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EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion #1097673
07/09/2010 11:11
07/09/2010 11:11

I
I8AV8
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I8AV8
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Flame suit on

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1097690
07/09/2010 11:39
07/09/2010 11:39

I
I8AV8
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I8AV8
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click to enlarge

click to enlarge

I am starting off with the interior of the car. We coated interior bits and pieces as well as certain exterior components with a cellulose based product.

We went for a basket weave pattern and the finish is as smooth as a painted surface.

The coating is cellulose based; a thin film (pattern) is floated on water, an activator is applied to the surface of the part and then dippped into the water/ onto the film which is in the process of dissolving.

As the part enters the water the cellulose with the pattern on it starts to react with the activator and sticks to the part. The pattern sticks to where ever the water gets to.

After the curing process has finished we applied a clear coat over the whole part.


Last edited by I8AV8; 07/09/2010 11:52.
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1097778
07/09/2010 13:34
07/09/2010 13:34
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,033
Carlisle
Rob40 Offline
Club Member 1717
Rob40  Offline
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Enjoying the ride

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,033
Carlisle
Looks really good but i think it will suit the lighter colours better as it stands out more.


This is how it should have come out of Torino!
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: Rob40] #1098086
07/09/2010 21:10
07/09/2010 21:10

S
shinyshoes
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shinyshoes
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hate it. sorry


coat

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1098093
07/09/2010 21:17
07/09/2010 21:17
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,090
highlands
jimboy Offline
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jimboy  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,090
highlands
Not for me, but at least the workmanship looks very good.


I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: jimboy] #1098110
07/09/2010 21:53
07/09/2010 21:53
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,004
Leeds
M
MattM Offline
I need some sleep
MattM  Offline
I need some sleep
M

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,004
Leeds
This looks awesome. Right up my street, will be watching the build with interest

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: MattM] #1098238
08/09/2010 09:23
08/09/2010 09:23

N
Nobby
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Nobby
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N



Good luck with the build, plenty of photos please smile

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1098260
08/09/2010 09:59
08/09/2010 09:59

S
suba
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suba
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S



I've just looked through your spec list - that is an awesome spec, and will be one hell of a build, though I think 575 bhp from the 2l engine is going to be more than a little laggy, unless you are going for a monster rev limit (I notice that you have got hydraulic lifters in the spec).

You have also said that you are using the standard head with match exhaust ports? Not sure why you would not want the head worked given the amount of money you are putting into the project?

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1098261
08/09/2010 10:00
08/09/2010 10:00

M
Marco20valveT
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Marco20valveT
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M



this is going to se interesting!!
as Nobby said we all want loads of photos!!

when do you think this will be complete??

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1098431
08/09/2010 14:31
08/09/2010 14:31

I
I8AV8
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I8AV8
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I



Hi there, the head has had some extensive work done on both the inlet and exhaust ports.

I have a 2.4 Stilo head sitting on the bench, but I want to see how far I can push the standard head

Yes, Hydraulic lifters, but a local Fiat/ Alfa fundi modified the oil port on the lifter which restricts the oil flow in the lifter allowing you to run more rpm without going the solid lifter route, I will post more info once I get to the motor.

Thanks for the comments

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1098433
08/09/2010 14:38
08/09/2010 14:38

I
I8AV8
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I8AV8
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I



I am going to try and follow the following process with this build.

I plan to first post pictures of the individual components and then I will complete the installation of the components with pictures of the parts fitted.

I need to follow a process here or else I am going to mess up with this build.

I should be finsished by the end of October 2010.

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1098570
08/09/2010 19:22
08/09/2010 19:22
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,937
North wales
pinin_prestatyn Offline
Forum veteran
pinin_prestatyn  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,937
North wales
This is the most interesting Project yet bow Lots of updates and pictures please. I love a good read!



Coopless!
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1098986
09/09/2010 11:49
09/09/2010 11:49

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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Originally Posted By: I8AV8
Splitfire or KMS engine management.


