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16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
#1002109
16/03/2010 23:19
16/03/2010 23:19
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,895 New Zealand
Saint
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My life on the forum
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Posts: 1,895
New Zealand
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Well, I have always had doubts about the 16vt inlet manifold, unlike the 20vt it does a hard "gooseneck" turn into the head and looks very restrictivee but looks can be.... Anyway, a few have swapped to the grale inlet manifold for a gain of circa 15bhp (dyno Vas) which is a more direct design. Anyway guy croft is building a grale at the moment and even the grale manifold is proving to be too poor flowing to match a standard un-ported 16vt head http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2089So the question is how much of the good porting work would be un-done by the standard 16v manifold? and who is going to build the first custom intake?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1002121
16/03/2010 23:34
16/03/2010 23:34
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Nobby
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Nobby
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Whats Begbie done on his car - isn't that a coupe engine bay in the photos?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1002140
17/03/2010 00:00
17/03/2010 00:00
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,895 New Zealand
Saint
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yeah - it is a coupe, it is Honza's NA 16v but that manifold is no longer available. Not sure what Begbie has done, maybe he will answer, but this is the 16vt standard manifold (all credit to paddy 147 for the pic which google found) and my Grale one I brought to replace it so has anyone done any work around a different design and is it weakness link with this vs head work etc
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1002174
17/03/2010 02:42
17/03/2010 02:42
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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So what is better then? The grale manifold or the 16vt stock?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1002179
17/03/2010 06:39
17/03/2010 06:39
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580 Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
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There must be some benefits to headwork as the port is not free to flow its maximum all the time as there is a big valve in the way. The manifold has no such restriction. At low lift I would assume the manifold could easily outflow the port and hence work to the port/seats/valves etc could still increase cylinder filling.
But it's obvious from the GC thread than there is no point developing the ports to flow 160cfm if you intend on using the stock manifold.
Last edited by Scuderia; 17/03/2010 06:42.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1002282
17/03/2010 11:41
17/03/2010 11:41
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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So best bet is to get a Grale inlet manifold and have it ported?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1002296
17/03/2010 11:54
17/03/2010 11:54
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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So best bet is to get a Grale inlet manifold and have it ported? If you read Guy Croft's post, you will read he can't port it, as it needs to be split to be able to do this.
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1002313
17/03/2010 12:32
17/03/2010 12:32
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Nobby
Unregistered
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Surely if its that much trouble (and your not bound by race regs on use of OE engines) then it'd be easier to get in inlet manifold and runner purpose built?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1002327
17/03/2010 13:10
17/03/2010 13:10
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Of course, but how much money do you want to throw at a one of a kind inlet manifold?
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1002379
17/03/2010 15:07
17/03/2010 15:07
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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DidCoop
Unregistered
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So best bet for a "bolt on" job having read the post would be to put a straight Grale inlet on and generate circa 15bhp?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1002396
17/03/2010 15:37
17/03/2010 15:37
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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No, it would probably be better to get the kappa 16vt inlet manifold
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1002743
17/03/2010 23:46
17/03/2010 23:46
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
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Of course, but how much money do you want to throw at a one of a kind inlet manifold? Not a cheap item due to bespoke hand made nature but not mental.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1002746
17/03/2010 23:51
17/03/2010 23:51
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
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No, it would probably be better to get the kappa 16vt inlet manifold The Kappa manifold flows good enough for a ambitious engine build BUT it tunes at the wrong rpm for that kind of engine. You are afterall asking a lot of the 2 litre engine so rpm comes into play. It also has a less than satisfactory plenum volume and without modification won't accept a suitable throttle.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1002793
18/03/2010 01:34
18/03/2010 01:34
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580 Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
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Sidedraft manifolds are available.
Fitting a sidedraft manifold and twin carbs was always the starting point when modifying older Fiat twin cam engines.
Last edited by Scuderia; 18/03/2010 01:34.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1002904
18/03/2010 10:13
18/03/2010 10:13
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Of course, but how much money do you want to throw at a one of a kind inlet manifold? Not a cheap item due to bespoke hand made nature but not mental. What sort of cost are we talking Nick?
