Monday 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR Power Runs after 5pm

Guys I am booked at Surrey RR to undertake some dyno runs to see how my coop is performing.You are welcome to join me and save on normal cost. Please ring SRR directly and book a place anytime after 5pm. Its booked under Nazo.

I will be there from 4ish, along with a very special person indeed

The more we have the cheaper the cost of Power Run/Dyno. however there are only 3 additional places available

Surrey Rolling Road Ltd,
Unit 120, Qinetiq Chobham lane,
Surrey, KT16 0EE
Email: srr@surreyrollingroad.co.uk
Phone : 01276 686111
Mobile : 07787 114847
http://www.surreyrollingroad.co.uk/index.php

cheers

Nazo

p.s. I will not be available between Friday evening until Sunday evening, as I am climbing mountains and no signal or WWW access

I might come along, hell I might ring Charlie and book myself in. Didn't know Stan was coming too though?

He he he.. nice one.. Would be great to meet up again.

Did you get the springs on?

Let me know if you get booked in..

I quite fancy this, I think I can get there for about 5 ish.

Naz, you bought springs, not me (but no, not fitted the billies )

OK ..my bad..lol

I will be back on Sunday night to check who else has got booked, thereafter see you guys Monday.

cheers

I would love to have come but I'm working nights on Monday and need to be back by 1800. With a 1:20 drive I just can't make it.

If there are enough people interested but can make this date then I'll sort out another date for us.

I'd be up for going but like Chris/OO7 i can't drive up there in time and I'm also having an MOT / new suspension fitted.

Would be up for it on a different day

Ok got back this evening..

Would be excellent to meet up with as many coop'sters as possible, even if not undertaking RR.

There may well be another trip sometime soon.

Are still going though Nazo?

good luck guys!
let us know how your cars get on!!

My interior fan has stopped working again, the connector on the resistor looks like history, so not driving the Coupe at the mo' but will try to turn up in the 306 cabby

Yes indeed

Really sorry to hear this, hope to see you in any case.

So who is the secret person? Barbz? PM if you wish, i may pop down since i'm not working today

Ill pop down for a nose around.

Well, i turned up and the secret person was Barbz who got 437bhp with 1.1bar of boost and no real mapping on it. I will post more tomorrow with video's and photo's

Wish I was there to see it happen!!!

That's a massive figure at 1.1 bar!!
I can't wait to see what happens when flea gets his hads on it!

How did every one else get on??

Finally got my coop dyno'd, after all the hard earned cash left my pockets with the new mods.

Coop'sters at the RR were me, barbz and tecnics.. along with elegant company of Begbie.

Mods and Engine work by the legend barbz
Map by the wizard called Flea

My RR Results = 325bhp @ 1.3bar









SurreyRR (charlie) commented that the coop is running dangeroulsy lean, and that more power delivery can be made above 6k revs. Furthermore its making all the power at 1.3bar boost and considering my mods I should be able to run upto 1.6bar (as did tecnics at the same time, who has a similar setup).

Special and personal Thanks to all that attended

Disappointed with results to be honest, so welcome any feedback and comments please.

cheers

Nazo

Nazo's run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMbwppW3Zts

Barbz run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXsGBGJTqG8

Technics run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g0-ZjurhDs

Results I don't think people were expecting. Nazo's fuelling was off running around 12.3 - 12.5, Barbz was only running 1.1bar at the top end due to what he has done to his turbo, plus was running on a base map without any of the ignition being played with and Technics power run was a lot less than what he had got from the Bristol dyno. Charlie even commented on the turbo and saying that it shouldn't make the power that was previously dyno'd at.

Nazo's Power and Fuel


Nazo's Power and Torque


Barbz Power and Fuel


Technics Power and Fuel


Technics immaculate engine bay

Yeah I was abit disappointed with that figure. Got one run on 329bhp and 330 lb torque. That wasn't too bad.
But, yes charlie said my old run on the dastek was abit high and that dasteks generally over read.
Then again barbz said that dyno dynamics can under read, and on the road you will get about more power.

But the fueling was spot on, and it drives great.

Good to meet you all last night, and you again Alexis.

