https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/58105

Actually lees restrictive than than my proposal would have been:

Any vehicle incapable of, or directed to, travel at a speed less than the national limit during peak hours. This is to include, but not restricted to:

Agricultural machinery
Construction machinery
Mobile home/motor yacht transporters
MoD Convoys not on immediate deployment
Any vehicle requiring a Police escort
Any vehicle subject to a fleet imposed maximum speed limit lower than than the national limit.

Quite happy to listen to other ideas and go for my own petition.

Definately for the big machines, but not sure you can restrict agricultural and construction machinery during working hours since they are working the same hours as us.

What I would like is an enforced law forcing all slow vehicles to pull over at the first opportunity to let a queue pass. It really annoys me when tractors and other slow vehicles waft past perfectly good laybys while 50 irate drivers get hypertension in the huge queue behind.

to include big groups of cyclists?

Hmm ENFORCEMENT - unlikely.

Recently the government has been listening to open debate to allow tractors to travel at 25mph rather than their current 20mph limit.

The NFU case is quite hilarious. One minute they suggest it will save Farmers £billions in Fuel / Time & greenhouse gasses and will make them more efficient, thus benefiting the consumer with lower prices. They then suggest there will be fewer road accidents as people won't need to overtake as often. But surely it would be MORE dangerous to pass a faster vehicle, would it not?

Living in the country I suggest that MOST farmers, around here, already travel at speeds well in excess of this mythical 20mph. Indeed further into the NFU submission to the government on this debate they too suggest that there is anecdotal evidence to show that the current 20mph limit isn't being adhered to by many farmers. This then suggests that our government is wasting time, effort and money looking into removing legislation that Farmers admit is not being followed or enforced. It also makes a bit of a joke of all the savings claims made earlier in the report

Our government currently has a pledge to reduce red tape and remove "unnecessary" burdens on business. Perhaps lobbying them to consider introducing a NEW near unenforceable road restriction, one that would mainly effect business road users will perhaps not receive the most sympathetic of ear?

While we're at it we could petition for a law prohibiting tailgating and requiring all drivers to vacate their lane after overtaking.

Oh, wait - we have one. Has anyone seen it enforced?

I think it is about campaigns and awareness to be honest.

There are lots of rules in the Highway Code which many of us are completely unaware of.

I went on a speed awareness course last year (in lieu of SP30 ticket) and actually learned a fair bit.

For example, I knew that lamp posts indicated a 30 mph limit, but I couldn't remember whether or not it was something to do with the spacing of of the posts.

1. In fact, ANY road with one or more lamp post is a 30mph UNLESS otherwise signposted with another limit.

2. Also, the white painted speed signs (usually 20mph) on roads are ADVISORY only, and are only "law" if surrounded by a red circle. This includes the flashing square speed signs on motorways. They are just advisory. Many people don't know that.... I think that was one I did know.

3. A dual carriage way is not a road with two lanes either side. It can actually be a single lane carriage way. The key indicator of a dual carriage way is a proper central reservation. Only then is it a 70mph limit.

4. Oh, and then there are all the different limits for when you are driving a van, a HGV or towing.

Did any of those surprise you? They did me... and there are plenty of drivers who could do with some awareness.

So, similarly with "Clunk Click Every Trip" and "The Green Cross Code," and the mobile phone causing accident adverts, it would be nice to raise awareness of lesser known laws and courteous driving. The tractor who drives at 25+ holding up 50 cars is definitely worth an advert to shame them into changing. Don't even get me started on caravans .

If you've ever driven in Eire, you'll note that people will actually pull over to the left to let you overtake.... they have a special left lane for this. So it is just a matter of changing habits. How many of us put the seat belts on as an automatic act of muscle memory?

The case for the defence rests me'lud.

......................

PS, I am a life long cyclist, but big groups or even just two riders riding side by side just winds me up. People need to make life easier for each other and have some empathy. Riding two abreast on a narrow road is helping no one.