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1002947
18/03/2010 11:03
18/03/2010 11:03
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Until they are finished and the costs are known I can't be sure, they'll be in the region of a custom exhaust manifold such as you know about.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1003113
18/03/2010 14:21
18/03/2010 14:21
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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you want to keep your hands in your pockets beggars and leave them there. Steve has a point, you could use a GC DCOE manifold but have a plenum and TB made up instead of an airbox - the inlets would need bell mouths/radius entry (unlike this cr*p http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb91/.../Picture013.jpg) , generally I liken it to the seirra cosworth intlet, http://ferriday.co.uk/Cos_manif.jpgThe injector bosses would need to be added, and not have the TB's, Alloy air box instead of this set up oh and Paul, the tipo manifold I had was ported by GC, the same as Begbie's - its now melted down and used for coke cans I suspect.
Last edited by sediciRich; 19/03/2010 21:14.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1003336
18/03/2010 19:41
18/03/2010 19:41
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 220 Czech republic
Honza
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 220
Czech republic
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No, it would probably be better to get the kappa 16vt inlet manifold The Kappa manifold flows good enough for a ambitious engine build BUT it tunes at the wrong rpm for that kind of engine. You are afterall asking a lot of the 2 litre engine so rpm comes into play. It also has a less than satisfactory plenum volume and without modification won't accept a suitable throttle. I´ve found, that it moves peak torque of my engine from 4500 (standart coupe man.) to around 5500-6000. But engine could rev. happili to 8000 - wich was almost imposible with standart manifold. Because of lack of the air engine died before 7500rmp... Now I am also playing with idea to create larger plenum - i didn´t measured the volume, but it seems that it is quite small (according to my rough calc .. 1,2l..) - in comparsion with similar manifold of S2000/1600 group or peugeot/renault sport manifolds... and general rules , that plenum should be at least 1-2times larger than swept volume.. some pictures of peugeot sport, S2000/1600man.
20 years with yellow 2.0 16v NA 22 years with black SEDICIVALVOLE
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1003441
18/03/2010 22:18
18/03/2010 22:18
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Didn't know you were developing a batch of them. Could quite well be interested then. I'll send you some info when I'm getting closer to them being done.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1003458
18/03/2010 22:34
18/03/2010 22:34
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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"Steve has a point, you could use a GC DCOE manifold but have a plenum and TB made up instead of an airbox - the inlets would need bell mouths, generally I liken it to the seirra cosworth intlet, http://ferriday.co.uk/Cos_manif.jpg"
bell mouths being needed is potentially something to expand on Rich, nice for sure but not the end of the road. I say they have origins in a search for the desired length of runner which inturn required them to protrude into the plenum so as to enable the unit to fit in the space available. A worthy compromise in this situation. That being said thats what i'm doing now as I know people want this feature, need it they don't in my opinion."
"The injector bosses would need to be added, and not have the TB's, suppose its similar to what Nik did." Not far different to what I did, the biggest hassle was trying to balance the compromised location of the extra injectors. The Kappa manifold has it injectors pointing very nicely at the back of the valve so the secondary injectors could never be as perfect. An enthusiast machinist had the patience to set them up as close as we could fathom but still I'd look for improvement. I'd like to see how injecting the secondary fuel from a further distance might work, the 16v coupe runners lend themselves to this at the same time as having the longest SSR possible.
Nik
Last edited by 1NRO; 20/03/2010 02:44.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1003460
18/03/2010 22:34
18/03/2010 22:34
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Kenneth
Unregistered
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Kenneth
Unregistered
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I have used the Kappa oneand got it modf to 8 injectors, and 88 mm throttle.. I know it can't match a custom made one.. but er see how far it can go. i take a better pic in the morning
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Honza]
#1003468
18/03/2010 22:45
18/03/2010 22:45
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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No, it would probably be better to get the kappa 16vt inlet manifold The Kappa manifold flows good enough for a ambitious engine build BUT it tunes at the wrong rpm for that kind of engine. You are afterall asking a lot of the 2 litre engine so rpm comes into play. It also has a less than satisfactory plenum volume and without modification won't accept a suitable throttle. I´ve found, that it moves peak torque of my engine from 4500 (standart coupe man.) to around 5500-6000. But engine could rev. happili to 8000 - wich was almost imposible with standart manifold. Because of lack of the air engine died before 7500rmp... Now I am also playing with idea to create larger plenum - i didn´t measured the volume, but it seems that it is quite small (according to my rough calc .. 1,2l..) - in comparsion with similar manifold of S2000/1600 group or peugeot/renault sport manifolds... and general rules , that plenum should be at least 1-2times larger than swept volume.. some pictures of peugeot sport, S2000/1600man. I can believe your results, right where I would expect the move in peak power to be for the length it is. Plenum volume for a turbo engine is more about supplying demand, the 2 x capacity is a NA theory. I like your link, I like collecting pics like that too. Here's a full on blinger for the collection http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/throttlebody-1.jpgNik
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1003582
19/03/2010 09:02
19/03/2010 09:02
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Nik PM sent
re. the last point, my target was to fit it in the space I had and thats the length of the manifold supplied by GC the AT bodies were as short as possible to clear the injector rail, and the trumpets were for a Px 600 airbox which is rubbish to be honest, the reverie one could take longer trumpets, even so they are still too short. It wasnt a road car and I wanted to get out on track hence drawing a line and not worrying about it. Any way GC said I can add length the other end e.g. the exhaust manifold side to assist with the tune.