Didn't know Splitfire made an ECU.
I would advoid KMS. (You will encounter problems)

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1099132
09/09/2010 15:24
09/09/2010 15:24

I
I8AV8
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I8AV8
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I



We have a couple of cars running on KMS systems without any problems, but they are all 4 cylinder.

I have a choice of Spitronics (sorry), Gotech, Dastek and Dictator all locally developed engine mananagement systems, but I have the most experience with Spitronics and Diktator.

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1099137
09/09/2010 15:33
09/09/2010 15:33

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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I play with loads of aftermarket ECU’s in fact I have probably tried them all laugh (except at few)
Ok let me explain. Let’s assume you get the latest KMS ECU which is the MD35.

It has 6 ignition drivers but only 2 fuel drivers one of which is shared with A.L.S (but I’ll get to this later). This means it can run sequential spark but only semi sequential fuel. (two fuel drivers to run five cylinders this is already so wrong)

The first problem you will encounter is the crank sensor. KMS only allows 0-180° as the reference tooth. The Fiat crank sensor is 270° BTDC. So you either have to mount a custom toothed wheel and sensor or shift the firing order around until a cylinder becomes within the 0-180° window. You do this by 360 / 5 = 72° per cylinder.

Cylinder 1 = 270° BTDC
Cylinder 2 = 198° BTDC (270-72)
Cylinder 3 = 126° BTDC (198-72)
Cylinder 4 = 54° BTDC (126-72)
Cylinder 5 = 342° BTDC (270+72)

So we can use Cylinder number 3 or 4 as our new reference tooth. The Fiat firing order is 1,2,4,5,3 if we use cyl3 as our reference tooth the new order will become 3,1,2,4,5 if we use cyl 4 as our reference tooth then it becomes 4,5,3,1,2. (The mechanical timing of the engine doesn’t change this is ignition timing only)

So the ECU now thinks that cylinder number 3 or 4 is really cylinder number 1. You must be fully aware of this when changing any other settings and mapping the engine. (not a good start is it)

So now the spark is working (well we tricked it) what about the fuel.

Well to run fully sequential fuel we need 5 fuel drivers and a cam sensor. We only have two fuel drivers and the cam sensor which is out of phase because we moved our ignition timing. The Fiat cam sensors pick up at 78° BTDC of cyl1 but cyl1 is really now cyl3 or 4 so we now have to move our reference tooth for the cam sensor but hold on KMS only allows -180°-180°. Cylinder number 3 or 4 must be in this window or you will never achieve 720 sync. (to be honest I won’t go into detail here because we will never get 720 sync with only 2 injector drivers anyway) So now that you know you can only run batch injection how will you control 1000cc injectors with this method. (The ECU will never idle or fuel nicely)

Next A.L.S Well you won’t have that feature since it shares with injector 2 which we will need to use to drive the fuel. (but you didn’t want it any ways)

Idle, yet another problem as we use a Bosch PWM 3 wire so we need two idle control wires the KMS has one. The solution change to a two wire idle control valve like Ford or use scattered spark to idle. (not ideal especially with 1000cc injectors)

Next is your AUX functions. Great it has three of these but hold on two of them we have to use for very basic features.
AUX 1 will be used for cooling Fan
AUX 2 will be used for the VVC (it only has two conditions but we need three, TPS, RPM & coolant temp) o well guess we will be using only two of these.
AUX 3 will be used to control the water injection I would have put three conditions her (inlet temp, RPM and boost) but we can only use two.

You have run out of AUX's should you need more (the turbo boost control might be used as a fourth AUX but still)

Dare I begin to explain how poor the software is?

The bottom line is this ECU is far too basic for your setup in fact it struggles to control the standard engine let alone yours which needs a better level of control. Seriously scrap the KMS get a refund or sell it on if you have already purchased it’s going to give you nothing but headache.

Look at any of these:
OMEX710, Haltech Sport 2000, Gems EM36, AEM, Megasquirt MS3, Syvecs S6GP, Link G4 Xtreme.

If you need any further advice regarding aftermarket ECU’s just drop me a PM.