The old dyno debate + fueling + every other factor... I'll add more later

Thanks mate, great to catch up with some ol' faces. Managed to mess around with the apexi today and held 1.5bar to the limiter, O' MY GOD! Gonna kiss goodbye to my driving license if i go any higher.

Barbz, why not test it out on track with every one in march?

doesn't want to get wasted by me most likely

Still waiting. Would love to know how there is a 70bhp discrepancy on Technics car between 2 dyno's. Surrey RR with 270-ish @ the wheels and the one you use with 340-ish @ the wheels

And of course, I'm waiting too. Lol.

People get way too hung up on bhp figures on rolling roads IMO. I see rolling roads as a way of making sure your car is running right. Not to give people big heads because they have 5.2bhp more than somebody else or whatever. Yes its nice to have a nice headline figure but it isn't the be all and end all and doesn't always tell the whole story.

How many factors come into power figures? Temperatures (lots of them), is there enough load on the rollers to ensure you get the optimum boost etc and of course which dyno you use. The ones in Bristol may well overread or whatever, but if you want to see if you have lost power or gained then you are probably best going back to the same ones.

The best way to see if you have made gains is on the black stuff.

guys, i no my words do not mean alot when things like this come up...

but tbh rolling roads differ so much its scary.

you could go to a different RR and happily read 50bhp more than what you got from the flea!

the oly way to check your car is still doing what it should is by going to the same RR...

I agree with that school of thought
It'll be AWESOME if it turned out that my run is actually 507.7bhp @ 1.2bar on a dastek dyno, means i've taken top spot on FC league table. 1.8bar here we come!

well tbh Babz, your not a million mailes away!!

with a bit of flea magic and 1.8bar of boost i think you may do it!!!

There is one clear aspect that the RR helped me with, and that is the lean fuelling that tapers off as the power increases. As I have a high compression engine surely the fuel load should be greater, rather then leaned off?

I am sure someone can explain the graphs better?

Something I just thought of though that was interesting is that I made 305bhp on 1 bar. Very happy with that.
But to add 60% more boost and only make another 25bhp was lame. (lots more torque though)

Well if you are dissapointed with your dyno results, take heart in the fact that you will not a find another dyno that reads lower than a Dyno Dynamics. It's not called the heartbreaker dyno for nothing, of course being the lowest does not make it the most accurate despite this trite association.

As a tuner, what I need from a dyno is paramount consistency back to back and between modifications. It should also give accurate real world results i.e. it must reflect the road environment, afterall that is where the car lives not the dyno. Beyond that I am not too concerned, you can decide for yourself whether you think the "results" of any dyno are correct, but if the car performs in real conditions then that’s all it can do. I don’t just tune Coupes, in fact many other cars factory or aftermarket ECUs. I also don’t operate the dyno, but I have seen many, many cars come through, with some owners elated and others disappointed. A Norris Evo makes 200bhp less than it should, a factory tuned Farbio GTS 400 only makes 380bhp (they had the head tuner from MBE tuning just after I mapped Technic’s Coupe to 360bhp). The list could go on, but it matters not because I tune to the absolute safe limit, so if they are quicker than an RS4, the same as a 360 or a bit slower than a 430… well it’s a moot point.

This leads me to air fuel ratio measurements. Unfortunately this is where dynos can be very poor for modern cars i.e. significant variance, because it is very hard to replicate the load provided by the road. Too little and the engine spins too freely resulting in lower/later boost and a slightly leaner mixture. Too much and the engine is heavily loaded resulting in higher temperatures and associated issues, and of course a richer air fuel ratio. Then of course you have slight variances between lambda sensors, calibrated or not, they can and do vary by a few points. I’ll say more on this later.

