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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403475
13/01/2013 21:45
13/01/2013 21:45
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580 Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
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TO4E 50 trim with stage 3 hotside would be perfect.
You can buy this turbo from Turbonetics or atpturbo.com
Yep, with a 0.63 hot side at least.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403476
13/01/2013 21:51
13/01/2013 21:51
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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show us the 'maths' then! (I won't hold my breath for a well informed and detailed answer)
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: Scuderia]
#1403485
13/01/2013 23:12
13/01/2013 23:12
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Turboman87
Unregistered
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Turboman87
Unregistered
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TO4E 50 trim with stage 3 hotside would be perfect.
You can buy this turbo from Turbonetics or atpturbo.com
Yep, with a 0.63 hot side at least. Of course ATP turbo has a 0.72 A/r hotside. Could be great for this set-up and top power.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: nick_d]
#1403510
14/01/2013 00:49
14/01/2013 00:49
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Turboman87
Unregistered
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Turboman87
Unregistered
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I've been enquiring about the cossie style 72ar exhaust housing.... Together with either a GTX 3071r OR GTX 2876r.... Whole turbo can be had for around 1200 quids + postage....
Think the 72 housing would work great on this super charger/ turbo project!!
Nick If I could do my rebuild etc. all over again. I would go for the GTX3071R.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403590
14/01/2013 13:17
14/01/2013 13:17
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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show us the 'maths' then! ( I won't hold my breath for a well informed and detailed answer) Probably a good decision, as I won't be giving a maths lecture here.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403672
14/01/2013 18:23
14/01/2013 18:23
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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show us the 'maths' then! ( I won't hold my breath for a well informed and detailed answer) Probably a good decision, as I won't be giving a maths lecture here. Good, I knew you would fail to back up your dismissal of someone else's work (again).
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403677
14/01/2013 18:36
14/01/2013 18:36
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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show us the 'maths' then! ( I won't hold my breath for a well informed and detailed answer) Probably a good decision, as I won't be giving a maths lecture here. Good, I knew you would fail to back up your dismissal of someone else's work (again). OK, expert, explain to me (with maths) how it is possible to get the claimed power at 2.6 bar boost and at the same time demonstrate the power it would generate with zero boost - e.g 1 bar manifold pressure. I am dismissing nobody's work - I cannot however accept works of fiction as fact.
Last edited by group5lancia; 14/01/2013 18:39.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403701
14/01/2013 19:58
14/01/2013 19:58
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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I'd love to but I don't know what turbo he's using (not going to bother to find out) and as you know (maybe you don't) you cannot estimate airflow without that piece of information (let alone all the other parameters to give it a go). What I do know is the time he set at Forrestburn hillclimb and how they compare to the single seat cars there. If you don't believe that owner then join the MLR and send him a message rather then stomp your feet around another forum and get upset when your asked to explain your reasoning. You're the one who needs to justify your opinion, and if you were to do so in concise manner then I'd give your opinion some credence. Until then give up.
Last edited by sediciRich; 14/01/2013 20:06.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403709
14/01/2013 20:21
14/01/2013 20:21
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I'd love to but I don't know what turbo he's using (not going to bother to find out) and as you know (maybe you don't) you cannot estimate airflow without that piece of information (let alone all the other parameters to give it a go). What I do know is the time he set at Forrestburn hillclimb and how they compare to the single seat cars there. If you don't believe that owner then join the MLR and send him a message rather then stomp your feet around another forum and get upset when your asked to explain your reasoning. You're the one who needs to justify your opinion, and if you were to do so in concise manner then I'd give your opinion some credence. Until then give up. I am in no-way upset - believe me... And, unlike you, I believe that claims of unreasonable/improbable/impossible/implausible power outputs are what need justifying. Demonstrating they are ludicrous is childs play - but you would understand that, as I am sure you know that airflow capability of a turbo has nothing to do with actual power achieved once installed on an engine. Turbo charging does not bring with it 'MAGIC' power - but density ratios have EVERYTHING to do with power outputs. Of course, having built and dyno'd so many turbo engines yourself you would know that... p.s. To save you doing any research at all, Begbie THINKS he is using a huge GT42 turbo - as if that makes a difference...
