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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Welformed]
#591350
17/04/2008 14:59
17/04/2008 14:59
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ryangt
Unregistered
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ryangt
Unregistered
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wow with this turbo i made 375bhp on my 200sx with well over 300 torque. my gt28r(baby turbo ) is putting out more power than your big one , maybe becuase my set-up is decent. no short cut v-bands ..... only joking with ya
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591392
17/04/2008 15:28
17/04/2008 15:28
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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I had no idea about the v-band adaptor, but it sounds straight foward enough to sort out, with the help of a mechanic... I also don't believe their RR's tbh. At northampton motorsport I got 260Bhp @ base boost. The Coop has always been getting faster and each RR suggests that, except at PT. The on road performance just doesn't match the power they say it has. I mean, would you expect a 289Bhp (-12Bhp from the 301 when the airbox is on) Coop to let a really trying E46 M3 get a jump on me at 55, but I'm then able to just cruise by, by mid 4th gear?
A 340Bhp, 300lb/ft powered thread hijacker
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Welformed]
#591403
17/04/2008 15:35
17/04/2008 15:35
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h2ypr
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h2ypr
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I had no idea about the v-band adaptor, but it sounds straight foward enough to sort out, with the help of a mechanic... I also don't believe their RR's tbh. At northampton motorsport I got 260Bhp @ base boost. The Coop has always been getting faster and each RR suggests that, except at PT. The on road performance just doesn't match the power they say it has. I mean, would you expect a 289Bhp (-12Bhp from the 301 when the airbox is on) Coop to let a really trying E46 M3 get a jump on me at 55, but I'm then able to just cruise by, by mid 4th gear? Yeah, because mid 4th gear is around 110-115mph (on 5 speed) and he probably didnt wanna stack it. WF, PT rollers are used as a benchmark generally, because they are dastek rollers. I personally would stop thinking they are wrong and start planning on how to release the extra power. If the airbox only released 12bhp, i would deal with the exhaust first and Nigels logic is pretty good tbh. Ross
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591412
17/04/2008 15:40
17/04/2008 15:40
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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Doesn't it depend on the setup though, not the quality of the equipment? Northampton motorsport use Dastek rollers too. I think I've been on other rollers at other times though - Sun Microsystems workstations linked up to them?
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Nigel]
#591424
17/04/2008 15:49
17/04/2008 15:49
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h2ypr
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h2ypr
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It REALLY is about time we all started using measured wheel power, rather than guesstimated flywheel figures
Yeah cause its that easy Nigel. Maha Dynometer wheel powers are significantly lower but their flywheel figures are on par with the dastek rollers and others. It comes down to the same thing again, that RR needs done on the same day with all the cars in attendance for a direct comparison. Btw, i doubt you and flea have the same WHP figures, as his 1/4 mile is a full second quicker. Ross
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591436
17/04/2008 16:01
17/04/2008 16:01
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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Well this is it. Some people use RR's to given them bonafide results, but I use them as just an estimate (and diag) as it's real world performance that matters. And as I say, I just can't see how a estimated 289Bhp Coop could be quicker at high speeds than an M3... and it's not like I've only compared to these lately either...
I just wonder how much my light wheels screw results (2 Kgs lighter per wheel with tyres than std). I'd expect the extra spin up of lighter wheels to be opposite and equal to the spin down when calculating transmission losses - cancelling each other out.
Sounds like G-force would've given me 330Bhp by that calculation (250Bhp atw @ PT).
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Welformed]
#591459
17/04/2008 16:28
17/04/2008 16:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
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I have spoken at length to the MD at Dastek with some interesting observations. The idea behind the Dastek rollers is to produce highly accurate, sensitive and repeatable flywheel figures. He admitted as much that their wheel figures are higher than the industry average which is simply a product of their technology. He had a lot of respect for the MAHA dynos (except on price as they cost twice as much!!) and was happy to concede that they are also designed for accurate flywheel measurement albeit with much lower wheel figures, again a product of their technology. This is in contrast to the American and Aussie dynos e.g. DynoDynamics, Dynojet, Mustang etc. which prefer to work with wheel power almost exclusively.