Last edited by sediciRich; 19/03/2010 21:15.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1003595
19/03/2010 09:18
19/03/2010 09:18
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jtm
Unregistered
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jtm
Unregistered
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1003620
19/03/2010 09:57
19/03/2010 09:57
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jtm
Unregistered
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jtm
Unregistered
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1003623
19/03/2010 10:03
19/03/2010 10:03
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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radiused belmouth entry, very similar to the inside of Nik's manifold which has radiused entry, thanks JTM
Last edited by sediciRich; 19/03/2010 21:15.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1003630
19/03/2010 10:09
19/03/2010 10:09
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jtm
Unregistered
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jtm
Unregistered
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1004006
19/03/2010 20:27
19/03/2010 20:27
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Macki
Unregistered
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Macki
Unregistered
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hi !
quite interesting thread....
so the oem grale inlet manifold flows 125 cfm at guy crofts flowbench.
but how are the differences between the cylinders ? any facts from guy croft ?
does every cylinder get the same flow or are one or more worse in flow ?
macki
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1005994
23/03/2010 15:39
23/03/2010 15:39
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Macki
Unregistered
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Macki
Unregistered
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no one ?
begbie, do you know the particular cfm´s of each runner of the grale inlet manifold ? in guy´s forum thread only the overall cfm of the grale inlet manifold is mentioned....
the inlet manifold might be also a reason for the known heat problem of our 2l 16vt engine at cylinder 3 and 4 ?
thanks.
macki
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1006182
23/03/2010 19:42
23/03/2010 19:42
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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I don't know each runner, and at a guess it would be a very close value as stated on Guy's forum.
Inlet manifold has nothing to do with the heat problem on cylinder 3 & 4, it will be down to the log manifold and turbo sitting by cylinder 4
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1006188
23/03/2010 19:48
23/03/2010 19:48
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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Also note the cfm quoted is not a maximum figure in anyway it is the flow measured at a certain vacuum, to allow comparisons at the same vacuum to be made (i.e. against inlet port flow).
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1006197
23/03/2010 20:03
23/03/2010 20:03
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dink
Unregistered
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dink
Unregistered
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1NRO i just sent you a PM. I want one of those intake manifolds!!!
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1007244
25/03/2010 09:54
25/03/2010 09:54
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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"The Kappa manifold flows good enough for a ambitious engine build BUT it tunes at the wrong rpm for that kind of engine. You are afterall asking a lot of the 2 litre engine so rpm comes into play. It also has a less than satisfactory plenum volume and without modification won't accept a suitable throttle"
Nik, you're a bit off the mark here. There are NO pulse-tuning effects/benefits in a turbo unit due to inlet runners (such as one sees on an atmo unit and which they depend on) when on boost (of any level) because the cylinder sees +ve pressure upstream of the valve as soon as it opens. And because the charge is being rammed in under pressure well above atmos they don't need any either.
The ONLY problem with the Kappa is that the runners are still a bit on the small size. It is however markedly better than the Integrale 16v and is on a par when modified to the (yellow) 16v Coupe one above. I don't think you're right about recovery rate in the plenum either. The plenum size is only an issue on change of state from closed to open throttle. Judging from test results I have of atmo engines the Kappa item is plenty big enough to satisfy the change-of-state on any liter and being pressurised in this application it will be better still.
GC
Last edited by GCRE; 25/03/2010 09:55.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1007313
25/03/2010 11:20
25/03/2010 11:20
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jtm
Unregistered
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jtm
Unregistered
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this is what I found to be different between standard 16vt manifold and grale one :
Runners are quite a lot shorter wich should be good for higher rpm power ( and loss for down torque )
after TB the original one have first bottleneck, it has much smaller hole, than grale one..
cant remember the measurements anymore but overall it was something like 20% smaller hole on standard 16vt. its because of the manifold shape.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1007441
25/03/2010 14:11
25/03/2010 14:11
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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On a turbocharged unit the runner length is only relevant in terms of the viscous loss!
