front bumper (one of the main areas we work on), some vehicles have the charging point in a location to the conventional refuelling flap and others have them on the rear. The cables run from the charging point to the batteries (which can be *highly* explosive and shouldn't be exposed to temperatures over 60 C) and from the batteries to the drive unit or units. There is also the question of energy recovery on some vehicles, which adds to the potential for risky cables leading back to the batteries.
Apocryphal stories abound, but in addition to the one above about the PDR tech, we were also told about a youth who wanted to fit neons under his Prius and - in his ignorance - tapped into an orange (HV) cable to power them.
To illustrate the bafflingly casual attitude to safety among manufacturers, attendees on the course were invited to feel inside the plastic sills of the trainer's Peugeot to find - you guessed it - the orange high voltage cables held in place with cable ties.

The only way to be sure where the cables and other elements are located, is to source from Thatcham the "methods" that apply to each version/model/model year of each hybrid or EV. These reveal the location of various elements and routing of cables. Manufacturers, we were told, are unable or unwilling to provide these, for reasons best known to themselves.

The procedure is then to shut the vehicle down. This is something that an EV owner will rarely if ever do; it can be a complex procedure, often involving dismantling assemblies - with some delicate, breakable clips, etc., and physically removing some components, waiting for super capacitors to discharge and repeated, careful testing. It can take 2 hours to power a vehicle down fully. And the keys must be kept at a significant distance, as they can cause the car to power up remotely and without warning.

Once this has been done, the vehicle can safely be worked on (whilst still avoiding putting heat into sensitive areas).

Powering up, as Haynes might say (except that there are no Haynes manuals for this), is the reverse of powering down. However, sometimes this can be complicated and if carried out incorrectly, you can effectively "brick" your customer's £20k+ electric vehicle like a duff mobile phone.

All of this raises some issues:
- an extra 2 hours added to a repair could easily push it into a 2 day job - the EV owner is going to be looking at (yet another) premium.
- what owner is going to entrust their pride and joy to someone who is going to carry out a complex technical procedure that could kill their car just to fix a bumper scuff?
- how happy are our insurers going to be to hear about all this?

But, to me, the most important point is this: If we believe what we are being told, surely manufacturers must do a lot more to improve safe access to vehicles for the purposes of service/maintenance and emergency access (as per JKD's article above.

I cannot see why they should not be legally obliged to fit a shut down switch somewhere on the vehicle that allows the EV to be safely and reversibly shut down. Why is this not already happening?

Oh, and the safety equipment?

An arc shield mask, special 1000V gloves, a set of fully insulated tools for removing and refitting parts, an industrial multi-tester and a bunch of plastic chain and posts to put around the vehicle to keep others away.
A grand's worth? I'm not sure.

However, I think we may well go for it, because unless something happens (like a spate of fatalities, etc), there will be more and more EVs and hybrids on our roads. And now that I know a bit more about them, I won't be working on them until I'm sure they are safe.

NB: I should say that I am aware that many similar caveats could be levelled at internal combustion engines and their highly volatile fuel and potentially lethal electrics.



Jaaaag!
Re: Working on EVs [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1623887
12/08/2018 19:17
12/08/2018 19:17
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,024
Hemel in the Hempstead
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - Minister without Portfolio
barnacle  Offline
Club Member 18 - Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,024
Hemel in the Hempstead
I wonder if it's worth a word with your local fire brigade regarding their policies/procedures regarding EVs?



Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Working on EVs [Re: barnacle] #1625270
23/09/2018 13:58
23/09/2018 13:58
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Jim_Clennell Online content OP
Club member 105
Jim_Clennell  Online Content OP
Club member 105
Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,288
Corridor of Uncertainty
Originally Posted By barnacle
I wonder if it's worth a word with your local fire brigade regarding their policies/procedures regarding EVs?


Sound advice, Neil. Back in July, before this EV hoo-hah, we had what in my job is regarded as the ultimate triple whammy customer: a 3-part pearlescent red (think Mazda Soul Red or Renault NNP) Tesla lease car.

As often happens with this colour, it looked fine in the workshop, but it appeared to have been painted with a rattle can of dayglo pink once we got it into daylight. An apology and a rectification on Friday was the result (which went swimmingly thanks to some lovely Peugeot non-3-part red).

It also gave us the opportunity to discuss with the owner (ALL Tesla owners are limitlessly passionate, nay zealous about their cars) the issue of working on EVs.

He pointed us to the Tesla website that has a specific section for the emergency services. Here we were able to find some of the info we need.
However, we have also been asked by another Tesla owner to respray the rims on his brand new Model S, (carbon streamline since you ask), because Tesla charge a fortune for this. It turns out that jacking the car up is a tricky process. Firstly, you need a bespoke milled "key" to fit into the jacking points. Not cheap. Secondly, unless you are able to engage "jack mode" the car will try to self level as you raise it up!
Thirdly - and crucially for us- if your jack is not precisely the right size, it will damage the battery as this takes up virtually all the floor surrounding the jacking points. Even if it doesn't cause major damage, the car will recognise that an incident has occurred and Aunty Elon will want the car back to check it at considerable expense. Just to remove a wheel!

We said no.



Jaaaag!

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1
(Release build 20190129)
PHP: 5.6.40 Page Time: 0.014s Queries: 14 (0.005s) Memory: 1.0473 MB (Peak: 1.2293 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2019-02-20 07:28:22 UTC