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Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105155
04/05/2006 04:45
04/05/2006 04:45

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v666,

I think a unichip or somekind of decent mapping would be a sound investment. Maybe not gain more power, but certainly keep the car 'safe' and may also pay for itself in saved fuel!

You also have the right idea in always using the same RR. Its only worth using another if you wish to compare with exactly the same spec.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105156
04/05/2006 04:48
04/05/2006 04:48
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I think Busa has 330bhp.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105157
04/05/2006 05:03
04/05/2006 05:03

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oops, your right. i'll go edit the post and give him back his 30 horses

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105158
04/05/2006 10:17
04/05/2006 10:17

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lucky , if not Busa would fall off his Busa.

hehe.
.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105159
04/05/2006 16:59
04/05/2006 16:59

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The figures do look odd to me. Why don't the power and torque curves cross at 5252rpm?

The peak torque figure at 1 bar is also lower than my currently standard 20vt.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105160
04/05/2006 18:07
04/05/2006 18:07
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Some good results there I can understand the scepticism but for the most part I think the results can be explained and ratified somewhat. There are couple of things I have noticed which doesn't make a lot of sense but I'll come on to that later First off let's take a look at your results in comparison to everyone elses

Torque Graph

BHP Graph

Well the most obvious thing is that you are running a little laggy especially given that you have the 0.64 turbine and the 3" downpipe off the turbo. This could well be due to the way you have setup your ebc. The advantage of this very progressive and slower buildup is that there are no boost spikes with the turbo just entering efficiency towards the redline therefore maximising torque from 5500rpm. This is where you'll get your nice headline figures from as it keeps a good torque band right up to 7000rpm+

I think there is scope to really fill out your torque down the bottom end. If you want to make your coupé not only go faster but also feel faster then beefing up your low down torque will do wonders If we strip away everyone else lines and leave mine and yours you'll see what I mean.

Flea Vs v666

Now for the confusing bits First off, I have to agree with Nigel. Your transmission losses are very low @ 10% and your wheel power very high!! This is technically a very good thing but it is does raise a few questions. Normally you would expect FWD to have in the region of 15-18% losses which would put your fly figure at nearer 370bhp

Secondly, you are running relatively low boost 315bhp @ 1bar is going some and 350bhp @ 1.35bar is relatively low too When I ran my car unmapped i.e. just the G-Tec II I achieved 360bhp - 315lbs/ft but this was with a 1.6bar midrange. With my current state of tune at 1.4bar I get 360bhp - 325lbs/ft so you can see how your results don't quite follow the usual 20vt trends i.e. your mods lb for lb, but they are not so extreme that they totally unrealistic

The final thing is your rev limiter. You are hitting peak power at 7300rpm You certainly win the rpm / highest peak power output for a 20vt Now I don't know which G-Tec II you have but from what I remember the rev limiter wasn't raised from the standard 6800rpm. That is not to say Graham doesn't know how to do this but when he was developing the chip he decided not to do this as most 20vt coops are hitting peak power at around 5500-6500rpm. The only chip that currently does raise the limiter is the Squadra but this actually kicks in at 7100rpm some 200rpm sooner than your peak power So it's a strange result in that you appear to be running a chip that is doing something that it shouldn't

Anyway, some of my thoughts to mull over. There may be something a little unusual about this rolling road so may be worth a chat on the phone or simply go to another to compare. Either way you have a very fast coupé there but I reckon you could get a bit more out of the old girl yet


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Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105161
04/05/2006 18:13
04/05/2006 18:13
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Cosmo, they are using different scales either side of the graph for bhp and torque. If you plot them on the same scales then they do cross at 5252rpm.


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Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105162
04/05/2006 20:05
04/05/2006 20:05

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The Gtec II mark one has a raised rev limit, not unlike the squadra

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105163
04/05/2006 20:48
04/05/2006 20:48
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Fergie, very few people have the G-Tec II mk1 as that was a prototype but even so it doesn't go above 7100rpm whereas v666 is hitting 7300rpm.


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Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105164
05/05/2006 01:12
05/05/2006 01:12

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Again, could be the rollers...

