Yeah, the A cover version have been around, those Mitsi guys and full race seem to have some supply of the larger B and C cover offerings

Still, a fair amount of coin

http://www.full-race.com/articles/borgwarner-efr-turbos.html

Still didn't get it running properly though did you lol

Ohhh well the expert has it now

By the time I'm your age I'm sure ill have a real monster though

question is..

will your mustash be as thick as Begbie's???

thats a tricky one

I've got no idea on this 'mustash' you talk about?

There are the big lines :

- TD05H-18G with 8cm2/T3 hotside
- 38mm external wastegate on stock exhaust manifold + screamer pipe
- 1000cc injectors (i'm running on full e85)
- FMIC
- Tipo inlet cam and 16vt intake fitted at exhaust (with variable cams pulleys)


You can go with T3/T4 as told above 300bhp are easily reached (on RON98 and 1.3 bar my friend reached 300bhp with T3/T4 trim 50 internally gated).

EDIT : a (bad quality) video of my tacho at 1.2 bar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbEqOO6GIRA&feature=youtu.be

merci beaucoup Julien!

the TD05H is a Mitsubishi turbo? or i'm wrong?

In fact, yes and no

The mitsu standard turbo is a twinscroll turbo reverse rotation wheel (in front of the compresosr wheel it spins anti-clockwise).

The unit I have is like the kinugawa or Jaware house turbo you find on ebay so it's single scroll and spins clockwise.
I have full boost at 3800rpm but still need to tune it better (medium advances and bad cam timig)

If you want a badass 300bhp turbo setup I would advise you this :
stock EVO 7/8/9 turbo + manifold (you will need a flange to slightly relocate the turbo because it will touch the gearbox) + custom downpipe. You can get some good used units under 400£

It spools like crazy : full boost at 2800rpm (1.5+ bar) and you have good top end to 7000rpm (don't go above with standard internals).
If you want to go bigger on compressor (18G or 20G) then take the td06SL2 exhaust wheel or you will restrain power.

You asked us to get it running, not running properly.

Miracles we do at once; the impossible takes a little longer!

I would advice the stage 3 kit from Dink with supporting mods. It is easy to install. No issue with downpipe etc.

And when you go forged there is still some horses left with that set-up.

I'm now in the brake in period of my rebuild forged engine.
Next year a remap and C&B cams and we can see the full potential off this set up.

What turbo you running Turboman??
And which profile c&b's are you going for??

Nick

Garret BB TO4E 50 trim and TA4 stage 2/3 hotside. The one from Dink stage 3 kit.

I'm not after big bhp but I want the biggest powerband and torque possible for this set up.

Also for the cams I think max street cams. Because they have more cam lift for longer time than medium street cams.

Same cams as me!!
48 or 63 exhaust housing??
What sort of boost you prepared to run?
I predict very similar results to mine accept I'm expecting yours to come on boost considerably earlier due to ball bearing turbo!!
What size is compressor wheel?? 70mm??

Nick

I hope soo . Compressor wheel is 75mm/54mm. And 0.63 hotside.

So I found that link on your topic for compressor wheels. And I measured the comp wheel 54mm. And that link says its a TO4E 54 trim then. So a 75mm/54mm wheel. But the site from Dink says 50 trim. But that is not a problem to me.

But the injectors (500cc) from the stage 3 kit is only good up to 1.5 or 1.6 bar boost I think. Injectors are red from bosch. So I want to max out the injectors and then boost will be 1.5 or 1.6 when possible.

But still I haven't got the chance to give it full trottle how it now is with stage 3 kit and around 300bhp and 1.2 bar. Because the brake in period off rebuild forged engine.

But I want new cams because the old Fiat cams often fail. And I don't want to damage the new engine. So that's my main concern. Not that I get more power. But to max performance for that set up would be nice after some time I guess.

The C&B max street cams are a very good setup for a road tuned engine.

It gives more power on the hole powerband.

You can't go wrong with T3/T4 on 50trim or 54trim...it will makes easily 400+ at 1.5-1.7bar of boost

With that compressor wheel I think 400 is definitely possible but you may need to push it a little harder than 1.5-1-7 bar to get there!!
I predict 380 bhp with similar torques.... If you can get 1.7 to hold!
Shouldn't be a problem with the exhaust side you have tobe honest, to see 400 though I think you'd need tobe boosting to a minimum of 1.9 bar!!

Julien is right about the cams though, I think they are the main reason for my power peaking at 6950 revs.... Pulls all the way to redline!!

-Ahem- My car. Turbonetics T04e 50-trim, 403 bhp -cough- 385 lbsft @ 1.5 bar

As for cams. I've been banging on about this for soooo long. Cam selection and timing is REALLY important on these cars. Get it wrong and you'll end up with all horsepower and no torque, or vice-versa. I believe I've got it right with my current Tipo/Coupe setup. Good power, really strong torque, with no compromise in tractability right from from off-idle. A perfect road-car setup.

I've never been very impressed with the results I've seen from 16VTs with C&B road cams, they always seem to make lousy torque. I could be wrong though, maybe the one's I've seen have just been tuned by people who didn't know how to time cams properly.

The convension seems to be 16VT = C&B cams but there are other cams available for 16VTs too! Like Catcams. Catcams are great on N/A engines. I'd love to find out what can be done with them on a 16VT.

Nick: I thought your's bhp peaked at 6500?

Turboman: 57mm/54mm comp would make yours a 52-trim, which doesn't exist, so I guess it's a 50-trim.

Didn't realise it was same comp wheel as yours Kj!!
In that case then should get close to 400 but your stage 2 turbine may choke it a little, but as your not fussed about max bhp it makes no odds!!

