Hi

i have fitted a BMC CDA, a full powerflow, i have a decat in the garage (will this make a bit difference)

Been thinking about C&B cams but at £600 are quite alot + a dastek @ £350, although i have heard from a reliable source that 180-190 is a good estimate of power

still alot of money

another other suggestions, anyone done anything and noticed a decent improvement?

cheers

Paul
P.S. what are your oppinions on the cams?

Save your money and buy a 20vt m8

Whats the point of spending nearly £1500 on all that lot for 180bhp or so if you're lucky - when there is another model of the same car with 220bhp standard (and would annihilate even a 220bhp N/A 2.0 20v due to the huge amount of torque it produces when the turbo is spinning?).

its not worth it mate...

1) because he's already got it
2) throttle response will always be better for an n/a engine than a turbo engine
3) not everyone likes turbo engine characteristics

if you do go with the cams (and thus take the head off), I'm doing Spesso Racing gaskets discounted to fccuk members and they make one for the 20v n/a

But he's asking whether it's worth it or not.

Is it worth spending £1500 on making a N/A engine produce another 30bhp, and losing some low down torque with upgraded cams.

Throttle response is all well and good, but if you are factoring in money into the equation (and want to get value for what you spend your hard earned on) its just not worth spending the money. What I'm saying is: it's worth sacrificing throttle response and not having N/A characteristics if you want more performance, which is what the guy wants. Will a 180bhp N/A set his pants on fire compared to a turbo?

I know that there's plenty of people out there that spend stupid amounts on N/A engines, take the K series crew for example. For me, the gains in performance would have to be high enough to warrant spending however much £££ I was considering, and I don't think the results from the above tuning would satisfy me vs keeping £1500. If you're loaded then go for it!

Sorry i did not mean any offense but its always the same when you initially buy a N/A version of a car like the coup to either save money and avoid higher insurance payments, and then realise after you want more performance, the cost of achieving a 50hp increase in an N/A coupe is almost the same as getting a 100hp increase in a turbo model.

If you really must have a N/A car and want serious performance the 20v would not be my choice of car, not very helpful i know as your already have a 20v but but spending upwards of 1.5k to get your car to only 180-190hp seems a little bit like false economy.

It is a coupe tho so its still a great car

To be honest, i think a 20V NA with 180/190 bhp will eat any 20VT stock on the track.
Handling will be better due to lower weight and the power curve will show it's power where the 20VT is waiting for boost.

Try driving a honda Integra type R, maybe that performance is equal to a highly modded 20v NA.
If so.. it's just different, but a great drive!

Yeh but its not about how fast it is its about value for bhp.

You could spend 1500 quid on handling mods for a stock 20vt and then that would eat a heavily modded N/A coupe on the track.

Coupes are pretty cheap atm so were not talking about taking out a second mortgage to get a turbo model.

And though the Integra is a great car (especially on track) the 1.8 vtec unit leaves alot to be desired for fast road use.

i think this is a question most of us 20V boys have asked ourselves at least once or twice, the reason i got my n/a was simple really.

i couldent afford the insurance on a 20VT well i could but i couldent justify it, lol

and i went from a 1.4Bravo to this car so the power increase was already ginormous! i dident want to put a 20VT into a tree.

my n/a is mint, and when i say mint i mean it, full service history owned by the father of a fiat mechanic previous to me so it was well looked after, it is yellow, full leather, 40k, air con, sun roof, it is just perfect and a 2000 X reg model, when i spotted it i knew i would really struggle to get a 20VT in this condition for the £6500 that i paid.

i know that the 20VT is faster but i still smile from ear to ear when i floor it in my n/a and my s.s exhaust / induction kit lets out a bit of a grunt and i pull away from the pack, it is still a fantastic car still looks amazing and still makes me feel like a little boy when i drive it.

as soon as you realise that what you have is pretty damn impressive and a brilliant car and stop compareing it to the 20VT i think you will be a lot better off because of it.

personally i will have my 20v for another 2 years and then upgrade to a Alfa GT V6, thats my aim

No ones saying theres anything wrong with a 20v, just if you really want that much more power it makes sense to get a 20vt.

