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perfect touch disaster #414292
13/08/2007 22:47
13/08/2007 22:47

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I went perfect touch today and I haven't got good news. Oil spilled everywhere and on a compression test one of the cylinders was down to 100. I took the car in perfectly fine. Yet perfect touch say it is my fault. The car prduced up to 347bhp during their runs which rob told me yet he says the fault lies with the car. How does a faulty car make up to 347bhp with one cylinder down. They refuse to give me a graph of diagnostics for my runs. Yet I have paid. Rob says when the car came in he saw oil on the sip. On hearing this I said why didn't you mention this and why did you run the car? No answer. He said the car was producing lots of smoke on the first run he did. I said why didn't you stop what you were doing? Why didn't you tell me? Why did you carryon? He has no answer to this. I say if you think a car isn't running well enough you would not push it. And I think who is working on the car should let the owner know. Yet he did none of this. Perfect touch are trying not to take the blame and putting it on me. I have asked for graphs and I got nothing. All I get is the car was doing this or leaking that.. yet if the car was such in a bad state why proceed to map it. They also had a new software installed and one of the engineers was there watching the run and I think my car was also used as a guinea pig to test their new toy. I have left the car there and I am here seeking advice. Is the blame with me or perfect touch? On replies I will be contacting my insurance seeking legal advise. Also while I was there none of them would start the car. Yet about half an hour ago Claudio called to say my car was running (On 4 cylinders as when rob done the test it was 100 175 160 165 175. So now he wants me to take the car away running with one cylinder down which wasnt the case when I brought it in. Also before he called to say the car is running he threatened to call the police if I do not remove my car which I said he should and he has failed to do so. On earlier talks with my mum at around 4 sumthing he told her the turbo Im running is to big for the car gt2871r on which she said why did you still run the car and he had no answer. The reason behind all the excuses that have no weight is that the car was fine when I brought it in and the problem lies with who was mapping the car. I think he pushed it to far or his mind was somewhere else and he wasn't watching everthing or what ever happened in the mapping room(as they shut the door and no one goes in) was not my fault. And I dont think I should pay about a grand or more for something that could have been avoided.

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414299
13/08/2007 22:57
13/08/2007 22:57

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I think you need to establish whether or not you can prove it was running ok before you went in.

You have done the smartest thing by leaving the car there. If you'd taken it away they would have claimed that everything was working when it left there. Now there isnt anything else thats happened after they have mapped it. Personally if they said they noticed oil before working on the car then they proceeded, they have set themselves up for a fall. That is going on the info u have given btw.

They cannot charge what they do, then take no responsibility. U pay the money for them to do the job right.

Ross

p.s. the police will do nuthing. Its a civil matter.

Last edited by h2ypr; 13/08/2007 22:58.
Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414307
13/08/2007 23:03
13/08/2007 23:03

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I went perfect touch today and I haven't got good news. Oil spilled everywhere and on a compression test one of the cylinders was down to 100.

I took the car in perfectly fine. Yet perfect touch say it is my fault. The car prduced up to 347bhp during their runs which rob told me yet he says the fault lies with the car.

How does a faulty car make up to 347bhp with one cylinder down? They refuse to give me a graph of diagnostics for my runs. Yet I have paid. Rob says when the car came in he saw oil on the sip. On hearing this I said why didn't you mention this and why did you run the car? No answer.

He said the car was producing lots of smoke on the first run he did. I said why didn't you stop what you were doing? Why didn't you tell me? Why did you carryon? He has no answer to this.

I say if you think a car isn't running well enough you would not push it. And I think who is working on the car should let the owner know. Yet he did none of this.

Perfect touch are trying not to take the blame and putting it on me. I have asked for graphs and I got nothing. All I get is the car was doing this or leaking that.. yet if the car was such in a bad state why proceed to map it.

They also had a new software installed and one of the engineers was there watching the run and I think my car was also used as a guinea pig to test their new toy. I have left the car there and I am here seeking advice.

Is the blame with me or perfect touch? On replies I will be contacting my insurance seeking legal advise. Also while I was there none of them would start the car. Yet about half an hour ago Claudio called to say my car was running (On 4 cylinders as when rob done the test it was 100 175 160 165 175. So now he wants me to take the car away running with one cylinder down which wasnt the case when I brought it in.

Also before he called to say the car is running he threatened to call the police if I do not remove my car which I said he should and he has failed to do so. On earlier talks with my mum at around 4 sumthing he told her the turbo Im running is to big for the car gt2871r on which she said why did you still run the car and he had no answer.

The reason behind all the excuses that have no weight is that the car was fine when I brought it in and the problem lies with who was mapping the car. I think he pushed it to far or his mind was somewhere else and he wasn't watching everthing or what ever happened in the mapping room (as they shut the door and no one goes in) was not my fault. And I dont think I should pay about a grand or more for something that could have been avoided.