I have used two different Dastek dynos and consistently put out between 415-425bhp depending on boost level. I have seen 435bhp on the Dastek with pump fuel with 380lbs/ft but in general 425bhp is the max on my current setup as a rule. Regarding my 480bhp run at Powerstation, there are reasons for this and it is has nothing to do with the rollers. The day was 0-1 degrees on a cold December morning. The car was nicely warmed on the motorway and it went straight on the rollers with 1.7bar It was a simple power run, 4th gear all the way reaching 365lbs/ft, exactly the same peak torque as the Dastek rollers. The ONLY difference was the torque didn't drop off very quickly holding it to redline. This was due to a very dense, cold charge on a warm engine i.e. perfect conditions. The car didn't produce more torque it simply retained it longer i.e. more efficient.
Between rollers, especially in the UK, I would not be inclined to compare wheel figures at all. The Dastek and MAHA dynos can differ by as much as 15% at the wheels, in my case this translated to around 35bhp!! As a general rule Dastek read too high and MAHA too low for wheel power but the flypower should be very close all other conditions equal.
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Flea]
#591475
17/04/2008 16:45
17/04/2008 16:45
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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P.s. I'm still up for a comparison if you want WF. Ross
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591480
17/04/2008 16:51
17/04/2008 16:51
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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OP
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Sure. Pop down whenever you're ready. We can go and hunt some pork(ers). btw, "MAHA"???
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591516
17/04/2008 17:27
17/04/2008 17:27
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Btw, i doubt you and flea have the same WHP figures, as his 1/4 mile is a full second quicker. IIRC, Fleas's very impressive quarter times were achieved on Mavrics Hoosier wrinkle-wall drag tyres and using race fuel the fact remains that within a couple of weeks of each other, on the same dyno, Flea got about 395 wheel bhp (about 420 calculated at the fly) and I got 390 (405 at the fly)
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Nigel]
#591521
17/04/2008 17:32
17/04/2008 17:32
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
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Btw, i doubt you and flea have the same WHP figures, as his 1/4 mile is a full second quicker. IIRC, Fleas's very impressive quarter times were achieved on Mavrics Hoosier wrinkle-wall drag tyres and using race fuel the fact remains that within a couple of weeks of each other, on the same dyno, Flea got about 395 wheel bhp (about 420 calculated at the fly) and I got 390 (405 at the fly) Well then, i'll just head up to crail with hoosiers and get a 12.35 on my 28r Ross
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Flea]
#591535
17/04/2008 17:42
17/04/2008 17:42
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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terminal speed usually gives a better picture of outright power.
End of the day Flea and Nigel both have very well sorted coupe's.
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591542
17/04/2008 17:49
17/04/2008 17:49
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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...apart from the snapping belts!
"Flea got about 395 wheel bhp (about 420 calculated at the fly) and I got 390 (405 at the fly)". Surely those transmission losses are well out?
A 340Bhp, 300lb/ft powered thread hijacker
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Welformed]
#591551
17/04/2008 18:00
17/04/2008 18:00
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ryangt
Unregistered
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ryangt
Unregistered
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sorry but saying you beat a m3 so the rollers must be out is mad!!!????? welformed i have been telling you for a long time on the road doesnt mean a lot so many differnt things can happen , his car running bad , the bloke cant shift gears at redline , might be shifting at 5000rpm , bloke not 100% best driver in the world and maybe doesnt want to push his car to the limits but only to where he feels safe . i have seen funny things on the roads past week a saxo beating a s2000 down some twisty roads and as i got to the end of road he had spun out onto grass looking like he just shit himself, why not becuase the saxo is quicker or a better set-up car but the fact that the bloke was a better driver .........
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591559
17/04/2008 18:12
17/04/2008 18:12
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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Yeah I know. But you can only go by what happens. The M3 was clearly an auto (double kick-down was obvious), so that eliminates using or changing gear properly. And I'm pretty certain he kept it planted as he wasn't best pleased to see me go past! I'm sure I'll get comparisons against other stuff in the near future... ... and that is where you start to build your real-world picture. I've also played with many M3's in my time in various states of tune. They can't all be sick or not being driven properly, yet the performance of all of them was very consistent - certainly when I know I am consistent. Before these mods it was almost dead even until +120 speeds, now with the car running higher boost, feeling significantly faster, it's a different story so far. 289Bhp (IMO) just doesn't explain that at all. Not even close. 320+Bhp would be more like it...