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1099155
09/09/2010 16:05
09/09/2010 16:05
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725
London
kj16v Offline
My life on the forum
kj16v  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725
London
^^ Great post! ^^

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: kj16v] #1099159
09/09/2010 16:11
09/09/2010 16:11

S
shinyshoes
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shinyshoes
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as per one of my recent posts, turboJ -

i am constantly staggered by the level of technichal knowledge on this forum.

very, very impressive.


bow bow bow

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1099443
10/09/2010 08:05
10/09/2010 08:05

I
I8AV8
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I8AV8
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I



Thanks for the write up on the KMS system, I will keep it in mind, but you do have the option of running batch injection or fitting additional ignition and injection modules.

I do agree with you that we still have to do quite a bit of work on the EMU side, but I do have the option of using locally developed EMU that has been used in the Stilo Abarth.

The water injection and electric water pump have their own controllers and will not be controlled by the EMU.

I really appreciate your input in this regard and keep it coming.

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1099503
10/09/2010 10:10
10/09/2010 10:10

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



The additional modules have nothing to do with additional injectors or ignition, they are for coils with internal drivers (TTL driven) and low impedance injectors. (You don’t have either) The ECU has two injector drivers and that’s the bottom line.

Also why 1000cc injectors that is too much overkill for 575BHP. You WILL struggle at idle and part throttle and cold start. Get the 630cc @ 3.8Bar or 700cc.

Going standalone and not using the ECU to control the water injection is also a big mistake you can do so much more with the management than any self-owned controller. Also whilst on the subject of water injection why are you direct port injecting into each cylinder you should have a single injector before the throttle allowing time to mix and cool the intake charge. The direct port injection is for NOS. You should use your twin rail for staged injection like 330cc injectors and 440cc but you will need a proper ECU. That way you will ensure better drivability.

I have just looked at the ECU's you have mentioned.
Spitronics - Just forget its worse than KMS
Gotech - Just forget it worse than KMS
Dastek - I's piggy back not standalone
Dictator - I just keep finding Hitler laugh

Matt forget these ECU's they are Mickey Mouse go look at the ones I listed above

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1099752
10/09/2010 17:21
10/09/2010 17:21
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level
knight7660  Offline
Competition Level

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
Im going DTA s 80 pro for the standalone because its been well proven so far with the 20 valve motor


LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: knight7660] #1099793
10/09/2010 18:05
10/09/2010 18:05

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



Really. I had to submit a CCJ to take them to court over the P8 PRO when it did the same as the KMS above to my engine just to get a refund because it couldn’t run the 5 cylinder Fiat properly. I would strongly advise against the DTA for five cylinder Fiat. Support is poor and no base map supplied and the software is ropey. You have been warned.

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: knight7660] #1099999
11/09/2010 09:38
11/09/2010 09:38
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,033
Carlisle
Rob40 Offline
Club Member 1717
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Enjoying the ride

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,033
Carlisle
Originally Posted By: knight7660
Im going DTA s 80 pro for the standalone because its been well proven so far with the 20 valve motor


cool


This is how it should have come out of Torino!
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1100688
13/09/2010 08:01
13/09/2010 08:01
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
Stichl Offline
Making a profit
Stichl  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
Originally Posted By: TurboJ
I play with loads of aftermarket ECU’s in fact I have probably tried them all laugh (except at few)
Ok let me explain. Let’s assume you get the latest KMS ECU which is the MD35.

It has 6 ignition drivers but only 2 fuel drivers one of which is shared with A.L.S (but I’ll get to this later). This means it can run sequential spark but only semi sequential fuel. (two fuel drivers to run five cylinders this is already so wrong)

The first problem you will encounter is the crank sensor. KMS only allows 0-180° as the reference tooth. The Fiat crank sensor is 270° BTDC. So you either have to mount a custom toothed wheel and sensor or shift the firing order around until a cylinder becomes within the 0-180° window. You do this by 360 / 5 = 72° per cylinder.