-----------------------

Sorry Kester, i had to re-arrange your post.. too difficult to read in one block.

Anyhow.. sorry to hear about your car. I guess the only way you're going to know why you have low compression is to take the head off the car. From there you'll be able to see if the car has been damaged due to det or perhaps it was running lean?

I'm surprised that they didn't give you your graphs though. You had paid for them after all. \:\?

Where was the oil coming from? And was there enough in it when it was run on the rollers?

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414312
13/08/2007 23:12
13/08/2007 23:12

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I was at rog's on friday and the oil was topped up. Oil was from the air breather side. Passenger side

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414313
13/08/2007 23:13
13/08/2007 23:13

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 Originally Posted By: k35t3r
I was at rog's on friday and the oil was topped up. Oil was from the air breather side. Passenger side


Did he hear the engine running? Compression test etc?

Ross

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414319
13/08/2007 23:32
13/08/2007 23:32

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By he, do you mean rog? If so he did here it running. No compression test was done though.
I also dont delieve my engine would have made 347bhp if a cylinder was down

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414320
13/08/2007 23:32
13/08/2007 23:32

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Well what kinda power were you expecting?

Ross

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414323
13/08/2007 23:36
13/08/2007 23:36
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While I sympathise with you, there are obviously two sides to this story (I am not in any way trying to suggest you are making things up) but it might be advisable to keep this off the forum, especially if you are going to be involved in legal proceedings to sort the issue out. Although I hope that it doesn't come to that.


Death-rattle-tastic
Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414324
13/08/2007 23:36
13/08/2007 23:36

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I told him If he can get to 350bhp it would be enough. I told him to keep it between 1.3 and 1.4.

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414328
13/08/2007 23:38
13/08/2007 23:38

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Well then. It obviously was ok or they are amazing at mapping, that they can map a car thats 1 piston down to 347bhp \:D

Hope ya get it all sorted.

Ross

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414352
14/08/2007 00:16
14/08/2007 00:16

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Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414356
14/08/2007 00:23
14/08/2007 00:23
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I'm playing Devil's advocate here - just to give you a possible view from PTs perspective

An engine with 100psi compression on one cylinder will run pretty well. I know this for a fact, as when I overheated mine, I had less than 100psi on TWO cylinders - it will still produce good power, as the cylinder pressure forces the rings against the bores.

To be honest, I ran my car for a couple of weeks after the overheating incident and the ONLY way I knew something was wrong was that at tickover I could just feel a very slight vibration - anything above 1,000rpm and it felt perfect - even the performance was very good - still sailed off the clock.

I know the temptation must be to blame PT, but there's every chance your car was poorly before it went in.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just alerting you to the fact that there's another possible side to the story

Its entirely conceivable that the engine was already down on compression - it would account for the oil in the intake (bad compression due to rings will usually pressurise the crankcase, causing oil to come out of the breather)

PT wouldn't have known this, but they commented on the oil before the dyno runs. After the run, there would be oil around the intake, although for there to be lots, something else must have failed


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Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: Nigel] #414360
14/08/2007 00:25
14/08/2007 00:25

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 Originally Posted By: Nigel


PT wouldn't have known this, but they commented on the oil before the dyno runs. After the run, there would be oil around the intake, although for there to be lots, something else must have failed



I agree with your objective view Nigel, but its totally unlikely that a car with 100psi on 1 cylinder will make the power expected of it. It would be down on power even if it did run ok. The fact that rob's given the figure that kester is expecting, says to me that the engine was running ok at that point. Just my opinion.

Ross

p.s. just as another point. Usually when a company doesnt feel responsible for someones car problem, they are as helpful as possible which kinda shows they have nothing to hide as such. In this case, if the info is all true, they have made it difficult for him by not providing graphs and generally not being open to reason. The OP sounds very annoyed and frustrated, not just disappointed.

Last edited by h2ypr; 14/08/2007 00:30.
Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414434
14/08/2007 01:20
14/08/2007 01:20
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Cambridge & Cotswolds
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I have no side to take here just giving my experience of rolling road tuners. All the good ones that I've been to do a full check over of the engine & general set-up before they start doing anything. Generally they do things like pull the plugs to check condition and normally ask lots of questions about the engine build and so forth. It would be irresponsible (and asking for trouble IMHO) if someone started to tune (attempting to get 50% more power than standard) an engine that wasn't in top nick.

Personally, once they had started to fiddle with the mapping, they take a degree of responsibility for the engine. In this circumstance, I'd be expecting them to have to demonstrate that, on the balance of probabilities, the engine was faulty before they started. They owe you a duty of care to not do anything that might damage your engine - you are, after all, paying them as experts in this subject.