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105165
05/05/2006 02:19
05/05/2006 02:19

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@ Flea
Thank you for the very informative post, it does make me think.
The ebc is the GB one saint did (hybrid) so maybe cosmograph could shed some light on that, it is very smooth though.
The boost reading was taken from the gauge, so maybe that’s out. And as to the rev limit, yes that does worry me a little ( I do not drive it that high tho). The Gtech II was ordered from graham quite early in the proceedings but I would have to ask graham about it. Looking at my first graph that ends at 7000 revs so I'll go for a drive on sat and see how far the rev counter goes in 3rd - is it accurate ?. Also, what would you suggest to bring the torque up to a better level and just how far should I push the max boost at higher revs with some regard for engine safety?

Alright, where are pts (web link would be handy)

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105166
05/05/2006 02:30
05/05/2006 02:30

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Unit D, Kingsway Ind. Est., Kingsway,
Luton
Beds.
UK
LU1 1LP

www.pts-tuning.co.uk
info@pts-tuning.co.uk
01582 731 733


there is a map on there website with some good directions also.

v666 I think that would be a wise investment for you, for safety's sake and for comparison too

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105167
05/05/2006 04:37
05/05/2006 04:37

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Might interest some of you to know that my rev counter reads 200rpm higher than the Apexi.

Would explain 7300 on the rev counter

My boost gauge matches the Apexi as well.

To reduce lag could think about an evo style FMIC, not sure how the Pro Alloy compares. Full 3" exhaust all the way would help to. Then think about electronic boost controller and maybe a unichip.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105168
05/05/2006 04:55
05/05/2006 04:55

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Thank you yellafella.

Thats about a 3 hour drive, but i'll phone them in the morning and book an appointment.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105169
05/05/2006 14:34
05/05/2006 14:34
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Quote:

Might interest some of you to know that my rev counter reads 200rpm higher than the Apexi.

Would explain 7300 on the rev counter

My boost gauge matches the Apexi as well.




Given that it is the rolling road that is displaying 7300rpm then that is more confusing. If they have calibrated the rollers using v666's rpm dial then it could well be out. Either way it changes all the results as we know bhp = torque x revs/5252. I would hazard a guess that perhaps your coupé isn't as laggy as these rollers suggest and with slightly less peak power.

Quote:

To reduce lag could think about an evo style FMIC, not sure how the Pro Alloy compares. Full 3" exhaust all the way would help to. Then think about electronic boost controller and maybe a unichip.




The Pro Alloy is proven to be a good unit in terms of spool and charge temps so there would be no reason to change that. You already have the 5 stud 3" downpipe (not sure about the rest of your exhaust) so no changes there. The ebc appears to do the job fine although it's hard to say as it is new to people on here but I can't see it being a problem. To my mind you should be looking at a set of cams (check out the group buy perhaps) as these will help fatten up the torque curve across the range and should also naturally lean out your rich fueling Obviously you need to check all this again on the rollers. A Unichip or other mappable ecu may prove beneficial but it is unlikely to create more power above the G Tec II.


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Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105170
05/05/2006 15:56
05/05/2006 15:56

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Yep, that could explain it.

Most rolling roads use a similar method of calibration, normally then run the car at 2000rpm, then they relat that to the roller speed. Then by extrapolation they can work out the revs of the engine.

This might expalin why the two power runs bhp/torque curves cross at different points, suggesting that at least one of the runs was innacurate.

I agree with Flea, I suspect from the modifications that v666 is running a car that is slightly less laggy, but also slightly less peak power. That's why my first suggestino was that the torque curve appeared like the larger housing. Another 3-500rpm less it would be more like the 0.64.

Joe

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105171
05/05/2006 19:19
05/05/2006 19:19

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OK booked into pts.

They have booked it in for a RR tune which I think is a bit OTT.

They said that as I want the fueling checked I would need there tune session. But what do they do for that ?
If its stick a wide band up the exhaust and 2 power runs (about 1/2 hour all in) then I will reconsider, as I will not pay £300 an hour

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105172
06/05/2006 01:48
06/05/2006 01:48

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£300 an hour?

You're getting your trousers pulled down m8!

Phone them and ask exactly what they are going to do for that money.

Tell them you simply want an hour on the rollers to check the fueling and to get some power figures.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105173
06/05/2006 02:43
06/05/2006 02:43

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I agree with you Fergie , I'm booked in on Tuesday for a Unichip remap and that's at their standard rate of £65 plus VAT per hour (for about 2 hours on the rollers).