G
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1007540
25/03/2010 17:13
25/03/2010 17:13
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jtm
Unregistered
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jtm
Unregistered
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but what about the size of the hole ... ?? that should matter... ( size does matter )
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1007645
25/03/2010 19:46
25/03/2010 19:46
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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sediciRich
Unregistered
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JTM you idea of a bottle neck is probably capable of flowing more air then the engine is likely to need for road use even tuned.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: kj16v]
#1008003
26/03/2010 11:18
26/03/2010 11:18
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Hey Guy, in one of your threads you mentioned chord/diameter ratio. What does that mean? This might help, Clicky
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1008068
26/03/2010 12:48
26/03/2010 12:48
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Hello Guy,
Good to see you here, a place that can benefit.
With regard to there not being pulses within a forced engine inlet I can't agree. Am I right in understanding you are refering to the higher density of the medium (air) causes the pulses to cease to be?
Will a very efficent NA engine pull + pressure at IVO? Is this not the same but less prominent?
I'm trying to get the density influence clear in my mind. Casting thought to a natural example is the wave/pulse, whatever is best to call it, created by a tsunamis not passing with force across whole oceans through a far denser mass?
I can't for the life of me see how they would stop when above atmo.
Nik
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1008153
26/03/2010 14:15
26/03/2010 14:15
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jtm
Unregistered
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jtm
Unregistered
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i took some measurements on that bottle neck...
hole after TB is 63mm x 63mm ( 2,5" )
but in 16vt it goes right after that to size of
63mm x 46mm ( 2,15" 54,5mm )
so its a little smaller, than our standard TB is
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1009129
27/03/2010 22:48
27/03/2010 22:48
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725 London
kj16v
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725
London
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Hey Guy, in one of your threads you mentioned chord/diameter ratio. What does that mean? This might help, Clicky Cheers
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: kj16v]
#1009787
29/03/2010 11:43
29/03/2010 11:43
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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Nik, a negative wave from the cylinder (at depression) is reflected as a pos wave where it sees high pressure, which in this case is immediately at the non-firing side of the inlet valve not the plenum - as would happen on an atmo engine.
G
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1009788
29/03/2010 11:44
29/03/2010 11:44
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1011619
31/03/2010 22:10
31/03/2010 22:10
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Guy, My understanding is that the pulses/waves created by flow accelerating/decelerating due to the PD are not influenced by changes in pressure like you say. If this was the case there would be a massive jumble of waves even in a NA engine from every small change in pressure within the port (non-firing side). The pressures as you'll know vary within different areas around the port/intake runners. My opinion is that waves reflect at abrupt changes in area (when it hits the plenum for instance). As you say their origin is initiated by the PD and then the IVC creates no area which would see the wave traveling in the same state as it arrived, no matter the pressure, until is next meets a change in area. The density change in the air influences the speed of the waves IMO so there is a difference but they don't reflect off the PD. I know it's not something you care for but forgive the link, I find it excellent on this subject. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-speedsound.htm If I might mention the size of plenum and the influence on this subject, a bigger than usual plenum, from my research, allows a steadier flow without too harsh a change in pressure. Nik
Last edited by 1NRO; 31/03/2010 22:11.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1034446
11/05/2010 09:57
11/05/2010 09:57
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jtm
Unregistered
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jtm
Unregistered
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yes there is a difference .. at least the grale manifold is 2.5kg lighter and injectors are better to be seeing ( for chancing etc ) does someone have flow results ? my next manifold is going be the wrc double style plenum, thats for sure .