Last edited by group5lancia; 14/01/2013 20:27.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403792
15/01/2013 01:38
15/01/2013 01:38
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,726 London
kj16v
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,726
London
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Now now, people! No need for all this! Just listen to these soothing sounds and chill out! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0z671s-XtMBTW, go to 0:46:20 to really feel the love
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403826
15/01/2013 10:01
15/01/2013 10:01
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Julien
Unregistered
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Julien
Unregistered
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To output 790hp out of a 2L and at less than 7300rpm, you need at least 3.5 bar or relative boost pressure(4.5bar of absolute boost pressure).
The big size of the turbo just help to fill in the engine at high pressure/high rpm (and that's not high rpm).
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403831
15/01/2013 10:11
15/01/2013 10:11
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Well, I found out his engine spec, so feel free to debate about it : Original factory block 86mm pistons Crower rods Rossport billet 100mm crank Balance shafts removed ND stage 5 head with +2mm valves and wire rings ND springs & retainers Solid profile cams ND solid lifters ND head gasket COP ignition Motec M800 ECU, all features opened Harrop HTV 1320 supercharger Custom toothed belt drive for supercharger T04z hybrid turbo with custom hotside Shearer manifold T4 flange with twin wastegates AMS manifold with Q45 TB ID 2000 injectors 3.5" side-exit exhaust with alloy boxes, wrapped for heat management Water to air chargecooler with radiator and fans/ducting in boot. Bosch CC pump. 40L fuel tank with built-in swirl pot Twin Bosch 044 pumps, filters and 10mm ID lines feeding each end of the fuel rail. The fact he runs a 100mm crank, makes me think this is a stroker engine (possibly 2.4) so I may have been wrong at the beginning when I say it was a 2.0
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: kj16v]
#1403857
15/01/2013 12:25
15/01/2013 12:25
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Ah, very soothing... but I wasn't in need of it, honestly
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: Begbie]
#1403867
15/01/2013 13:21
15/01/2013 13:21
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Well, I found out his engine spec, so feel free to debate about it : Original factory block 86mm pistons Crower rods Rossport billet 100mm crank Balance shafts removed ND stage 5 head with +2mm valves and wire rings ND springs & retainers Solid profile cams ND solid lifters ND head gasket COP ignition Motec M800 ECU, all features opened Harrop HTV 1320 supercharger Custom toothed belt drive for supercharger T04z hybrid turbo with custom hotside Shearer manifold T4 flange with twin wastegates AMS manifold with Q45 TB ID 2000 injectors 3.5" side-exit exhaust with alloy boxes, wrapped for heat management Water to air chargecooler with radiator and fans/ducting in boot. Bosch CC pump. 40L fuel tank with built-in swirl pot Twin Bosch 044 pumps, filters and 10mm ID lines feeding each end of the fuel rail. The fact he runs a 100mm crank, makes me think this is a stroker engine (possibly 2.4) so I may have been wrong at the beginning when I say it was a 2.0 86mm bore and 100mm stroke makes 2323.8cc which is 16.4% larger capacity than the standard 2 litre (1997.7cc). That would make a difference of course - but even so, claimed power and toque figures are still unobtainium. Or, at least, in the history of petrol engined motorsport NO other engine builders or racing team has ever achieved close the the claimed specific output to date - which is basically saying the same thing.
Last edited by group5lancia; 15/01/2013 13:24.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403873
15/01/2013 13:46
15/01/2013 13:46
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I'll take a look. In doing so I had to look up the AFR for E85 and came across this, which is quite interesting: http://ethanolpro.tripod.com/id213.html
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403876
15/01/2013 13:54
15/01/2013 13:54
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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If 790BHP is not possible at 2.6 bar it is unlikely to be possible at 2.2bar. But it doesn't say at what RPM - so I can't go any further than that. However, I suggest it needs to be run on an independent dyno to get confidence in the real output.
