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#1531050 - 23/03/2015 13:35 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Jimbo]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By: Jimbo
Im just wondering why it would fit on a spare hub but not one on the car.


It was nowhere near - hub flange was about 115mm, disc recess was about 110mm

It makes me think that some flanges (maybe aftermarket?) are smaller

I've asked Motormech and Eddie at AECars to measure some flanges for me - hopefully, there will be some versions that are smaller than OE
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#1531052 - 23/03/2015 13:56 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Jimbo Offline
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 9705
Loc: Gone
Oh blimey, 5mm is a lot to find. Odd how its gone from needing a spigot ring to losing 5mm. At least machining 5mm out of a hub lip or inner diameter of a disc is less complicated than fiddling with spigot rings.

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#1531059 - 23/03/2015 14:33 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
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Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Technically, it would still need a spigot ring, as the disc centre is 59mm against the hub centre boss of 58mm

However, if I can use the recess in the disc to locate against, I'll do away with the need for a sliver of spacer to take up the 0.5mm gap

TBH, I'll feel safer if I have to do it this way
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#1531071 - 23/03/2015 15:57 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Gimmo]
H_R Offline
Club member 1114
My life on the forum

Registered: 30/07/2012
Posts: 1630
Loc: Dark side of the Moon
Originally Posted By: Gimmo
Good luck Nigel.
A friend of mine in Italy has got Brembo Abarth EsseEsse floating discs.
They are expensive, but great!

Good work!


Slightly off topic i know! but does this mean the Abarth esseesse alloys fit the Fiat Coupe not sure if the 500 or punto are different but does anybody know if either would fit and clear the brembos?
As im going to treat my self to some nice alloys if my house sale falls through! hehe
Cheers thumb

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#1531074 - 23/03/2015 16:11 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: H_R]
one4seven Offline
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 14/06/2013
Posts: 851
Loc: East Anglia
Originally Posted By: H_R
Slightly off topic i know! but does this mean the Abarth esseesse alloys fit the Fiat Coupe


The Esseesse alloys are PCD 98mm, ET 35mm so it could be tight, but theoretically possible.
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Ollie

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#1531078 - 23/03/2015 16:52 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
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Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Be careful - Punto Abarth EsseEsse are 4x100 with 59mm centre bore. 500 Abarth EsseEsse are 4x98, but I don't know the centre bore
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#1531853 - 28/03/2015 12:53 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
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Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Confirmed - there must be more than one size of 20VT hub flange - the one on my Plus (original, I assume) is about 5mm bigger O/D than the loose 20VT hub I trial-fitted the discs against

Next plan is to buy a pair of new hubs and have them turned down to exactly the correct size to locate in the disc recess - the bonus is that this will negate the need to use the 0.5mm spacer in the disc centre
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#1531858 - 28/03/2015 13:23 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2237
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
Sounds good keep the info coming (may need a set for the NA) Nigel good to see people still pushing forward on the tuning/parts front
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LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
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#1531868 - 28/03/2015 14:26 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
szkom Offline
Forum is my job

Registered: 13/09/2009
Posts: 4625
Loc: ation
Originally Posted By: Nigel

Next plan is to buy a pair of new hubs and have them turned down to exactly the correct size to locate in the disc recess - the bonus is that this will negate the need to use the 0.5mm spacer in the disc centre


Just keep in mind that you're reducing the land available to the threads to hold your wheel on, and you've no way of knowing if creating an interface where you plan will result in unwanted failure. I personally consider it a risky way of getting those disc on.

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#1531872 - 28/03/2015 14:43 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2237
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
I don't think Nigel is reducing the flange thickness just the diameter so it will it inside the disc recess. So as for the threads there will be no change
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1531884 - 28/03/2015 17:02 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
szkom Offline
Forum is my job

Registered: 13/09/2009
Posts: 4625
Loc: ation
The land is the area around the bolt hole,not so much the material thickness in this case. My concern is you could end up with crack propagation.

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#1531886 - 28/03/2015 17:17 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2237
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
But as he has said he has found there are different sizes being sold the bigger one being on his plus they could be the originals compared to after market which maybe the smaller.

I guess we will find out shortly
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1531895 - 28/03/2015 18:42 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
szkom Offline
Forum is my job

Registered: 13/09/2009
Posts: 4625
Loc: ation
Hopefully, it'd great if he finds a way. But what we don't know is if the two materials are exactly the same between the differing hubs. Perhaps Nigel's plus hubs just have a degree of grow out after all these years? One point I'm 100% on is that Fiat wouldn't have put any extra meat in unless they had to. Just my opinion, but I believe the hub diameter and disc interface is one of those things you shouldn't touch.