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1034457
11/05/2010 10:15
11/05/2010 10:15
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Ok There is that (lighter and easier to change the injectors), but there isn't any flow results, but would guess it was similar to the tipo inlet manifold i have
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Saint]
#1034512
11/05/2010 11:29
11/05/2010 11:29
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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Any links - Vas, if I recall correctly had before and after dyno results for the grale manifold but it could be the difference (10-15bhp) was within the margin or error for the dyno and the difference in the days - ie could have been cooler more humid etc But didn't Vas do some minor mapping tweaks as well? Link is http://deltaparts1.blogspot.com/
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1034798
11/05/2010 20:08
11/05/2010 20:08
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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That's a deluded patter writen by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about, when you tell so many lies you start to believe yourself. One minute talking about 28" and then quoting numbers related to 10" with a thinly veiled theft of numbers from elsewhere and some stupid wild claims in amongst a script designed to reel in those that know no better. If there was even the slightest understanding of the potential performance from given numbers there would be no mention of silly big valves, a standard sized valve with correct port dimensions is capable of supplying enough air to take the rpm's to crazy levels. The reason for equal length manifolds is nothing to do with flow levels, just sounds fancy though doesn't it? If it was about cfm we'd be hacking heads as big as we could, this is not the case in a correct job. Don't be lured in by the patter, you can be sure it's misguiding. The problem with any of the manifolds (the two coupe ones, kappa and integrale) is that the minimum cross section of the runners is some way off suiting the head. This is the case even with a standard head but start working the cylinder head and the restrictive part that is the inlet manifold just gets steadily worse. They can be eased and improved to a point but the likes of the plenum part and the integrale one have areas that just can't be accessed with the grinder so the fundamental restriction still remains. The coupe one having the rubber jointed sections allows better working and the bit that joins onto the head can be ported to some very suitable dimensions. Takes a bit of doing though http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/inletmanifolds033.jpg
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: nick_d]
#1042209
25/05/2010 10:28
25/05/2010 10:28
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I needed a turbo race engine and for reasons of cost I originally started with an 8 valve 2 litre Lancia turbo engine. For a plenum/inlet manifold I selected the one designed for the Thema but for a number of reasons it doesn't work too well. The torque curve is heavily influenced by inlet tuning and the Thema plenum/manifold gives peak torque at around 3000-3200 rpm and then works quite well up to about 6000 rpm after which it becomes seriously restrictive. This is largely due to the relatively small cross sectional area of the runners.
Having decided to build a 16 valve engine rather than chuck more money at the 8 valve engine to get the power I needed, I was concerned that I didn't end up in the same place - with a stock manifold that was too restrictive. This 16 valve engine will need to rev to make the power it is designed for and the wrong manifold will strangle it.
The Kappa manifold seems to be the one most commonly chosen by the Lancia drag racers on the continent but rarer than hens teeth in the UK. In any event it was bound to be a compromise in some area of it's design - either runner area, runner length, injector location or installation was likely to bring some problems - so I decided to design and have built a custom plenum.
With the aid of Engine Analyzer Pro I was able to simulate the whole engine, exhaust and turbo and ran multiple itterations of the inlet runner diameters and lengths until I found the 'best match' for our cams and timing.
I would like to confirm at this point that inlet pressure wave tuning is as fundamental to the correct design of runners on a turbo engine as it is on a normally aspirated engine; anyone who says otherwise has either not done their homework or has no personal experience in this area.
The inlet manifold design I settled on gives a 5.4 psi boost immediately behind the inlet valves at 5000 rpm - that is either on top of atmospheric pressure if running N/A or off boost - or on top of boost pressure when running flat out.
This 5.4 psi of boost costs nothing - it brings no additional need for intercooling with it, for example.
My design brings no increase in inlet pressure below 4000 rpm, but that is more down to our cams than anything else. At 4000 rpm is gives 4 psi, peaks with 5.4 psi @ 5000 rpm, gives 4.9 psi @ 6000 rpm, 3.3 psi @ 7000 rpm and 1.8 psi @ 8000 rpm.
The cross sectional area of the runners is 1590mm^2 - the equivalent of a tube with an ID of 45mm. The runner length (head face to plenum) is 200mm. Shortening the runner length from 200mm to 175mm reduces peak torque and pushes peak torque up 500 rpm to 5500. It also extends the rev range to 8500 rpm. None of these effects was desirable in my application, so I stuck with 200mm.
If someone could tell me how I could post a picture of the design and if anybody would like one for themselves I can put you in touch with the company that made mine.
Last edited by group5lancia; 25/05/2010 10:29.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042228
25/05/2010 10:57
25/05/2010 10:57
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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If someone could tell me how I could post a picture of the design and if anybody would like one for themselves I can put you in touch with the company that made mine. Go to photobucket.com Register an account Upload photo Get the link to post the photo Then post on here with: [imgpop]http:///www.link.com[/imgpop]
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1042241
25/05/2010 11:19
25/05/2010 11:19
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Last edited by group5lancia; 25/05/2010 11:22.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042242
25/05/2010 11:23
25/05/2010 11:23
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TurboJ
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TurboJ
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Looks like you made that in CATIA V5 etc.....
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1042247
25/05/2010 11:29
25/05/2010 11:29
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TurboJ
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TurboJ
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B its a CAD drawing
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1042249
25/05/2010 11:31
25/05/2010 11:31
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Not cheap I'm afraid - £750 was the final quote which is cheaper than my exhaust manifold - but it was the first one so copies might be cheaper. However, as the head would not flow what I wanted without the proper inlet, what choice did I have but to do it properly?
