Been following this thread now with interest but have managed to keep my oar out. However i have to say i am now using a company called Black Performance who are coating everything from Manifolds to intercoolers with great results in keeping the heat down. I wanted to wait until i had properly tested this on my car which has had the water rail, manifold and downpipe done before i said anything but i don't want people to miss out on a good product.

The guy who owns it is Stewart Black and the website is www.blackperformance.co.uk

Latest news from TigArt:

The SCH40 SS304 material is good for very high pressure and high temp purposes. This is NOT the same material they use for their downpipes and exhausts.

The SS304 SCH40 can easily handle the weight, heat and vibrations caused by a big turbo in high performance engines. However they always recommend a bracket for the turbocharger which we have.

The don't use food grade SS304 which is why those manifolds crack all the time. They haven't had a manifold failure which is why they give a 2 year warranty against cracks and manufacturing defects.

Having said all that they can fabricate the manifold out of SS316 if we want and it'll increase the price by 15%.

The don't offer any ceramic coating options but that isn't a problem with the number of companies in the UK which can do that for us.

Hi Sparco,

I welcome any feedback on this topic. I'll contact them and see what price they can coat the manifold for.

John

I paid about £125 for my manifold but i can't gaurantee that this will be the set rate as i'm going to be running some branding on my car during Time Attack.

Hi John.

TBH, if this is going to be a purchase with a decent spell of longevity i wouldn't mind paying that bit extra for the better material used.

Re. ceramic coating, is this a must have or more of a finishing touch? as i'm not convinced it lasts as long as some people say.
I've heard stories of the internal coating flaking off and going through the turbo although i'm sure techniques and products have improved since then.

I'll just go with the flow for now and see what the end decision is, but i'm still in.

They don't internally coat its an external layer.

I think quality is down to where does it prep etc rather than the product its self

I finally got a quote from Zircotec for coating the tubular manifold.

For the tubular system from TigArt the cost is £280 for White or £322 for Colour.

They can also coat turbos which improves the spool up time and gives a crisper throttle response. Pricing is £125 for White or £144 for Colour.

Turnaround is normally up to 10 working days. Payment is accepted via credit card or bank transfer.

Bulk purchases are available with typically 10% discount for an order of 10 parts (mixed items are accepted to make up the 10 parts required).

More details on the material/process used:

Zircotec coatings are proven for application to a variety of metals providing a high performance ceramic thermal barrier coating, which improves the efficiency of exhausts and prevents local component and chassis damage from radiated heat. In recent independent testing surface temperatures where reduced by up to 173 degrees C when comparing coated with uncoated manifolds, with typical under bonnet temperature reductions of 30 degrees C.

Our coatings are applied using a gas plasma spraying process which ensures an extremely well adhered, durable coating with an extremely hard and durable surface that is highly resistant to vibration, mechanical damage and thermal shock. The full process, which is suitable for both new and used exhaust systems, consists of: de-greasing, masking where the coating is not required, grit-blasting, spraying of base coat and finally spraying of ceramic thermal barrier coat. As we use gas plasma spraying process the coating is to the external surfaces only with no preparatory work required by you but all items for coating must be sent to our facility here in England.

The natural colour of our coating is white/cream, but many of our customers call for the very highest level of performance offered by Performance White but also require a coating with a finish that can be more easily maintained. To meet this need Zircotec has developed a range of high quality multi-coat colour finishes that are applied over the top of our standard plasma-sprayed ceramic.

There seems to be a handful of people interested in the TigArt Manifold but at the same time hesitant as to whether or not they should commit themselves to a group buy.

What I will say is that I have had a tubular manifold with an external wastegate on my car for almost three years now. It is the same as the one JohnS had on his coupe, only his primaries are of different size. The manifold is yet to crack and can support a large turbo, in my case a GT2871r.

However there is a lot of extra work needed to fit this manifold namely moving the radiator slightly forward and on an air con car, messing about with the water rail (I have a custom one fitted).

Now the TigArt is a direct fit, a much better design and it seems better made. You will get better boost control and possibly even better spool up with more power. Yes the associated costs are pretty high with new turbos, wastegates and coatings needed but as always in life, you get what you pay for.

Maybe it is time to start looking at the spec of the turbo JohnS had on his coupe and how much your current one will fetch on eBay!

And yes you can also have a screamer pipe if you so wish!

As far as I know Johns primaries were 38mm OD and 34mm ID...
means the same diameter than mine - and I did 565whp!
Going wider means definitely more top end, but also definitely less response!
I think best case for 600HP is 36mm ID ( I see that my exhaust temperature is at a limit - therefore maybe a little more, means 40mm OD could help here) - more is definitely not necessary!
To Saito an other Italian tubular manifolds: they sold 2 types of manifold: OD 35/36mm or 38mm.
Other diameters form Italy were not available, as far as I know.
Juergen

thanks for the replies Stichl / Easy, looks to me the TIG-ART will do the job for the 2.4 then


@ John, have they got an actual pic of the manifold fully fitted to a air-con coupe ?

My primaries are not 36mm like I stated, they are 35mm. I had to check original e-mails/PMs to confirm as I've been under the impression they were 36mm since I've had the manifold.

Feel like a bit of a spokesman for JohnS but his power was rising at 8000rpm which would suggest the manifold had a lot more to give, hence the 700-750bhp estimate.