As stated, you are wise to leave the car there and to seak advice. Your insurance company is a great place to start. If you paid by credit card, you might also have a route there too. I'm no expert but just some thoughts and ideas.

Richard

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414456
14/08/2007 01:33
14/08/2007 01:33

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I had my car mapped at perfect touch also.

I checked my car the night before and all was sweet,however it developed an oil leak on the way there which i didnt know
about.

Rob saw this before the first run and refused to run it.I
agreed and aborted the run.

On removing the car from the rollers they ripped off my limited edition front bumper.
They said they would cover the repair bill(fair enough sh17 happends)

Then we found out the filter had come loose so tightened it,cleaned off the residue and carried on.
They took the car from 260 bhp to 300 and without a doubt is the best mod i have done to the car.
rob has great ability and seems to know what he is doing.
However come the end of the day they tried to charge me £750.Even though they said £450 on the phone.

Claudio said it was because they had spent the day cleaning the oil off the car and messing with the Avcr.
However they did quote £450 for a days dyno.
And if i knew they were going to charge me 300 quid for a steam clean i wouldnt have bothered.
So i paid £450 in the end and went home with the same bill i was quoted on the phone and with a steep bill for a new bumper and a respray but on the other hand if they had continued then my engine would have gone bang if the oil leaked out.
And Rob did stay very late to sort it.
Im a big fan of Rob and he seems very honest.
Claudio i feel ripped me off.

I have damaged cars where i work,like i said sh17 happends but we always repair them and the bill doesnt change.

So i paid no more than i was quoted on the phone but you can tell he doesnt like parting with his money even if he is wrong.
Rob and Claudio were very thorough in checking my car,and made it very clear it wouldnt go on unless it was spot on.

so i doubt very much that they would have let your car on the rollers with a oil leak and a smoky engine.

I personally wont use them again.

In your case your car has failed so convincing anyone otherwise will be difficult.But good luck.
It would be interesting to see just how much they pushed it before it let go.
The least he could have done is not charged you for the dyno tbh.

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414470
14/08/2007 01:42
14/08/2007 01:42
Joined: Dec 2005
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Banbury
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My engine went about a month after it was mapped at perfect touch low compression in 4 and 5 cylinders. I am currently about to rebuild mine but I do have to say that it seems like they stretch the limits a bit to far and not keep it on the safe side. That is my opinion.
Sorry to hear what has happend. There is a 20vt engine going on e bay for 97 quid at the moment.


362bhp of warble

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414477
14/08/2007 01:46
14/08/2007 01:46
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Staffordshire
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 Quote:
its totally unlikely that a car with 100psi on 1 cylinder will make the power expected of it


Why - as I've already said, by the time the car is on boost, the cylinder pressure will force the rings against the bore, creating MUCH better compression.

My car was still ridiculously fast with two bad cylinders - I reckon it would have produced within 5% of its previous good peak power.


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Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: Nigel] #414479
14/08/2007 01:47
14/08/2007 01:47

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 Originally Posted By: Nigel
 Quote:
its totally unlikely that a car with 100psi on 1 cylinder will make the power expected of it


Why - as I've already said, by the time the car is on boost, the cylinder pressure will force the rings against the bore, creating MUCH better compression.

My car was still ridiculously fast with two bad cylinders - I reckon it would have produced within 5% of its previous good peak power.


Im not disagreeing that you will get *better* compression but after refering to the legend himself, its unlikely it would reach its full level of power.

Ross

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414486
14/08/2007 01:51
14/08/2007 01:51

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I'm not taking sides here at all, but for anyone reading this - if you take your car to be mapped it's your responsibility to check it over beforehand.

That means:

Compression test
Clutch
Oil Leaks
Injectors
Plugs
Fuel pump
boost leaks
cam variator

etc...

You have to get the car running as damn near perfect as you can. It means less time on the rollers, and hopefully no other issues.

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414492
14/08/2007 01:58
14/08/2007 01:58
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Banbury
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Yes but they really should do a compression check before they put it on the rollers. That is the only way to be sure that all is correct before they map it. I am sure that if you did a compression check before you went then A) They/any garage would not except what you say because there is no proof you did it), B) Something could happen on the drive to getting the car mapped.
There is no way they would payout to fix it.


362bhp of warble

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: stevo] #414497
14/08/2007 02:06
14/08/2007 02:06

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With 100 psi,it depends whats let go.Also how quick it takes to get to 100psi.If your cranking it for ages and it gets to 100 or if it gets there in 4-5 seconds.
That bhp on 100 psi is impossible.1 pot down will directly effect back pressure,engine balance and if its blowing past the rings then it will create a drag and build up of heat.It may also cause injector correction.
Most of the gt28 20vt's hover around the 310-330 mark.
300 bhp is a tall ask on a modded 20vt engine thats running well,let alone one thats not.
But as for pushing it too hard there are a bunch of fccukers from sweeden i think that have 3 20vts running 400+ on stock internals.