The curve in the runners is to suit my installation. These could be made straight or curve the other way, and injectors could also be relocated.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042251
25/05/2010 11:32
25/05/2010 11:32
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Literally hot off the press and will be installed next week, so pictures (photos) to follow.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042256
25/05/2010 11:39
25/05/2010 11:39
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Any pics of the real thing?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042258
25/05/2010 11:42
25/05/2010 11:42
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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As I said above, it has just been finished and will be fitted next week, so I will get some 'real' pics up a.s.a.p.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042262
25/05/2010 11:47
25/05/2010 11:47
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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that looks like a brilliant bit of kit there!
cant wait to see the real thing!!
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042289
25/05/2010 12:16
25/05/2010 12:16
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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B its a CAD drawing I know it is, still a very nice looking manifold
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: Begbie]
#1042312
25/05/2010 12:38
25/05/2010 12:38
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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The design was inspired by this LC2 setup
Last edited by group5lancia; 25/05/2010 12:47.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042363
25/05/2010 14:13
25/05/2010 14:13
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Nobby
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Nobby
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Nice work. I love the Lancia LC2's (infact anything with Martini livery.... )
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042585
25/05/2010 20:39
25/05/2010 20:39
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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That's a pretty drawing, must be to fit the coupe engine bay? Your running a coupe or a lancia?
I'm suprised to see the cross section is as much as it is. You must of ground a lot out of the cylinder head entrance or maybe the manifold runners taper down smaller near the head? Have you a throttle in mind to use? Sorry for the questions, just a favourite subject of mine.
Nik
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042837
26/05/2010 11:53
26/05/2010 11:53
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I have 36.7mm inlet valves, giving a valve area of 2116mm^2. The inlet ports are 27mm diameter at the narrowest point, giving an area of 1145mm^2. This size was chosen to match the peak RPM the engine will be run at whilst keeping good gas speed at lower RPM. From the narrowest point to the head face the ports increase in area to finally match the inlet runner area.
Peak flow is 182cfm @ 10" of water (287cfm @25", 304cfm @ 28") with the valves in. This is an improvement of 143.5% over the standard head, with measurable flow improvements from 2.5mm lift. I haven't yet measured flow with the manifold on but EAP says all will be fine with an actual total engine flow of 646cfm @ 8000 rpm @ 29psi boost or 574cfm @ 8000 rpm @ 21psi boost.
The engine is fitted in a Lancia, but the runners could be re-designed and the throttle body position modified to suit a Coupe I am sure.
Last edited by group5lancia; 26/05/2010 12:02.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042949
26/05/2010 14:13
26/05/2010 14:13
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Yeah, of course you have
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042957
26/05/2010 14:30
26/05/2010 14:30
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Not sure if there was a hint of disbelief in the previous post, but here is the comparison from the flowbench
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1042980
26/05/2010 15:25
26/05/2010 15:25
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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A pretty graph isn't going to win me over I'm afraid, you'll have to do better than that.
The big valves is interesting, any chance you might explain how you went about fitting these?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043024
26/05/2010 16:50
26/05/2010 16:50
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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That is your choice, of course. I don't have anything to prove here - I'm just trying to help those who asked, including the OP, about dealing with the flow restrictions of the various standard inlet arrangements.
As for fitting the valves, you can get in touch with Automotive Machine Services who did the work. I have sent you a PM with contact details. All I can say is it wasn't a big job - new seats required of course and also for the exhaust valves which are 32mm. The 36.7mm valve is only 1.15mm bigger in radius after all..... oh, and I forgot to mention the bores are 86mm
Last edited by group5lancia; 26/05/2010 16:57.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043055
26/05/2010 18:31
26/05/2010 18:31
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829 kidderminster
nick_d
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829
kidderminster
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2mm over bore?..... Isn't that ALOT? Mines just been bored to 84.5mm, which makes it now a massive 2.02 cc engine..... Nick
368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: nick_d]
#1043058
26/05/2010 18:35
26/05/2010 18:35
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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2mm over bore?..... Isn't that ALOT? Mines just been bored to 84.5mm, which makes it now a massive 2.02 cc engine..... Nick I agree. I have 85mm bores in the 8 valve engine and I thought that was on the limit. But the 86mm was specified and machined by 'the man' and he also supplied the CP pistons. I know it's not the only '2.1' block he has done - so who am I to argue? Block is Fiat Croma which might make a difference...