Johns wrote to me 2006 in a mail:
"I am trying out a new exhaust manifold with external wg an we will see what power it produces. it only has 34mm ID, but we have found that if you go 35/36mm internal you start tolose a lot ot torque...
I am also trying a twin-scroll setup..."
As far as I know he did not change these dimensions...
maybe someone should ask him...
juergen

John, any update pal ?

I haven`t heard anything back from BlackPerformance regarding their ceramic coating.

I was hoping that John would comment on the ID size of his manifold.

I`ll speak to Lightspeed tomorrow and see what they say about ID sizes. If we go with the TigArt design, which to me seems the best option, we only have a choice of two sizes anyway 36mm (with thick walls) or 37mm (with thin walls). I think it`s going to be difficult to choose between the two as we would really need to try both on the car with our chosen turbo and see which power curve we like the look of.

Given that there is only 2 or 3 of us interested we`re not going to get any group buy discounts. I think the best we can get is shared shipping costs to the UK. I would want mine ceramic coating so was thinking of getting TigArt to ship my manifold directly to Zircotec and then for them to ship to Canada for me.

John I think Juergen is right about ID sizes of JohnS's manifold which would therefore mean 36mm ID primaries would be more than sufficient.

Getting it shipped to Zircotec is a good idea as i'd want mine coated too, the only dilemma is choosing primary sizes.

Currently i'm just running a GT2871 @1.2bar. The beauty of it is i have no lag, zero, zilch, nada, and it whips up in the blink of an eye. Over 400 brake and 420lbs/ft
Trouble with that is there's no point in ramping up the boost as it won't produce much more power and am toying with changing to a 3076 but not sure if i want to sacrifice the instant grunt for more power.
If this manifold will help matters, then i'll just be a sheep and go along with what you guys think.

Longevity of the manifold is probably going to swing it for me but your thoughts on the different thicknesses and their pros and cons would be much appreciated.

Taz, how are you finding spool up with your blower?

Rob, when mine was on a gt3076 ar0.64 the spool up was major quick, basically on boost just after idle !

Now on a 0.86 turbine housing, the lag is much more, maybe 1200 rpm, but then I've gone up 100hp on a dyno comparison.

It's all down to flowrates.

My old gt28R spooled up possibly slower than my old gt3076 with a 0.64, but this restricted flow, so max boost was 1.2bar, on the dyno, I still det at 1.2 - 1.3 due to heat.

it hold 1.5 on the road no problems, so a tubular will give me better off boost response & much better top end boost = less critical incylinder temps

just looking at the spec, the 36mm thick wall will be better than the 37mm thin wall ? I still want to see a pic of a 20vt with it fitted with all the ancillaries on a air con model

I'm conscious of the fact that a heavy turbo still has to hang off this lot & thinner walled stuff will suffer fatigue more easily ?

How / where would the blow off valve pipe go to, as we all probably have H&S 3" downpipes ??

Agreed, I'd also want mine externally ceramic coating silver / white.

Has anybody PM'd JohnS ?

You need to keep gas temps high in the manifold to keep the velocity up, wouldn't a thick walled tube be more efficient at retaining heat ?

I’ve not quite worked out how you access the flange to tighten the nuts with the TigArt manifold, but I’m assuming it must be possible. I’m seriously considering one from a longevity point of view as I cant seem to find anything that last on my car – although that perhaps suggests there’s another problem somewhere.

Really it should be supported but this in itself can lead to fatigue unless expansion is catered for. The tubes will expand with heat no matter how well braced, they have to move somewhere.

Velocity is the easy bit, there is a huge difference in pressures between cylinder pressure at exhaust valve opening and atmospheric, when one is introduced to the other it soon gets on with trying to equalize itself. It's up against it due to the numb obstruction we bolt on not long afterwards so thought towards keeping the pressure in there lower is worthwhile, that nasty wasty back pressure ;-)

Bringing this back to life

@ John, have you had any more news from TIG art, do they have any pics / proof that one of these fit the coop 20VT with no problems ?

I Emailed Tig-Art regarding this subject, and they say that to fit a Fiat coupé with Air-con, we will have to manufacture a 10mm spacer between the block and the compressor...

I'll chase them up regarding photographs and performance.

I've been busy recently trying to get my car up and running with the VIPEC so I have a base figure. It'll probably be a month or two before I'm in a position to place an order.

John

More then 3 month old topic, but I just wanted to say I'm interested in tig-art 36mm manifold.

I suppose I'll just have to weld up my old one..?

Sorry this project is on hold for me.

I'm probably moving to Houston in January. The company I work for has shut their office here in Calgary so the only real option for me is to transfer to Houston. I doubt I can take the car into the USA so it'll be put into storage in Canada in case I decide to return.

The engine had started burning a lot of oil, about 1 litre per 600 km so that would need fixing before I considered a new manifold. I suspect either the rings haven't bedded properly or the cylinder liners are scratched.

John

That's a shame John

hope you get the engine sorted, 1 litre per 600km is a LOT, there must be some serious blow by.

I may go for a private purchase soon, however I need to know what bits Tig-Art can supply for the ext wastegate, as the bypass pipe would have to be mated to the downpipe I have etc..

I'll e-mail them for some info, as the manifold on it's own is only 1/2 of the battle.

I think I got my measurements wrong, it's 500 ml per 600 km. It's still a lot.

I have to top up with oil every time I refuel which is not right.

Good luck with the purchase.

John

Funny enough it's still below what Fiat describes as "too much" in the handbook.. (1l/1000km). Shame still, you're sure it's not the turbo then?