Last edited by group5lancia; 15/01/2013 13:55.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403877
15/01/2013 13:56
15/01/2013 13:56
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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That's a decent link, good stuff E85 it seems.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403879
15/01/2013 14:00
15/01/2013 14:00
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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That's a decent link, good stuff E85 it seems. Not too sure about that: http://zfacts.com/p/436.html
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403890
15/01/2013 14:47
15/01/2013 14:47
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Julien
Unregistered
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Julien
Unregistered
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The fact is that you can run more advance and less rich with e85 due to the higher octane, so at full boost you don't need to run as rich as with fuel and you are able to extract more power of the e85 (compared to RON95/RON98).
On top of that, lancer evo are known to rev "easily" above 8000-8500rpm
Last edited by Julien; 15/01/2013 14:49.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403899
15/01/2013 15:47
15/01/2013 15:47
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Here's another marvelous one! http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=198818Throw the turbo away and it will still make 297BHP at 7780RPM AND make 86.3 ft/lb/litre at the same engine speed. AND 102.7 ft/lb/litre at 5500! Awesome?
Last edited by group5lancia; 15/01/2013 15:53.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403901
15/01/2013 15:56
15/01/2013 15:56
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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It'd be interesting to see your breakdown of maths in relation to the last link. Not my strong point maths, you know this, so if you can spare the time please try and lay it out where I might follow easier.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403905
15/01/2013 16:19
15/01/2013 16:19
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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That engine will have been on an engine / chassis dyno and not on a rolling road. Not that I think it will make any difference in your opinion.
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: Begbie]
#1403908
15/01/2013 16:50
15/01/2013 16:50
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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That engine will have been on an engine / chassis dyno and not on a rolling road. Not that I think it will make any difference in your opinion. I am sure that there can be incorrectly configured/operated engine dynos as well as rolling roads...
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403965
15/01/2013 19:41
15/01/2013 19:41
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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It'd be interesting to see your breakdown of maths in relation to the last link. Not my strong point maths, you know this, so if you can spare the time please try and lay it out where I might follow easier. You must be kidding? Compared to the maths you have done to calculate the optimum designs for intake plenums and exhaust manifolds, calculating simple temperature-compensated pressure ratios is an absolute doddle!
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1403969
15/01/2013 20:00
15/01/2013 20:00
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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No, not kidding at all, maths I just about manage rather than master.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1405433
21/01/2013 15:39
21/01/2013 15:39
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Yelloow
Unregistered
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Yelloow
Unregistered
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Ok, I got another phonecall from the engine builder. And again it's bad news...
It seems that the head is gone too. The camshaft shells/bearings? are all damaged. Also the cams themselves are gone. The lobes have a hight difference of >4.0mm!!! And one of the lobes is completely gone and is polished completely round now. Next to that the valve guides are all damaged. Mainly on the exhaust side.
So the only real option I have is to get a new 2nd hand engine or get a new 2nd hand head. I still want to tune the Coupe to 375, but I have to be realistic about it. I've spend 5 years on this car, hoping the damage wouldn't be all too bad or at least fixable by forged internals.
So who can make my day/year??? I need an 16VT engine or head or a 20VT engine with the loom. And I need them cheap. The forged internals and all complementing parts cost me a ton of money already.
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Re: Complete rebuild 16VT to 16v S4
[Re: ]
#1405440
21/01/2013 16:10
21/01/2013 16:10
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829
kidderminster
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Don't understand why your asking for a 20 vt engine as your forged items won't fit in a 20vt engine if they've been bought for 16v!! Think your best option is to just source a head, I managed it as my old one was also scrap!! http://www.integrale.org.uk/cart139h/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_14Seems reasonable for a refurbished unit!! There is a delta specialist near me, I'll give them a call for you if you like!!?? Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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