Last edited by group5lancia; 26/05/2010 18:47.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043075
26/05/2010 19:14
26/05/2010 19:14
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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I can't help but think that the respected Guy Croft who has put a fair part of his lifes energies into the Fiat twincam might have a decent handle on how to extract CFM from our cylinder head. He has afterall done many of them to all levels of performance. I know him to not be a bull shitter in any way and have not the slightest doubt that he has done everything he could to get the most. Below he talks about just this subject and you might do well to read it. Whoever is telling you those figures is having you on. To do it with a pinch point of 27 mm is fantasy. As you'll likely know Gregs car is no slouch with a power level that is amazing, all on a standard valve size. http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=80&hilit=gregThe simple fact is the standard valve size on a decently worked cylinder head can supply enough air to maintain 100% ve at incredible rpm, peak potential VE happens lower still. 86 mm bore is asking for trouble too, at the level I think your shooting for you'll be needing all the rigidity you can get, those rings will be struggling as it is. Is your manifold (inlet) to be exactly the same as the drawing? Looks to me that the air flow at the transition into the cylinder head is going to be nosediving into the port floor. Pictures would go a long way to proving what you talk about, I'm happy for you to push boundaries (I like to be this way too)but sometimes some things just aren't worth the expense or effort but I'm sure there's plenty who would like to SEE what you've been up to. Nik
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043102
26/05/2010 19:53
26/05/2010 19:53
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I can't help but think that the respected Guy Croft who has put a fair part of his lifes energies into the Fiat twincam might have a decent handle on how to extract CFM from our cylinder head. He has afterall done many of them to all levels of performance. I know him to not be a bull shitter in any way and have not the slightest doubt that he has done everything he could to get the most. Below he talks about just this subject and you might do well to read it. Whoever is telling you those figures is having you on. To do it with a pinch point of 27 mm is fantasy. As you'll likely know Gregs car is no slouch with a power level that is amazing, all on a standard valve size. http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=80&hilit=gregThe simple fact is the standard valve size on a decently worked cylinder head can supply enough air to maintain 100% ve at incredible rpm, peak potential VE happens lower still. 86 mm bore is asking for trouble too, at the level I think your shooting for you'll be needing all the rigidity you can get, those rings will be struggling as it is. Is your manifold (inlet) to be exactly the same as the drawing? Looks to me that the air flow at the transition into the cylinder head is going to be nosediving into the port floor. Pictures would go a long way to proving what you talk about, I'm happy for you to push boundaries (I like to be this way too)but sometimes some things just aren't worth the expense or effort but I'm sure there's plenty who would like to SEE what you've been up to. Nik There is, I think you will agree, a huge difference between the head on an 8 valve twink and the 16 valve engine. The only true similarity is that they will fit on the same block..... In this case, GC supplied and bored the block and provided the pistons - all his spec, not mine. If you think it's asking for trouble, kindly argue the point with GC, not me. GC also supplied the head fully prepped and assembled by his own hands with his own inlet valves, springs etc (flows shown on the lower trace). GC has not fitted the larger valves nor been involved in the additional machining and porting. GC has said on his website that the Lancia/Fiat head can flow as much if not more than any other production based 16V head, possibly with one or two exceptions. Take a look here... http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=98I have 13.8% more valve area, so 160cfm x 113.8%=182cfm - exactly what we have achieved....... Though they are pleasing (to me) I don't think the figures that have been achieved are that extraordinary compared with what GC has produced from the XE and other heads. Neither are the port sizes in the least extreme for an engine running to 8000 rpm. And as for the valve size, as I am sure you won't need telling, what a larger valve allows is better breathing at all lifts and all RPM - not just peak RPM. This is what makes for good torque - as again I am sure you know. With the standard valve there is a mis-match between the valve size and the throat - the throat is too large for optimum performance with the standard valve as I am sure you and GC are aware of. This has been verified by several other independent experts - but I won't name drop. Rather than add metal to the throat we decided to enlarge the valve to match the throat. Simples. The preferred port size to match the valves is somewhat larger, but as we are looking for peak power at somewhat less than 8350rpm we have kept the size down to 27mm. As for the manifold, I assure you that the angle of the inlet runners is perfectly inline with the angle of the port looking directly at the back of the valve. As for proof of anything - well, as I said earlier - I am here to offer some answers to the OP and a possible alternative for those looking for a solution to the inlet dilemma. Prooving will be done on the race track. It's the only place that matters.
