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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194822
20/09/2006 01:56
20/09/2006 01:56
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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Reset your ECU and pitch the lambda probe. Then your ECU won´t be able to re-adjust again - I think this is the only solution... I had this problem, too. Then I changed to a programmable ECU. Juergen
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194823
20/09/2006 02:01
20/09/2006 02:01
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Quote:
I think the most you can get extra out of them is 5-10% due to design limitations of the injectors themselves??
Joe
I'm not so sure Joe, it would be a good idea to flow test a set of standard 20vt injectors at various pressures e.g 3, 3.8, 4 etc. just to see exactly how much they can flow and what the spray pattern is like.
The calculations made are accurate assuming the injectors can perform in a linear manner... I guess that is the question though
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194824
20/09/2006 02:07
20/09/2006 02:07
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,588 Essex
Rog20VT
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,588
Essex
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joe - paul has also mentioned to me about the 6th injector option when i couldnt find enough fuel for my car. luckily turned out to be simply a corrupt novitec, running lean the whole rev range so i didnt investigate it any further. paul was saying that it is enough to give the car that extra bit of fuel to make it safe, but thats all it would do. i can see begbie's concern and lets face it, it is a shortcut to sorting out a fuelling issue and i certainly wouldnt consider it whilst there are other options.
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194825
20/09/2006 02:45
20/09/2006 02:45
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yep true enough, it must be soo annoying to be on the cusp of the fuelling of the 20vt injectors. Joe
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194826
20/09/2006 12:42
20/09/2006 12:42
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Good morning, About std injectors and high fuel pressure, I had my car in RR last spring with std injectors and app. 3.8 bar fuel pressure. I could "only" receive 340 bhp with A/F 14.5, so it was really lean run . With that chip, how it has been programmed, the safe bhp limit would have been near 320 bhp. So I think it depends on base chip, what can you achieve with higher fuel pressure. Extra injector, my friend build in this summer four (4) Turbo Uno injectors into his Coupe with TO4 turbo, he added also four relays, which are functioning according to the pressure. One relay or solenoid for each injector, then he adjusted the system so that first injector open in 1 bar, second in 1.2 bar and third in 1.4 bar. Fouth injector was for reserve, depending of AF readings. They are working very well, you can see it directly from AF meter, when they opens. Yesterday I raised my fuel pressure up to 3.6 bar and my feeling is that I went to the wrong way. No problems with idling, but when accelerating with full throttle, I feel it much heavier, like I have extra 500 lb in my car. So back to lower fuel pressure. - Jari -
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194827
20/09/2006 14:11
20/09/2006 14:11
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Hi Jari ,... I think you ought to be able to adjust your fuel pressure from within your car bet a day doesnt go by, that your fuelling doesnt change I've heard of using Saab cold start injectors, boost activated above 1.2bar before, similar to your friends setup. Joe
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194829
20/09/2006 18:46
20/09/2006 18:46
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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rs500 came equipped with 8 injectors (although not connected). Large injectors have poor control at low speed i.e. small pulse width, leading to poor idle and poor fuel mixing. 2 stage injection is the pro way, large injectors are a simple way.
rich
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194830
20/09/2006 21:15
20/09/2006 21:15
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Just had a chat to Claudio at Perfect Touch about the latest unichip. He says as a general rule they can control injectors 50% larger than the standard items using them, so moving up to 16vt jobbies from 20vt ones should be fine.
They have them in stock and ready to go. The bad news is that they are more expensive than the older model at £395 fitted, and then mapping at £110 / hour.
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194831
20/09/2006 21:24
20/09/2006 21:24
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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that's good Simon isnt it Nigel, you should be able to get a good £100 for your Unichip s/h Joe
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194832
20/09/2006 22:01
20/09/2006 22:01
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Why is running a higher fuel pressure any different from fitting bigger injectors? I'd have throught the ECU would have been equally confused as for a certain injection period more fuel will be injected giving the same problems as fitting larger injectors John
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194834
20/09/2006 22:21
20/09/2006 22:21
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Damn.. you read my mind Jimbo...
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194835
20/09/2006 22:29
20/09/2006 22:29
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194836
21/09/2006 01:30
21/09/2006 01:30
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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I've now taken to twice-daily resetting of the ECU Its the only way to keep close to PTS's correct mapping I need to contact Dastek to see if they fancy doing me a discount on the new-fangled kit - perhaps they'll use me as a subsidised guinea pig Anyone got details of who to speak to and a contact number?