Mine made peak power at 6400 on first dyno run, then a week later after leaky inlet doughnuts were sorted peak power actually moved up 6750 revs... So I was a little out in previous post!!

Reckon this will be a great turbo choice then Turboman!!

Nick

I know its a good turbo and trim 50 then KJ . Thanks too Dink really . A stage 2 or 3 makes almost no difference only 1mm max or less I think.

I know Dink from years back and that he is one off the best for tuning the 16VT engine. Now I have this kit the car feels a lot different.

Even without boost I can feel it has more torque thanks too the injectors downpipe and FMIC with SIP. Also the original con rod + piston wheight was almost 1.5kg. Now a rod piston combo wheight is 1.1kg! And everything is fully balanced too. So I'm pretty nervious for when I get the chance too rev it. Only 300km and an oil change too go haha.

I want not more then 1.7 bar defenitely. And want to keep it (just) under 400bhp in the future. Dont want to change gearbox or diff to often. And I want good torque down low, at 3K revs up, more then biggest bhp.

For cams I go for C&B because its known for quality. Most people use them and no failures and pretty good performance. Also with adjustable cam pulley's off course.

But first I'm going to enjoy this. And I'm a little tired off all the time and money going in to this 'project'. Those plans are for after Spa Italia

if you go over 1.5 bar do you need to change the MAP sensor

but.. do you need to change electronic to allow
the ECU read the new volt/value with different MAP sensor?

You need a 3 bar MAP sensor and the correct mapping for that I think.

Only way to go I think.

Turboman: It's not the just the exducer diameter that's different between the st.2 and st.3 wheels. The tip heights are also different. Plus the blades overlap a lot less on the st. 3 for lower backpressure.

Here is a pic of a T34 I built for a customer a while back. The turbine on the left is the original st.1. The one on the right is the st.3 wheel I upgraded it to.


Compare it to the st.2 wheel shown below:



Scuderia: Yes you definitely have to use a 3 bar MAP sensor to run over 1.5 bar. If you try to run more the 1.5 bar on the stock sensor the ECU assumes the MAP sensor is faulty and goes into 'emergency' mode.

Yes the ECU has to be remapped specially to suit the 3 bar MAP sensor.

I think Scuderia probably already knew that Kj as i think he's been messing with 16vts longer than you and me put together.. Lol

It was someone else who asked the question regarding 3 bar map sensor.... (Burnbike iirc)...!

Regarding the stage 2 turbine, I remember saint trying this and iirc he said it wasn't much of an improvement over stock.... Although he was still using ar 48 ex side.
Though saying this think stage 2 will be perfect choice for where Turboman is trying to get!!

Nick

That's the second time I've done that! Last time I changed the name before anyone noticed [facepalm] Yes, Burnbike!

@KJ I only knew about the exducer diameter. But now I see it's a lot different compared to stage 2. Thanks for info. Good to know that this turbo can be upgraded when the time has come.

@Nick I think that the turbine housing is very restrictive in higher rpm. so when you take the original turbine housing and put bigger wheels etc in it, it still wont flow more exhaust gas. So in higher rpm you still haven't got more boost. Maybe less.

So I think this turbo is perfecto for what I want mid range punch but with the top end power. And under 400bhp at the end. So my turbo spools more early then KJ but has a little less top end power. I know this turbo is good for 350bhp and more. But how much more I dont know

On ATP turbo there is also a stage 5. Is that any good? And what sort of performance?

Or is it better to go for the GT or GTX series. Because stage 5 is too laggy?

Haven't seen one with stage 5. Its always stage 3 or 2 I've seen.

If go for s GTX turbo because of the new design and the amount of benefits you get. Just look what differences it's making with the 20vts with modern tech compared to old.

Just like the t34 etc

A stage 5 wheel is pretty darn big for a 2 litre 4-pot (or 5-pot!).l Very high flow and low back pressure, but even more lag and even higher boost-threshold. An old-tech stage 5 wheel wouldn't make for a very fun Coupe.

However, the beauty of these new-tech turbos is that they use lighter wheels and low friction bearings, which means you can use big, efficient wheels without the penalty of more lag and higher-boost thresholds. In particular, BW say that their EFR wheels are almost as light as old-skool comps. This is great because the wheel is by far the heaviest part of the rotating assembly. (BTW 'wheel' = turbine)

So with the new-tech turbos you can run big, efficient wheels and still retain acceptable performance.

The EFR (esp. the internal wastegate models) looks to me like it would be a real pain to fit on a Coupe though.

You don't have to change to a 3bar MAP sensor, it is possible to run beyond the factory 2.5bar sensor as long as the ECU is mapped accordingly. If you do not modify the map then boost exceeding 1.5bar will result in a harsh fuel cut.

I have tuned a couple 16vt engines that I set to 1.5-1.6bar max boost, therefore it was not worthwhile to change the MAP sensor to accomodate this slight increase of pressure above the threshold. For cars that will see 1.7bar+ then a 3bar MAP sensor is required for optimal tuning.

No you've missed out something: If the MAP output goes above 4.75V for a certain amount of time the ECU will cut into an 'emergency' map, (which I guess you didn't know about?).

Not to mention, in order to run above 1.5 bar on the stock sensor you have to cancel out the boost limiter. so no more safety measure if the turbo should ever overboost.

If you didn't know all this then I suggest you step away from the 16VT before you break something. It's a time-based parameter, so its just a matter of time above 1.5 bar before...

As I've said a gazillion times: I don't just say stuff off the top of my head. I say it because I've found it out for myself on my own cars. Not just mapped someone elses and thought 'okay that didn't blow up therefore I am an expert now'

You of all people know that running above the MAP sensor's maximum reading is daft so please don'tcontradict for the sake of contradiction again - it's getting boring now.