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#1531899 - 28/03/2015 19:19 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Jimbo Offline
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 9705
Loc: Gone
Am i being dumb here; if you reduce the size of that flange by 5mm then wont you need a 5mm spigot ring to locate the wheel central to the hub?

Or are you talking about reducing the hub face diameter by 5mm?

If so, what distance does it leave from the edge of the wheel bolts to hub outer diameter?

A picture would really help smile


Edited by Jimbo (28/03/2015 19:25)

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#1531902 - 28/03/2015 20:02 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Jimbo]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
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Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
OK - lets try to explain better - all measurements approximate for the purpose of illustration (although they're pretty close)

As you can see from the below photo, the alloy disc centre has a recess - this is the side that faces the hub. The size of this recess is about 125mm

click to enlarge

When I trial-fitted the disc, the hub flange was about 120mm in diameter. This means that with a PCD of 98mm and a wheel bolt diameter of 12mm, there was about 5mm of metal between the outer edge of the bolt hole and the outer edge of the flange - lets say this is the left-hand hub flange from this very-hastily drawn diagram.

click to enlarge

This meant that the smaller flange fitted within the recess in the disc (and in fact, moved around a little, due to the slightly larger centre bore - see below)

When I came to fit the disc to my own car, I found that I had the flange on the right of the above diagram, which was simply a larger diameter - approx 128mm

This means that it has a little more metal between the outer of the bolt hole and the edge of the flange AND it means it was marginally too big to fit in the recess of the disc.

OK - that was problem#1

Problem#2 was that the flange boss (the bit that the disc and wheel locate onto) of the Coupe flange is 58mm. The centre hole in my disc is 59mm. When I fitted the disc to my smaller-sized flange, the disc clearly moved around (by 0.5mm in any direction), as the disc hole wasn't locating on the flange boss.

The original proposal was to take up this 0.5mm gap with a "filler-ring" - I was actually going to use a feeler gauge, cut to the correct length and wrapped around the hub flange boss. The disc doesn't put any weight on the boss (unlike the wheel), so the "filler ring" would only have been there for the purpose of keeping the disc concentric with the hub flange.

My new proposal is to buy two new hubs (on order) and have them turned down by about 1.5mm (ie 3mm off the diameter) so that they locate perfectly in the disc recess. These machined hub flanges will still have more meat on them than the smaller flanges I used for the trial-fit. As the machined flanges will still have a 58mm boss, there will still be a 0.5mm gap between the disc and the boss (which won't matter, as the disc will be centred using its OD, instead its ID). The wheel will still fit perfectly, as it locates on the original flange boss.

Hope this makes sense, but I take Szkom's point about possible weakening, so I'll check the hubs after a short period of use.

Does the above make more sense now?
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#1531990 - 29/03/2015 15:50 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Jimbo Offline
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 9705
Loc: Gone
It does, thank you.

Cant you machine a radius off the edge of the hub Nigel or a stepped lip? No need to remove metal from the whole hub and potentially weaken them.
Looking at the picture of the disc, if the hub fits neatly inside then you'll have 0.5D of metal remaining on the hub, I wouldn't want to go much less than that.



Edited by Jimbo (29/03/2015 15:59)

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#1532039 - 29/03/2015 19:25 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Jimbo - yes, I'll probably specify a stepped lit to mate perfectly with the profile of the disc recess - the hub flange is quite a bit thicker than the disc recess, so I reckon I'll be able to leave some of the hub flange at its original OD
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#1532128 - 30/03/2015 13:03 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Begbie Offline
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 12104
Loc: Sandhurst
Nigel, I do hope you realise the centre bore for the hub is 58.1mm and not 58mm that you've mentioned a few times and that you're just being lazy and can't be bothered to type the .1 on the end smile
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#1532138 - 30/03/2015 15:03 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Begbie]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By: Begbie
Nigel, I do hope you realise the centre bore for the hub is 58.1mm and not 58mm that you've mentioned a few times and that you're just being lazy and can't be bothered to type the .1 on the end smile


Nope - not being lazy - just mis-informed. Pretty sure I had read that it was 58mm (possibly read a thread where someone WAS being lazy and couldn't be bothered to type the .1 )

Either way, it looks like the centre bore sizing won't be an issue now
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#1532732 - 04/04/2015 12:21 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
rolleyes - back to Plan A....