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194838
21/09/2006 02:07
21/09/2006 02:07
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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I tell you again...Reset your ECU and pitch the lambda probe! I had this problem for 1 whole year - you map a new chip... functioning wonderful...but after some driving with normal load your ECU will learn, that you are too rich and will adapt! Thus we programmed ~30 chips - eyery time with the same result. I got richer and richer with my chips... very lean at low revs and very very rich at high revs... Thus I had some problems at the beginning after installing the chip - because it was too richt at high revs... but after some time the ECU tried to adapt... but could not adapt enough - the chip now almost was satisfying... nevertheless this was no good solution. Meanwhile I think that you can avoid this problem by pitching lambda probe... then you don´t have the closed loop any more... I would try it juergen
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194840
21/09/2006 03:10
21/09/2006 03:10
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Also, I imagine the ECU would throw a permanent error code if the lambda was disconnected
not if you connect it to the - (ground)
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194841
21/09/2006 03:11
21/09/2006 03:11
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728 N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
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Nigel, why not try phoning Dastek direct and chatting to the guys there? Presumably they have some experience having done a lot of work on Fergies car. contact details
Last edited by mattB; 21/09/2006 03:11.
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194842
21/09/2006 12:06
21/09/2006 12:06
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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Disconnect it (connector near battery in a left-hand-car)... you won´t get a failure code (as I know, maybe ground it). Then the engine will run according to the map of the chip - if it is well mapped you will have no problem regarding lower revs etc...
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194843
21/09/2006 16:18
21/09/2006 16:18
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,576 Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
paul
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,576
Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
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check them out for 2 if you want,I was waiting on the new unichip for my next step,Barbz` hybrid turbo,3" elbow,bigger injectors,work done on the manifold, and running methanol in my aquamist
was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194844
21/09/2006 16:25
21/09/2006 16:25
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I've run my car with the lamda disconnected Nigel - not for long, but it seemed to be OK. Worth a go!
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194845
21/09/2006 22:29
21/09/2006 22:29
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I drove my car for about 70 miles with the lambda disconnected without problems.
The AFR gauge showed a constant stoich measurement (which is how I realised that it wasn't connected)
Also I might add that when my lambda went to heaven - I wasn't getting any error codes come up.
Chris
Last edited by Nobby; 21/09/2006 22:31.
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194846
22/09/2006 14:25
22/09/2006 14:25
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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Quote:
Surely this would result in all sorts of awful running at lower revs - the whole idea of the lambda is to allow the ECU to hunt for stoich - without it, the ECU will just deliver what it THINKS the engine wants, not what it really needs.
it's just the same as your 70%+ throttle maps which also do not use the lambda sensor. As long as the ECU is mapped it will be fine (unless you change fuel grade of course). Most people running aftermarket ECUs do not use lambda sensors at all as their maps are already fine-tuned for their setup, and so there is no benefit in using the signal.
John
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194847
22/09/2006 15:12
22/09/2006 15:12
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
OP
Forum veteran
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OP
Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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I always said I wouldn't try to cover new Coupe tuning ground - I was always happy to let the likes of JohnS, Barbz, Mavric etc do this for me. I don't generally have the time or money to keep trying new stuff out.
However, it looks like I might be the first to try a stock ECU and a Unichip without a lambda
John - do you run a lambda? Do you know if the likes of Barbz and Mavric run one?
I have a new problem - I think it might be related.
On VERY light throttle openings, the car is either eccaerating or decelerating, and the transition between the two is very jerk (its actually a PITA to drive)
So - I can be trundling along in say 3rd gear at 20mph, and the ECU will just decide to cut the fuel (my AFR meter drops off the scale) A couple of seconds later (when the car has slowed a bit), it cuts in again and the AFR meter shows eighht or nine LEDs. This will happen about once every five seconds
In 1st gear its even worse - trying to hold say 5mph, the car will accelerate / decelerate / accelerate / decelerate every one or two seconds, without moving the throttle pedal at all.
Any theories?
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Re: 16vt injectors in 20vt - problems
#194851
22/09/2006 15:37
22/09/2006 15:37
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581 Taiwan
DavidL
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581
Taiwan
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I've experienced this as well, it seems tobe something to do with the ECU trying to set the long term fuel trim and short term fuel trim right. I tried testing it with the SAFC II and with the stock lambda, it didn't matter if I were to turn the correction value up to +50% or -50%, at idle, adjusting the SAFC II have no effect on the integrated lambda reading, but when you start moving, the lambda will constantly be changing, no matter how you adjust the SAFC II output. The ECU expects to see an oscillating value of 0.2~0.7V (successful cross count value over 0.45V) to ensure that the car is fuelling right under normal, non-WOT conditions. Therefore, when we modify the injectors or use the SAFC-II or other computers to try to alter this signal, it will inevitably result in a incorrect normal condition (manifested by the integrated lambda value, with 0 being ideal, and a negative for rich conditions while a positive reading for lean conditions. Just remember that for Lambda=1 =14.7, so for a smaller lambda, it means rich conditions, vice versa). Now, in order to fool the computer and yet achieve the ARF we desire, we need a wide band lambda, such as the LM-1 to send out an analogue signal which matches the expectation of the ECU (Stock value: 0.2~0.7V = 14.7 +/- 0.5, new value = 0.2~0.7V = 12.5 +/- 0.5). By allowing the analogue to mimic what the stock ECU sees, it will not try to interfere the new AFR that you have mapped the car to run at. Anyway, it's just a simple way of explaining it, more detailed version will be available when I've done the conversion next month. I hope that helps.
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