Many pull over into what effectively is the hard shoulder, which I find extremely dangerous. There is a high death rate on the roads in Ireland and I think this 'rule' of pulling over to the left is one of the reasons for the high rate

as far as i know, driving on the "hard shoulder" is illegal. it just isnt dealt with by the guards.

i also agree with gripped about the cyclist two wide, but it also the passing cars on the left at junctions that wind me up

Oddly enough - I *prefer* cyclists to ride two wide (or when solo, at least a metre from the kerb): it means that cars *can't* squeeze past them and have to perform a proper overtaking manoeuvre rather than forcing them into the ditch.

On the other hand, cyclists should play by the rules too and move over when possible to allow faster traffic past.

And racing on the road is right out...

Is the left lane a hard shoulder then, or is it designed for pulling left to allow overtaking?

My point really is that in Eire there is a culture to allow people past you. So, I'd like it if people had a similar attitude over here. Rather than the pig headed attitude that many people have.... which justs winds people up into making dangerous overtakes.

to my knowledge its neither strictly speaking, (single lane road that is). the line marks the edge of the road. the "hard shoulder" varies in width and disappears at sometimes at junctions or whenever. it can be used for cyclists or pedistrians where no pavement exisits.

although i agree with the attitude of using it, unfortunately it has lead to many deaths. i have seen it used as a picnic stop on one occassion.

In the UK, the hard shoulder exists (and has legal status) only on motorways.

Anywhere else, it's just a spare bit of road of no defined function.



And as such, having just overtaken me doing ninety, it is completely unnecessary to slow down to sixty as you pass the speed camera...

I don't think the lamp posts point is correct in absolute terms, whilst it is a sensible rule of thumb.

In preparing my nephew for his test only a short while ago I found I was filling in what I thought were huge gaps in knowledge. It's always been about training people to pass the test - ie what the speed limit on a dual carriageway is, rather than helping them understand what makes a carriageway a dual carriageway one is.

On the cycling point, I have no problem with riding two abreast providing it is not impeding safe overtaking. If you are single file and it is not a safe overtaking place, you may be increasing the danger by encouraging overtaking and creating a longer 'vehicle' to overtake. The problem is there are a large number of drivers under the impression cyclists should be single file and their belief cyclists who are riding abreast are breaking the highway code annoys them (increasing risk) even when it does not impede safe overtaking.

Well, the Highway Code advises that street lights usually mean the limit is 30 mph unless there are signs showing otherwise. So, I would say it is correct. On the course, we were shown photos of a road with a solitary lamp post and a house nearby. It was a country road, so you'd normally assume a 60 limit. But due to the lamp and in the absence of a sign stating otherwise, the limit is 30mph.

I agree that riding 2 abreast is fine so long as you aren't making it difficult for cars to pass. If you are doing 10mph on a bike, you should not take up a full lane if the road is narrow. It is common sence that if a car is behind you, the last thing you want is to get in the way. It is like being a pedestrian.

I am a motorbiker as well, and the opposite is true. On a motorbike you take up the full lane "centre positive" altering your postion depending on corners and other hazards. But of course, on a bike (125cc+) you can go at a reasonable speed, so there is no need to let cars overtake

Unless the limit was posted as 30 it would be a 60 limit. Section 82 of the Road Traffic Regulation act says that the street lights must be within 200 yards of each other for the area to be considered built-up (and therefore subject to a 30mph limit).



More than that, when you learn to ride a motorbike you're advised to avoid riding too far to the left of your lane, because it encourages cars to 'squeeze' past, even if there's not enough space to overtake properly. For the same reason I'd say cyclists should use the centre of their lane or ride 2 abreast; it's simply safer than having cars force you into the kerb.

Couldn't agree more, Andrew - cars squeeze past cyclists and in many cases force oncoming traffic to avoid them while they do it.

Gripped - I would 100% agree with "usually" (it's the ANY road UNLESS that I disagree with).