Definitely phone them

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105174
06/05/2006 04:12
06/05/2006 04:12

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I'll ring them on monday then as they said that the standard charge for a RR tune (which I would need to get the fueling) was £150, and i'll ask what they do and how long it takes.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105175
06/05/2006 13:38
06/05/2006 13:38

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Fueling is measured with a wide band lamda probe

Maybe they are offering to fit a fuel pressure reg and alter it that way?

Only other way to alter the fueling would be with unichip etc or Apexi AFC

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105176
06/05/2006 17:53
06/05/2006 17:53

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v666, I've often got several runs with wide band fuelling for less than £100 there.

If its a Unichip remap then it takes a bit more times,.. right, must get my car in for her finam remap now!, at last!

Joe

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. *DELETED* #105177
06/05/2006 18:15
06/05/2006 18:15

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Post deleted by GreyFurby

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105178
08/05/2006 16:47
08/05/2006 16:47

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Quote:

£300 an hour?

You're getting your trousers pulled down m8!

Phone them and ask exactly what they are going to do for that money.

Tell them you simply want an hour on the rollers to check the fueling and to get some power figures.




You have to be quite firm with PTS about what you want. When I was there for a unichip I could have quite happily handed over my keys and sat in the waiting room without a word from them regarding what they were going to do with the car. The same goes when they've finished with the car - ask what they've done + why. They must be used to having people turn up for mapping + unichips that aren't as interested or as hands on as most coupe owners.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. #105179
12/05/2006 23:56
12/05/2006 23:56

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I have now spoke with AP Motors (original RR) and asked about the high revs on the graph. They said they do not go by the rev counter (as this is often incorrect) but take the reading from the engine. That would mean they either got it wrong or there is something amiss with the my rev limit .

I also rang PTS again who said that a tuning session was not required, just a couple of power runs with fueling check at the standard hourly rate . I’m booked in for next week and will put the results up.

Tim

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. (PTS) #105180
18/05/2006 03:45
18/05/2006 03:45

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Right, I’ve been to PTS today, 7 ½ hours driving in total, quite boring apart from an hour with a 355

Got there at 9:30 and found all the staff/owner to be very friendly and helpful. Half an hour later it was being put on the rollers where it stayed for just over an hour and had 6-8 runs (was not counting). Afterwards I spoke to Paul who was great at explaining my questions (including the dumb ones) with no hesitation.

The results

The injectors are ok at 1 bar but max out at 5200 rpm at 1.45 bar.

Its fueling is just a little lean at 1 bar, but at 1.45 bar its gets to 12.5 – so its been turned back to 1.3 bar for now.

I asked about the revs on these graphs and the AP motors ones. The answer was that the revs shown on the graph will not be accurate as they check at 0 and 3000 revs then the rest is extrapolated. The laptop could not help either as it runs off the injectors which were maxed out so did not have the information above 5200 revs. The AP motors graph must be wrong tho as 7500 is just too high. However the revs on the graph do not change the power or torque results apart from moving them along the graph.

At 1 bar

311.0 bhp
37.8 loss
268.7 lbs/ft

At 1.45 bar

346.4 bhp
32.9 loss
307.4 lbs/ft

Graphs and notes here

So next.
Adjustable Fuel pressure regulator as this may sort the fueling
Then Unichip (only if needed)
And watch the C&B cams buy for the results (hoping for good results as I want them)
And , and , and…….

All in I,m very pleased

Comments / suggestions on the above welcome.

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. (PTS) #105181
18/05/2006 04:25
18/05/2006 04:25
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Well there is no doubting those results, you have a very nice powerful coupe there


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Re: GT28RS with H&S results. (PTS) #105182
18/05/2006 04:46
18/05/2006 04:46

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Thank you, and I'm enjoying every moment of driving it, even if the KYB suspension is a little hard for 7 1/2 hours in a day

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. (PTS) #105183
18/05/2006 05:04
18/05/2006 05:04

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Cool, nice graph as well, torque comes in nice and early

What clutch are you running with that level of torque?

Joe

Re: GT28RS with H&S results. (PTS) #105184
18/05/2006 05:11
18/05/2006 05:11

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Standard clutch

I dont think it will last long from the comments about clutches on this forum. It's also the original one now at 80K odd miles!

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