In all fairness to pt they use det cans,push the engine to its limit as far as ignition advance goes and then back it off.They have a lot of positive feedback on here and up until now have never pushed a engine further than it will go.
But lets say they did push it too hard,they are tuners,you did know the risk and im not sure where you would start.
Is the responsability theres?Or yours?
Might be worth contacting a solicitor and see what they say.

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414502
14/08/2007 02:09
14/08/2007 02:09
Joined: Dec 2005
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Banbury
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Yep it defo must have let go on the rollers.

Think carlt does talk alot of sense when he says Leave it alone. I would have saved thousands!


362bhp of warble

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: stevo] #414507
14/08/2007 02:16
14/08/2007 02:16

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 Originally Posted By: stevo
Yes but they really should do a compression check before they put it on the rollers. That is the only way to be sure that all is correct before they map it. I am sure that if you did a compression check before you went then A) They/any garage would not except what you say because there is no proof you did it), B) Something could happen on the drive to getting the car mapped.
There is no way they would payout to fix it.


I don't think anyone (edit - i.e. any RR) does this?

Last edited by davidub; 14/08/2007 02:17.
Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414510
14/08/2007 02:18
14/08/2007 02:18
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,513
Banbury
stevo Offline
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Most rolling roads just do a power run, they don't live map it.


362bhp of warble

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: stevo] #414512
14/08/2007 02:22
14/08/2007 02:22

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 Originally Posted By: stevo
Most rolling roads just do a power run, they don't live map it.


Not taking sides, but personally, I think if you're going to stick on a whacking great big turbo and run 1.4 bar you should get it checked yourself before you do anything.

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414515
14/08/2007 02:29
14/08/2007 02:29
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Staffordshire
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JBT - its a GT2871R, not just a GT28 - this turbo will produce SERIOUS power (as Flea's and my cars will testify).

And I STILL maintain that on a wide open throttle, at 1.4 bar, the compression rings will do their job and be forced against the cylinder walls, creating almost as good compression as a cylinder with no ring wear.

A compression test is done with no combustion pressure, thus allowing maximum blow-by


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Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: Nigel] #414526
14/08/2007 02:43
14/08/2007 02:43

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Well why didnt PT give him any graphs then?

Ross

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414542
14/08/2007 03:07
14/08/2007 03:07

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 Originally Posted By: h2ypr
Well why didnt PT give him any graphs then?

Ross


Probably 'cause they knew they were gonna get sh*t! I don't know whose fault it was, but PT must know by now how the couple should fuel, they must know by now how much boost they should run and they must know by now aprox how much ignition advance they can dial-in given an octane rating for a fuel. I think most people would find it unlikely they'd let it run away deting it's head off 'till it went bang ... that's not to say it didn't happen. I'm guessing that a solicitor would say that if PT can show that they map cars in a systematic way in-line with other tuning shops then they would be on safe ground. I would say that the best outcome one could hope for in this situation is for PT to wave their charge as a gesture of goodwill (with no admission of liability) .... all IMHO of course!

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: ] #414627
14/08/2007 11:06
14/08/2007 11:06
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I think the issue is very muddy. I do however think that a tuner is very foolish to commence tuning an engine that they can see isn't in top condition. I say again, the best tuners I've used always do a thorough investigation of the engine before starting. Pete Lander, who found 20bhp out of my normally aspirated, points-ignition, carb'd 60's Alfa twin cam spent longer finding out what he'd got to work with than he did making the improvements. He referred to me constantly, asking loads of questions about the engine build and he was very conservative. Pete's in his 60's and been doing this all his life.

All the stuff about not handing over the figures and threatening to call the police doesn't reflect well either.

Good luck with getting the right outcome - whatever that might be.

Richard

Re: perfect touch disaster [Re: MeanRedSpider] #414670
14/08/2007 12:57
14/08/2007 12:57

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I'm just glad i got my car mapped on the worst fuel and told Rob not to push it near its limits.

It sounds like a rum deal, i cant imagine why they would claim they would call the police unless everything has got very out of hand, they have always come across as being fairly relaxed.

k35t3r what mods have you got and whats the background on your car? Cars developing serious problems while getting mapped is not uncommon at all, i'm just surprised that PT seem to be handling the matter in such an unsympathetic way, as said before it makes them look guilty if its as one sided as you say it is (no offence).

When Rob mapped my car last week i told him that i felt the car was seriously underfuelling before he started so he started making adjustments straight away without attempting to do too many power runs.

My car took only 2 hours to map so my bill was unexpectedly low.

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