So to the cars…

I haven’t finished mapping Barbz’s car especially at the top end due to some issues, but his estimated map is pretty darn close, something only experience can bring with this engine. It actually runs slighty richer on the road as set by me, again no surprise and confirmed by Barbz’s own wideband. The 2.4 is running 720cc injectors, no problem to pass the MOT emissions even with a dodgy cat, and it gets the same fuel economy as his Audi 1.8t. Barbz told me he didn’t think his car was more than 350bhp, nice surprise eh, I called the torque pretty much spot on too

Technics car, well just to confirm the last time I tuned and dynoed the car it gave 361bhp & 344lbs/ft, with significant gains in the mid-range. I have no issues with a Dyno Dynamics giving lower figures, this is to be expected, and is fairly well correlated with every other dyno I have used. Once again the fueling on the road is slightly richer than recorded (as set by me for this particular car). The turbo certainly is capable of 360bhp, especially with the rest of the setup. It’s a cracking car, and in my top two that I have ever tuned… I love it.

Nazo's car, wow this one really tried to beat me up over the Christmas period! I hope you have understood what I explained on the phone without being too technical. There were so many issues to overcome before this car had a chance to come alive, but the results even for a Dyno Dynamics are good. I estimated 330-350bhp for my dyno, so 326bhp & 318lbs/ft is pretty darn great for 1.4bar on a DD. The boost is a little shy of what it gives on the road, again no surprise, but perhaps a little left on the table. I should note there are significant reasons for the lower boost and restricted rpm limiter, as already explained to Nazo. If only tuning was as simple as “I am forged”, turn up the boost and give the “fueling” to match… it’s not. I don’t blame Charlie from Surrey RR for saying what he did, it’s his job to try to enlighten the customer with rudimentary information. Nazo’s car has very high compression, a static compression test gave between 220-240psi for all five cylinders. Compare this to 150psi for a factory Coupe, and 170-180psi for some tuned Coupes. It was not possible to run more boost, the ignition is heavily retarded even at 1.4bar, and severe detonation exists above 6000rpm with elevated EGTs. I’m sure if you asked Charlie again with this extra information he might choose to pass on his comments.

As for the fueling being “dangerously lean”, well it is clear to see from the AFR curve that it has been mapped, but even if it was 12.5 on the road (which it is not), dangerously lean it is also not! Nazo has a very unique exhaust system, quad 2” tail pipes. There is simply no way of getting an accurate reading from here, hell the lambda probe will only go in an inch! So before I could even map Nazo’s car I had to weld a lambda boss in the downpipe, quite simply any measurment from the tailpipe will be contaminated. I mapped Nazo’s car slightly leaner than most at 12 -11.8, but I have and do map cars leaner still. There is no definitive air fuel ratio target, the engine likes what it needs in conjunction with every other parameter, nothing more. If I told you that there are factory turbo cars running 14.5 all the way through... well there are, and even more running in the 13s. On the flip side you will have some cars running in the 10s from factory, cue some rice machines.

So to sum up, well dynos help me tune cars so that they are better than they were before, that's it. Beyond that, listen to your tuner and rest safe in the knowledge that your car is performing to a most superior level!

Now then, any questions

Questions? Yes, run that by me again (just kidding )

^^^^^^ brilliant post ^^^^

Thanks Leighton.
I have always said that my car on the road is an angry little devil, the torque is quite something!
As for the bhp figure, yes it was 361bhp when we changed the boost controller, as the other one playing up, so things changed slightly.

What is funny though is today I went to meet rob40 and barbz, seen as they were only 25 mins drive away from me and we were all nosing around under my bonnet and barbz spotted something disconnected from one of the main boost pipes, I'm sure if he reads this he will mention exactly what it was.
But basically I had a boost leak! Oh dear. That might explain part of it! Lol.

P.S went down there today to have a chat about going for a GT2871r, I'm so stuck on what to do.
I think I need to go in a 400bhp coop before I decide.

Anyway thanks once again for the comments Leighton, good write up and that heartbreaker link made me laugh, never heard that before.

Yeah, when you gonna put me on top spot then??????Eh!

To get a better picture I am keen to have my coop dyno'd on the dastek dyno aswell, as it will show a more fair picture on the improvement.

cheers for the explanation.

nazo

Where is the closest dastek Nazo?

I may join you guys in the quest for the ultimate dyno figure.....

Ha ha. I was just interested where. I've had enough of dynos.

i believe the closest Dastek is on the grounds of Castle Combe Racing Circuit

Castle Combe

Yes looking for a magic pub-talk figure, however currently my spool up is shatteringly fast and i get all the power down

isn't there one at Andover?