The new hub flanges I've bought have arrived and they're the smaller OD version...

I'll be trialling the shim method of locating, using the new hubs - if it works, I'll get them fitted and see how they work on the road

If it doesn't work, I'll have to have my hubs removed and machined to fit the disc recess
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#1532768 - 04/04/2015 18:43 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
UPDATE

The trial fit to the new hubs using the 0.5mm shim has worked exceptionally well....

Disc seated on the hub with the shim in situ - the shim is a very tight fit (had to tap it in with a small hammer and drift bar)

click to enlarge

Hub with the loose shim

click to enlarge

One bent and shaved feeler gauge

click to enlarge

Proof that aftermarket hub flanges are smaller than OE - the OE hub wouldn't even fit in this recess

click to enlarge click to enlarge

So - I have a couple of new wheel bearings on order and I'll have the new hubs fitted in the next few weeks

Note - I've noticed that the disc location holes line up perfectly - I wonder if these are 4x100 on the Coupe hub...
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#1532853 - 05/04/2015 16:04 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Jimbo Offline
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 9705
Loc: Gone
Good work Nigel.

I wonder if you could do away with the feeler gauge if those disc locator holes are an exact match?

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#1534611 - 20/04/2015 17:47 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
UPDATE

Turns out the location screw holes aren't in the right place, so I've reverted to the shim idea. TBH, the shim was so tight that I'm convinced its going to work, but I'll give it a thorough workout and then take the wheel off and see if the shim has moved at all. I have an option of fitting a slightly deeper shim that would be held in place by the wheel, as well as the disc

The car is at Motormech today and has had the new hubs fitted with new wheel bearings - the discs are on and looking V good - just got to fit some new pads, as the Ferodo DS2500 that were on there are looking a bit uneven

Now that the car is only used for 2,000 - 3,000 miles a year, I've splashed out on my favourite pad - the Pagid RS29 "Yellow" - this was the pad used by several LeMans endurance teams and which gave me the best brake setup I've ever experienced on a Coupe (along with DBA discs). It has been two or three years since I ran with the Pagids, so I'm looking forward to having a pad with great bite and amazing feedback
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#1535658 - 27/04/2015 20:12 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
andyps Offline
Club member 1482
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 1149
Loc: Pontefract, West Yorkshire
Any further update Nigel?
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Andy


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#1535736 - 28/04/2015 10:30 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: andyps]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By: andyps
Any further update Nigel?


Yes - the discs are fitted. Matt at Motormech commented that the centring solution seemed to work well and that in his opinion, once the disc is clamped between the wheel and the hub, it won't move anyway.

I've also got some Pagid yellows going in, plus four new gearbox bearings, plus a camber change (down to -0.75) and finally, a re-fit of rear subframe polybushes

Hopefully, after all these tweaks, I should be back to the sharp but neutral handling I used to enjoy with my Sprinty, but has evaded me so far in the Moonie
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#1535746 - 28/04/2015 12:14 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2237
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
A re fit with the poly bushes on the rear subframe? Are you just fitting new ones or was there something wrong with the old ones Nigel
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1535755 - 28/04/2015 15:20 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Gimmo Offline
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 23/08/2013
Posts: 479
Loc: North Italy
Any photos of disc fitted?
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Supporting member of FCCUK

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#1535758 - 28/04/2015 16:32 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: knight7660]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By: knight7660
A re fit with the poly bushes on the rear subframe? Are you just fitting new ones or was there something wrong with the old ones Nigel


My polybushes were the first time Paul had fitted any and the subframe twisted under the pressure of the press (which we didn't realise until after it was fitted). Paul now warms the bushes up before pressing in, and uses copious amounts of grease. We looked at extracting the old bushes from the twisted subframe, but it would have cost me more in labour than a new set of bushes cost

Originally Posted By: Gimmo
Any photos of disc fitted?


I have a photo on my phone - I will upload it later
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#1536999 - 06/05/2015 23:42 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Gimmo Offline
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 23/08/2013
Posts: 479
Loc: North Italy
Nigel, it's all ok? laugh
We are waiting for photos laugh
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#1537042 - 07/05/2015 10:46 Re: Floating discs at last [Re: Nigel]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16982
Loc: Staffordshire
Coupe is still at Motormech, so I haven't been able to get any photos

The discs are on the car and looking great, but I'm still waiting for the gearbox bearings to be fitted, along with rear subframe bushes, a full geometry set-up and an aircon top-up and aux belts

Not looking forward to the bill......
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