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Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1158743
19/01/2011 12:43
19/01/2011 12:43

M
Marco20valveT
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Marco20valveT
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M



well tbh Babz, your not a million mailes away!!

with a bit of flea magic and 1.8bar of boost i think you may do it!!!

Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1158770
19/01/2011 13:40
19/01/2011 13:40

N
Nazo
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Nazo
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N



There is one clear aspect that the RR helped me with, and that is the lean fuelling that tapers off as the power increases. As I have a high compression engine surely the fuel load should be greater, rather then leaned off?

I am sure someone can explain the graphs better?

Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1158791
19/01/2011 14:31
19/01/2011 14:31
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
technics Offline
I need some sleep
technics  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
Something I just thought of though that was interesting is that I made 305bhp on 1 bar. Very happy with that.
But to add 60% more boost and only make another 25bhp was lame. (lots more torque though)


Now in the 400+ bhp club!
Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: technics] #1159032
19/01/2011 22:49
19/01/2011 22:49
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea Offline
Forum is my life
Flea  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Well if you are dissapointed with your dyno results, take heart in the fact that you will not a find another dyno that reads lower than a Dyno Dynamics. It's not called the heartbreaker dyno for nothing, of course being the lowest does not make it the most accurate despite this trite association.

As a tuner, what I need from a dyno is paramount consistency back to back and between modifications. It should also give accurate real world results i.e. it must reflect the road environment, afterall that is where the car lives not the dyno. Beyond that I am not too concerned, you can decide for yourself whether you think the "results" of any dyno are correct, but if the car performs in real conditions then that’s all it can do. I don’t just tune Coupes, in fact many other cars factory or aftermarket ECUs. I also don’t operate the dyno, but I have seen many, many cars come through, with some owners elated and others disappointed. A Norris Evo makes 200bhp less than it should, a factory tuned Farbio GTS 400 only makes 380bhp (they had the head tuner from MBE tuning just after I mapped Technic’s Coupe to 360bhp). The list could go on, but it matters not because I tune to the absolute safe limit, so if they are quicker than an RS4, the same as a 360 or a bit slower than a 430… well it’s a moot point.

This leads me to air fuel ratio measurements. Unfortunately this is where dynos can be very poor for modern cars i.e. significant variance, because it is very hard to replicate the load provided by the road. Too little and the engine spins too freely resulting in lower/later boost and a slightly leaner mixture. Too much and the engine is heavily loaded resulting in higher temperatures and associated issues, and of course a richer air fuel ratio. Then of course you have slight variances between lambda sensors, calibrated or not, they can and do vary by a few points. I’ll say more on this later.

So to the cars…

I haven’t finished mapping Barbz’s car especially at the top end due to some issues, but his estimated map is pretty darn close, something only experience can bring with this engine. It actually runs slighty richer on the road as set by me, again no surprise and confirmed by Barbz’s own wideband. The 2.4 is running 720cc injectors, no problem to pass the MOT emissions even with a dodgy cat, and it gets the same fuel economy as his Audi 1.8t. Barbz told me he didn’t think his car was more than 350bhp, nice surprise eh, I called the torque pretty much spot on too wink

Technics car, well just to confirm the last time I tuned and dynoed the car it gave 361bhp & 344lbs/ft, with significant gains in the mid-range. I have no issues with a Dyno Dynamics giving lower figures, this is to be expected, and is fairly well correlated with every other dyno I have used. Once again the fueling on the road is slightly richer than recorded (as set by me for this particular car). The turbo certainly is capable of 360bhp, especially with the rest of the setup. It’s a cracking car, and in my top two that I have ever tuned… I love it.

Nazo's car, wow this one really tried to beat me up over the Christmas period! I hope you have understood what I explained on the phone without being too technical. There were so many issues to overcome before this car had a chance to come alive, but the results even for a Dyno Dynamics are good. I estimated 330-350bhp for my dyno, so 326bhp & 318lbs/ft is pretty darn great for 1.4bar on a DD. The boost is a little shy of what it gives on the road, again no surprise, but perhaps a little left on the table. I should note there are significant reasons for the lower boost and restricted rpm limiter, as already explained to Nazo. If only tuning was as simple as “I am forged”, turn up the boost and give the “fueling” to match… it’s not. I don’t blame Charlie from Surrey RR for saying what he did, it’s his job to try to enlighten the customer with rudimentary information. Nazo’s car has very high compression, a static compression test gave between 220-240psi for all five cylinders. Compare this to 150psi for a factory Coupe, and 170-180psi for some tuned Coupes. It was not possible to run more boost, the ignition is heavily retarded even at 1.4bar, and severe detonation exists above 6000rpm with elevated EGTs. I’m sure if you asked Charlie again with this extra information he might choose to pass on his comments.