Cylinder 1 = 270° BTDC
Cylinder 2 = 198° BTDC (270-72)
Cylinder 3 = 126° BTDC (198-72)
Cylinder 4 = 54° BTDC (126-72)
Cylinder 5 = 342° BTDC (270+72)

So we can use Cylinder number 3 or 4 as our new reference tooth. The Fiat firing order is 1,2,4,5,3 if we use cyl3 as our reference tooth the new order will become 3,1,2,4,5 if we use cyl 4 as our reference tooth then it becomes 4,5,3,1,2. (The mechanical timing of the engine doesn’t change this is ignition timing only)

So the ECU now thinks that cylinder number 3 or 4 is really cylinder number 1. You must be fully aware of this when changing any other settings and mapping the engine. (not a good start is it)

So now the spark is working (well we tricked it) what about the fuel.

Well to run fully sequential fuel we need 5 fuel drivers and a cam sensor. We only have two fuel drivers and the cam sensor which is out of phase because we moved our ignition timing. The Fiat cam sensors pick up at 78° BTDC of cyl1 but cyl1 is really now cyl3 or 4 so we now have to move our reference tooth for the cam sensor but hold on KMS only allows -180°-180°. Cylinder number 3 or 4 must be in this window or you will never achieve 720 sync. (to be honest I won’t go into detail here because we will never get 720 sync with only 2 injector drivers anyway) So now that you know you can only run batch injection how will you control 1000cc injectors with this method. (The ECU will never idle or fuel nicely)

Next A.L.S Well you won’t have that feature since it shares with injector 2 which we will need to use to drive the fuel. (but you didn’t want it any ways)

Idle, yet another problem as we use a Bosch PWM 3 wire so we need two idle control wires the KMS has one. The solution change to a two wire idle control valve like Ford or use scattered spark to idle. (not ideal especially with 1000cc injectors)

Next is your AUX functions. Great it has three of these but hold on two of them we have to use for very basic features.
AUX 1 will be used for cooling Fan
AUX 2 will be used for the VVC (it only has two conditions but we need three, TPS, RPM & coolant temp) o well guess we will be using only two of these.
AUX 3 will be used to control the water injection I would have put three conditions her (inlet temp, RPM and boost) but we can only use two.

You have run out of AUX's should you need more (the turbo boost control might be used as a fourth AUX but still)

Dare I begin to explain how poor the software is?

The bottom line is this ECU is far too basic for your setup in fact it struggles to control the standard engine let alone yours which needs a better level of control. Seriously scrap the KMS get a refund or sell it on if you have already purchased it’s going to give you nothing but headache.

Look at any of these:
OMEX710, Haltech Sport 2000, Gems EM36, AEM, Megasquirt MS3, Syvecs S6GP, Link G4 Xtreme.

If you need any further advice regarding aftermarket ECU’s just drop me a PM.

I have the KMS MP25 installed. You are right stating that there are better ECU’s on market. But…
To the pro’s: Software is very simple to program – the possibilities are sufficient also for a High-tuned car. It is very simple to use existing sensors and to adjust them. I know a lot of very good tuners in Germany using this ECU.
There are a lot of component parts available for this ECU.

To the con’s:
Batch injection only, as you stated. But is this really a con?!
Sequential injection was installed because of tougher emission laws at at low rpm and part throttle.
Here you can get the problem that you get a wall- wet manifold, because you advance your injection and in low revs this fuel spray remains into manifold for a “long” time.
Means that you theoretically can get problems at idle speed with a correct air fuel ratio.
I don’t have any problems – I have 750cc injectors installed – I have a very good fuel ratio at idle and at mot I got better values than with original ECU. This was the main reason, that I got German TUEV with my engine… and German Tuev is very very hard!
I have a broadband lambda probe installed.
At higher revs you won’t have any disadvantages with batch injection any more. The time is too short – on contrary: you have the advantage to use smaller injectors, because you have more time to inject the fuel…
Next advantage is that it is much easier to install – you won’t have timing problems and it is cheaper…
To the installation:
I use Cylinder number 1 as reference tooth – my ECU is installed at 88 degrees (or 85 degrees – I don’t know exactly this moment) – no problem – therefore I don’t catch your problems with this ECU?!!
To real con’s of the KMS-ECU:
- too few aux channels – I need an additional aux channel to get a 5cyclinder running (problem of the little MP25). Here you are completely right. Thus I installed an “old style mechanic temperature sensor” to have enough AUX left. But I think that the newer KMS have more Aux meanwhile.
- IDLE: You would need a 2-wire- regulator. I realized a idle with no regulator – no bigger problem with one exception… If you start your air con at idle the engine will stall – this is not nice…
- No knocking device implemented

If you can live with these con’s then the KMS is a good choice from my opinion…
Nevertheless – an AEM or similar definitely has more options… there you are right.