Where I live there are no public street lamps, it is a narrow, residential country lane with blind corners, in an area popular with walkers, cyclists and horses. It's a 60 limit. However, anyone who wants to drive down it in haste is the hazard rather than those who cannot reach that speed.

So what we are saying, is it basically the drivers who are at fault most of the time !

"MoD Convoys not on immediate deployment" .... hard one as they still have to move durring exercises and the TA have a majority of their exercises at weekends...........

I don't think so, but I do think there can be poor instruction (eg the gaps in knowledge the course you went on addressed and then the incorrect teaching you were given on the course). Also the error of seeing speed as emblematic of driving skill.

The 'better' I become as a driver, cyclist etc the more errors (including errors of judgment) I recognise I make.

It is much easier to focus on modifying the habits of other road users rather than our own.

Surely we would be better arguing for cyclists, horses etc to be taxed?

Ultimately its the fossil fueled carriages that get taxed to pay for the road upkeep? I see miles of cycle lanes being built - and hardly used! - so who's paying for that?

Plus if there was some system in place, at least the government would be able to analysis the data. From which it would be more apparant if allowing certain modes of transport on particular roads, is safe or not.

Your VED does not pay for the road upkeep. Road upkeep comes out of general taxation. That is another canard that causes tension between different road users.

whats does the road tax / ved goes towards?

http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/where-does-your-road-tax-go

seems to be all into the main purse to start with, probably ate at by second home claims.

however we still have to pay it

Only if every MP is claiming upwards of £7.5m per annum. Even in London that's a pretty expensive 2nd home

It is related to the emissions your vehicle produces, not road use. I pay it on my vehicles even though I create less by using my bike. I don't pay it on my bike, horse*, pogo stick* or each time I happen to step off the pavement, because it is not relevant.

I accept horses create certain emissions, but if we were taxing the creation of that product politicians would never have enough to buy a duck house, let alone first and second homes.

* imaginary.

Not sure the horse analogy is a good one, Mark - when the car came in at the beginning of the last century, it was seen as a huge relief from the nasty stinking horse exhaust.

A little googling tells me a horse produces (all measurements approx!) 32 cubic metres of exhaust per year. The street surface area of Greater London is 36,700 hectares.

If one person in ten keeps a horse, that's a million horses, and at the end of a year, that's 11.5cm deep in horse exhaust. Probably it piles up in some places, less deep in others...

This is almost certainly an underestimate: it doesn't include horses used for carriage, for haulage, for growing big enough to pull the carriage or the bus, for the two horses waiting for the one that's working, and no doubt lots of other things I don't know about horses.

So it's probably a good idea your horse is imaginary!

Hmm, food for thought*. I also have a vested interest in horse emissions not being taxed (and vested interests tend to underlie our take on things) - we take deliveries of the stuff! Mrs J's car is known affectionately as the manure wagon (no, not because of who occasionally sits on the passenger seat).

*lasagne?

Doesn't France have a law about the number of vehicles stuck behind you?

One if the more stupid things the Scottish government is planning is to install average speed cameras on the A9. Whilst this might seem to be a sensible thing to do, most of the 115 miles between Inverness and Perth is single carriageway. The trucks will then be forced to do 40mph whilst the cars can do 60mph. Following at truck all the way down will add an hour to your 2-hour car journey. That might just cause frustration...it will also make the short sections that are dual carriageway madness as people try to pass. Rather than reduce accidents, most regular A9 users think it will increase accidents (currently trucks tend to push along and the limited ones (like Tesco) are pretty good at pulling over regularly)

But they don't need to be on the road during rush hour. And as someone who has commanded convoys I can safely say that. An exercise is just that. We managed in Germany where HGVs were banned from the roads from Sat Lunch to Sun midnight, it just takes planning.

As for the TA, no reason why they can't move during the night at weekends.

Prime example tonight, the [cloud9] driving a tractor on the A31 from Bere Regis past the Drax Estate doing 20-25, who made no attempt to pull over and let the traffic through. Sheer [cloud9] ignorance.