Forgot about the viscodrive... and yes, with that amount of power the viscodrive would make a difference....
Ofcourse the low down power would suffer with those cams, but would the lack of low down power be as big as with the 20VT?

Anyways, that's all off topic.
I agree... if you really want more power go for a 20VT.
I'm sure there are some great examples of mint coops for sale.

The 20V is already a pretty rapid motor compared to what else is out there on the roads. I'd personally save the money that is intended for ECU and cams upgrades - speaking as someone who once owned a tuned NA engined car, the lengths you need to go to extract noticeable extra power are huge.

That's not advocating the purchase of a 20V Turbo either. The cheapest solution here is to ignore the idea of having a "faster" car and to enjoy the excellent performance (and now noise) that this 20V makes.

Still, who am I to comment with over 300bhp... (disclaimer: I didn't pay for it)

Using hot cams on a twin cam engine doesn't always lose bottom end power/torque infact it can improve it all the way up the revs.

If your looking for more power then you could go for the cams and maybe use some throttle bodies, you'd have to get it all mapped but it should give good improvements.

Cams, separate throttle bodies, higher compression and a tubular manifold should make it a bit more powerful. (Not sure on tha manifold, as it's a 5 cyl engine. Reckon someone else know more about that. 4-2-1 doesn't really work in this case..)
As everyone already said, tuning a N/A engine is always more expensive than tuning a supercharged/turbocharged dito. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible or that it should not be done. You'll love the sound of the throttle bodies if you decide to go down that road.

Ok...

thankyou all for your posts.. i havent made mysef clear...sorry

First off i have a bravo hgt not a coupe (sorry ) which i love, i am on here because the bravo forum arent really a great help on this subject, you lot know more about power increases as you all do them, where as 20v engines arent as popular on the bravo forum

I can not insure a 20vt so unfortuneatly that is out of the question.

i have spent too much on my hgt to walk away, its had resprays and retrims etc etc so i have wasted too much money making my own to sell.

i love the looks and basically the whole car. (although i would love to have all that money back and spend it on a 20vt coupe)

ANYWAY...


i have the 20v, and i was just wondering what i can do and if anyone knows who to talk to about getting more power from her?

i have looked at a 20vt conversion, but i just can not insure it.

does anyone know if 2.4 valves fit? and if they would gain power?

anyone had head work done? if so where from, as i dont know of any 20v tuning specialists?

I know 1.5k is alot but if a turbo wasnt on option would you consider it?

thank you all for you coments i enjoyed reading them all, hopefully there are more to come.

sorry its not a coupe but its the same engine

Paul R
P.S.Hi B

Also where can i get manifolds etc, i can not find them anywhere

looked at throttle bodies but they are at least another 1k.

.....................

i have to get my cambelt changed so i am looking at changing the head over (hi rog. if you are about ) , i have 2 spare at home including a full spare engine so parts are easy enough.

Is there a tuner that tunes the 182 20v lump?

Thanks again

Paul R

charlie c had some head work done on his 20v.

have you had a spoerts exhaust fitted yet?

any pics of the car?

Have you thought about uprating the brakes/handling characteristics of the car morre, as sometimes the way to go faster is to make it stop better!

hi paul,

i have 2 non tuebo heads.

you will benefit from headwork, along with the cams and unichip mapping id estimate a 20-30bhp increase.

nobody has done headwork on the 20v to my knowledge, so there are no definate power figures available.

the problem is the cost, with the labour it isnt cheap, although you will save on the cambelt change labour if the head has to come off.

fitting the cams alone is easy, an extra hour on top of the cambelt change.

Paul i would honestly say your better off putting the money to one side and moving over to a 20vt turbo for your power as the cost to get good power gains from an NA engine isnt cheap as rog and others have said its labour cost mainly.

The money spent on mods for your NA could help pay off the insurance and extra bit you would have to pay for a turbo after selling your NA...