As for the fueling being “dangerously lean”, well it is clear to see from the AFR curve that it has been mapped, but even if it was 12.5 on the road (which it is not), dangerously lean it is also not! Nazo has a very unique exhaust system, quad 2” tail pipes. There is simply no way of getting an accurate reading from here, hell the lambda probe will only go in an inch! So before I could even map Nazo’s car I had to weld a lambda boss in the downpipe, quite simply any measurment from the tailpipe will be contaminated. I mapped Nazo’s car slightly leaner than most at 12 -11.8, but I have and do map cars leaner still. There is no definitive air fuel ratio target, the engine likes what it needs in conjunction with every other parameter, nothing more. If I told you that there are factory turbo cars running 14.5 all the way through... well there are, and even more running in the 13s. On the flip side you will have some cars running in the 10s from factory, cue some rice machines.

So to sum up, well dynos help me tune cars so that they are better than they were before, that's it. Beyond that, listen to your tuner and rest safe in the knowledge that your car is performing to a most superior level!

Now then, any questions smile


[Linked Image]

Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: Flea] #1159042
19/01/2011 23:00
19/01/2011 23:00
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,410
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
DaveG  Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,410
Lightwater, Surrey
Questions? Yes, run that by me again crazy (just kidding tongue )


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: DaveG] #1159063
19/01/2011 23:24
19/01/2011 23:24

M
Marco20valveT
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Marco20valveT
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M



^^^^^^ brilliant post ^^^^

Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1159092
20/01/2011 00:21
20/01/2011 00:21
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
technics Offline
I need some sleep
technics  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
Thanks Leighton.
I have always said that my car on the road is an angry little devil, the torque is quite something!
As for the bhp figure, yes it was 361bhp when we changed the boost controller, as the other one playing up, so things changed slightly.

What is funny though is today I went to meet rob40 and barbz, seen as they were only 25 mins drive away from me and we were all nosing around under my bonnet and barbz spotted something disconnected from one of the main boost pipes, I'm sure if he reads this he will mention exactly what it was.
But basically I had a boost leak! Oh dear. That might explain part of it! Lol.

P.S went down there today to have a chat about going for a GT2871r, I'm so stuck on what to do.
I think I need to go in a 400bhp coop before I decide.

Anyway thanks once again for the comments Leighton, good write up and that heartbreaker link made me laugh, never heard that before.


Last edited by technics; 20/01/2011 00:38.

Now in the 400+ bhp club!
Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: Flea] #1159112
20/01/2011 03:27
20/01/2011 03:27

B
Barbz
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Barbz
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B



Quote:
Now then, any questions



Yeah, when you gonna put me on top spot then??????Eh! wink

Last edited by Barbz; 20/01/2011 03:31.
Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1159263
20/01/2011 14:45
20/01/2011 14:45

N
Nazo
Unregistered
Nazo
Unregistered
N



To get a better picture I am keen to have my coop dyno'd on the dastek dyno aswell, as it will show a more fair picture on the improvement.

cheers for the explanation.

nazo

Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1159271
20/01/2011 14:56
20/01/2011 14:56
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
technics Offline
I need some sleep
technics  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
Where is the closest dastek Nazo?


Now in the 400+ bhp club!
Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1159450
20/01/2011 18:36
20/01/2011 18:36

B
Barbz
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Barbz
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B



I may join you guys in the quest for the ultimate dyno figure.....

Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1159521
20/01/2011 20:15
20/01/2011 20:15
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
technics Offline
I need some sleep
technics  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
Ha ha. I was just interested where. I've had enough of dynos.


Now in the 400+ bhp club!
Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: technics] #1159767
21/01/2011 09:51
21/01/2011 09:51

N
Nazo
Unregistered
Nazo
Unregistered
N



i believe the closest Dastek is on the grounds of Castle Combe Racing Circuit

Castle Combe

Yes looking for a magic pub-talk figure, however currently my spool up is shatteringly fast and i get all the power down laugh

Re: 17th Jan 2011 - Surrey RR [Re: ] #1159820
21/01/2011 11:45
21/01/2011 11:45
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,410
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
DaveG  Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,410
Lightwater, Surrey
isn't there one at Andover?


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
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