Juergen


20VT coupegrale 4x4
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: Stichl] #1100723
13/09/2010 09:47
13/09/2010 09:47

I
I8AV8
Unregistered
I8AV8
Unregistered
I



Thanks for your comments, I am glad that Juergen also commented since I noticed from his specification that he is running a KMS system.

To be honest I think the most important aspect of a EMU is the person setting it up, in ZA there are a number of EMU's available and I agree that they are not on par with the best Oz and UK units, but they work and they are good value for money.

Once I have completed the build and we are approaching start up I will call on all the expertise on the forum for advice regarding the EMU, it is the one area that I am lacking in experience and expertise when it comes to the 20VT.

What is your opinion on the Magneti Marelli SRA/F unit?

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1100748
13/09/2010 10:56
13/09/2010 10:56

S
suba
Unregistered
suba
Unregistered
S



If you are going to set the ECU up yourself then you want something that is simple, and proven to work on the 5 cly engine.

If someone else is going to do it and they are going to charge you by the hour then the above is also true.

My level of knowledge is not as high as TurboJ, but when I looked into ECU's for the 5 cyl application lots of suppliers were not interested, e.g. emerald. I narrowed it down to Motec M800 and Omex710. They're not the cheapest, but going to a standalone ECU is not cheap in itself, and for the amount of money the whole spec is going to cost it is worth going the extra mile for something that is less of a headache in the long run.

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: Stichl] #1101204
14/09/2010 11:02
14/09/2010 11:02

T
TurboJ
Unregistered
TurboJ
Unregistered
T



I expect you to defend KMS because you have it on your car but you can’t seriously be suggesting Matt to buy one when you compare it to other options on the market. I am not aware of a single advantage of using KMS over any of the other ECU’s I suggested (Except price on one or two).

Regarding batch fuelling in fact the OE ECU run’s batch fuel for startup then switches over to sequential. Any good ECU can use advanced wall wetting, and switch between batch and sequential these days and even though it may not be totally noticeable on the road if mapped well you will see the difference in fuel economy. The bottom line is if it can’t do sequential it simply hasn't got enough drivers. The cost of KMS doesn’t justify the cons it has and to be honest it's nowhere near on par with the other ECU's. For £815 + VAT plus the extra bits you’ll need that is really expensive. Consider Mega Squirt MS3 can do much, much more for £500 all in wink . OMEX & DTA (Did I just swear lol) is the same price as KMS and so much more advanced. The others are a slight cut above the rest i.e £1000 + VAT but well worth paying the premium for.

Matt when the time is right PM me the budget you have for ECU’s and I will advise you on the best options as ECU firmware software and prices are forever changing.

Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1101286
14/09/2010 14:11
14/09/2010 14:11

M
maastiff
Unregistered
maastiff
Unregistered
M



very interesting project, best of luck with it. I'm intrigued as to what the results will be. Can't see how you would get anywhere near 999kgs though, especially when you are adding aesthetic pieces such as gear selector gate, and extra parts such as full undertrayand ICE?? if you want lightweight , less is more!! not a criticism, just an observation!

Last edited by maastiff; 14/09/2010 18:22. Reason: typing
Re: EVO Project RSR 575 Discussion [Re: ] #1105236
21/09/2010 20:15
21/09/2010 20:15

P
patch234
Unregistered
patch234
Unregistered
P



This looks like a great adventure, good luck with it all. I hope it all goes to plan. I've just watched the entire series of 'Kit Car Crisis' on Discovery (Sky +'d it). That looked hard, this project seems (to me anyway) to be 10X the involvement.

All the best, I'll be following this with a genuine interest.


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