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Welformed]
#591567
17/04/2008 18:22
17/04/2008 18:22
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
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...apart from the snapping belts!
"Flea got about 395 wheel bhp (about 420 calculated at the fly) and I got 390 (405 at the fly)". Surely those transmission losses are well out? Looking at my graphs I have one that shows 392 @ wheels and 420 @ fly so a transmission loss of 7.2% which is common for high powered cars on a Dastek. My highest run was 398 @ wheels with 435bhp which is 9.2% loss. Nigel, I think you must be out on your wheel figure as that would be a loss of only 3.8% Welformed your transmission losses equate to 12.4% which is still lower than the industry average but to be expected on a Dastek.
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Flea]
#591573
17/04/2008 18:29
17/04/2008 18:29
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591598
17/04/2008 18:55
17/04/2008 18:55
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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Those losses still seem way too low. Anyone know what the official transmission loss is on a Coop as std? Yours looks about spot on tho Ross.
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Welformed]
#591599
17/04/2008 18:56
17/04/2008 18:56
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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Those losses still seem way too low. Anyone know what the official transmission loss is on a Coop as std? That depends on the rollers used... Ross
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591602
17/04/2008 18:59
17/04/2008 18:59
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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That's the point. Transmission loss is transmission loss. It's only supposed to be working out the resistance when free-wheeling from the redline. It will vary car to car of course - with light wheels I'd expect my transmission losses to be lower than std.
It should be as calcuable as WHP and FHP.
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: Flea]
#591899
18/04/2008 02:01
18/04/2008 02:01
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TipoBoy
Unregistered
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TipoBoy
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The only figure you should be interested in and that can be accurately measured and compared is the wheel horse power.
It's the power at the wheels that moves you not the power at the flywheel.
The rolling road I used here takes the wheels off and the machine bolts directly to the hubs. This avoids any slippage, tyre pressure or pinching issues. The weight of the wheels I think will only affect accelleration.
You can just as easily compare different mods using the wheel horse power. However you can't compare against another cars flywheel figure (manufacturers or calculated/estimated).
John
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#591970
18/04/2008 03:08
18/04/2008 03:08
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davidub
Unregistered
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davidub
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TBH, I don't think PT's rollers are that conservative. I got 317 BHP with a GT28RSR and a boost leak. I also have the benefit of comparing a std. E46 M3 back-to-back with the aforementioned Coupe and the top end of the M3 and N/A throttle response is better, although no match for the 1.4 bar on-boost midrange of the Coupe
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#593302
19/04/2008 22:56
19/04/2008 22:56
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TurboJ
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TurboJ
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What is your spec as from what I have read so far the turbo is overkill for your setup? I think the GT71R is for people who have gone all the way with their 2.0. You would be better of with changing to an RS.
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#596175
23/04/2008 06:58
23/04/2008 06:58
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westcoupe
Unregistered
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westcoupe
Unregistered
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i have the a gt28rs with the blue flame from turbo back
with the vband adapter and one of timpeons fmic and i had
my car map at pt and managed 340bhp fly 295bhp wheel figures
with the boost set to 1.4 on my avcr but doesnt see 1.4bar
on the gauge tho and it drops off to just under 1.2 and my
car dont stick around,would i be able to make more power
with the H&S down pipe not that i want any more power on my
standard internals,but to be honest i didnt think no one
ran the 2871r on standard internals and i cant beleive you
dont have a fmic or a air filter,they are a must on a
bigger turbo
Last edited by westcoupe; 23/04/2008 07:00.
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#596237
23/04/2008 13:57
23/04/2008 13:57
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MattW
Unregistered
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MattW
Unregistered
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he does have a FMIC now, pro alloy...
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Re: Off to Perfect Touch tomorrow...
[Re: ]
#601152
29/04/2008 15:58
29/04/2008 15:58
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,228 Anywhere that has roads
Welformed
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OP
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So you have the 5 stud 2.25" vband adapter?
See even with this supposed restriction and the airbox, my car doesn't seem to be making the power or torque it should.
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