Last edited by group5lancia; 26/05/2010 20:16.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043226
26/05/2010 22:11
26/05/2010 22:11
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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That's interesting to hear the source of your engine, not at all what I'd expect of Guy. You'll have to keep us updated on results. I am suprised at the throat size though, some 6/7% away from becoming a burden on lower rpm torque imo.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043233
26/05/2010 22:14
26/05/2010 22:14
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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That's interesting to hear the source of your engine, not at all what I'd expect of Guy. You'll have to keep us updated on results. I am suprised at the throat size though, some 6/7% away from becoming a burden on lower rpm torque imo.
I guess it depends on what RPM you are talking about - so what number are you working to?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043251
26/05/2010 22:38
26/05/2010 22:38
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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New pics - and a comparison (angle wise) with the Kappa manifold - which has a straight shot to the back of the inlet valves. Glossy! And matching cam cover....
Last edited by group5lancia; 26/05/2010 22:47.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043333
27/05/2010 07:00
27/05/2010 07:00
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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I look at the minimum cross section as being more to do with the bowl and valve size rather than rpm. The length of runner has more influence on rpm imo. Your manifold certainly looks glossy, I like a bare alloy myself but each to their own. Maybe when I've finished them I can offer you an upgrade on what you already have. Aimed at a very similar rpm to yours and certainly not going to restrictive, if your running by then (it'll be a while yet) a bolt on test would be interesting for you I'm sure. Are you running the power steering pump in the integrale position? A taster of what the air will see on it's way into the cylinder http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y85/1NRO/inletmanifolds016.jpg the rings are to be pressed and dressed onto the runners once the plate is welded to the runners. There's to be an injector mounted in the lower plenum above the bell mouth and a diffuser system between the two. Have you a particular throttle size in mind to use?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043381
27/05/2010 09:33
27/05/2010 09:33
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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Yours has very short runner lengths - why is that?
It looks pretty solid and bomb proof though - what is the finished weight?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043413
27/05/2010 10:06
27/05/2010 10:06
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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CL comes in at 175 mm
Forsure it's heavy duty, I don't know the weight as it's not finished yet but the attatchment for the or brace is there so no worries on that front.
What size throttle are you intending if I might ask? Also are you running the integrale power steering pump?
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043419
27/05/2010 10:21
27/05/2010 10:21
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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What cam duration and timing is the 175mm tuned to work with, and at what RPM?
I don't have power steering on the race car. I have three TBs and will be selecting the best option on the engine dyno.
Last edited by group5lancia; 27/05/2010 10:22.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1043656
27/05/2010 16:00
27/05/2010 16:00
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1NRO
Unregistered
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1NRO
Unregistered
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Depends on who might buy one and the nature of the engine they have/are building. There's a number to choose from and custom also.
No power steering! What's the car?
I thought maybe you'd have a theoretical dia TB, in such a carefully simulated engine.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1045728
01/06/2010 10:07
01/06/2010 10:07
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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160cfm x 113.8% = 182cfm
At what pressure ratio?
GC
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1045750
01/06/2010 10:57
01/06/2010 10:57
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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182 cfm @ 10" water 287.8 cfm @ 25" water
Last edited by group5lancia; 01/06/2010 10:58.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1045812
01/06/2010 12:46
01/06/2010 12:46
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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Sorry but you'd have to take so much material out of the ports you'd be working in thin air to get that from the 16v. You can't just ratio up the BPF because the valves are bigger and assume the flow will go up, the controlling section isn't the valve throat it's the splitter bore.
GC
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1045832
01/06/2010 13:09
01/06/2010 13:09
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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group5lancia
Unregistered
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I agree it's not the valve throat controlling the flow. As mentioned above, with the standard valves fitted that area is a fair bit larger than optimum. The main reason for increasing valve size was to optimize the throat/valve area ratio.
It has been achieved, and the measured results come from a Superflow bench. The figures are not BPF - they are valve in at 10.8mm lift.
The unmodified head flows correlate 1:1 with your figures, the modified head/standard valve flows correlate 1:1 with your own figures, so there is no reason to doubt the flows figures measured by the bench with the larger inlet valves, with the controlling sections of the ports modified to match. I am sure you could achieve the same. Why not give it a try?
Last edited by group5lancia; 01/06/2010 13:17.
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Re: 16vt inlet manifold very restrictive ?
[Re: ]
#1046458
02/06/2010 13:19
02/06/2010 13:19
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GCRE
Unregistered
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GCRE
Unregistered
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Something wrong with your flowbench, Mr Kift.
GC
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