Not being funny KP but the guy has said he can't afford insurance on a turbo about 5 times

more to the point he has spent a sh1t load on his bravo customising it to his tastes, so has obviously got a love for it like we have on our own coupes.

good luck to him if he wants to spend a couple of grand on tuning it, we all do it.

yeah i dont mean to be but the insurance compared to the price of the mods and then the hike in insurance for a grp 19 cant be that much mroe if shopped around??

Lol -
* Kingpleb's question time. Your questions answered by the man you can trust *

Q. Hello KP my name's Sadie and my boyfriend is upset that I don't "do it". We have been seeing each other now for 3 months and I do feel I love him, however I am a virgin and don't want to rush into things. But I don't want to lose him. What do you advise?

A. Hello Sadie, I would suggest going down the Turbocharging route if possible, with money saved not performing intercourse with boys being saved to ultimately buy a turbo. Hope this helps. KP.


More next week: KP helps save a gay marriage, via turbo.

hey it worked for you Pinin so whats up lol

***see the light people, See that turbos are the way***

PMPL

to time cams properly then the head needs to be off, even the cam marks are not 100%. Anyway if you can do some work yourself then this will help. Your question about 2.4 valves indicates that maybe some back ground reading on engine tuning theory is required as there is no room for error in the NA tuning game, therefore know what you want to do and how you want it done to start with. There are a great deal of BS companies out there who will take your money and give you a hash job.

You will get no real gain unless you spend 4k minimum, even that is a small sum. Real decent engine builders charge a lot of money for their work, and you most definitely pay for what you get. Good components are expensive too and many custom bits take a lot of time to design and source, those you make it out to be simple have never done it. Another major point is you have no chance with the std ecu forget it, even a unichip will be a comprimise if you spend significant money on the unit then why ruin it with the mangement.

Some type of throttle body arrangement would be bast but the diffculties lie in the 5 cylinders and that individual bodies dont really exist. So unless you get some made, or et 2 pairs and a single this may not happen. Also joining the throttle spindles will be an issue, then the fuel rail or equiv would need to be sorted. Unless they join to the head dirrectly using the oe bolt position, you will need a manifold, or somehow modify the existing one with a flange to mount the bodies on. There is a huge range of throttle bodies, you need to choose some with the correct butterfly diameter prob 40mm, and the short enough length to clear the bulk head. Complicated, perhaps would need a few weeks to sort just that out.

The head, from what I have seen the 20v head has a steep downdraught angle inot the chambers so probably is pretty good out of the box, to improve on would need some development, and testing. Now a number of people have had head work done on the turbo engine but none of it(correct me I im wrong) has been tested to see the actual effect on head flow. So in your head some changes may adversly effect flow and the net gains may be less then the sum of the changes expected. WHat am I saying here - head work is not a formula, and if someone has no development history then the results can be dissapointing. Either way such work should include

Full clean and decarbonise.
Removal of valve guides (this is the only way to get really tidy head work)
Clean up of casting marks.
Blend of port throat into the valve seat.
Blue print of valve seat,
throat cut and chamber cut to bring seat width into spec and aid low-medium lift flow.
Valve reface and back grind for the same reasons.
New guides (why use old ones at this stage)
Head sould be refaced.
Now in te NA the choice has to be made about the rpm the power band will sit, often spinning the engine faster can permit the use of lumpier - longer duration cams allowing a higher power out (gross simplification) the longer duration cams will have been developed to work at a certain rpm and much of their effectiveness rely on port velocity to increase the cylinder filling. But there is a significant financial cost, high rpms are in general bad, and bad for road cars. The increase in wear versus increase in engine speeed is not linear. A high rpm engine will need a rebuild far sooner then its std counterpart. Also in the search for power the low speed tractibilty of the engine will be sacrificed and in road car this is where it spends most of its life. Along with this the components have to match the desired rpm, e.g cam springs - std cam springs should not be used with uprated cams, no arguments, even race springs are not expensive and they will stop the low tension area when resonance sets in. Also pitons and rods will not accept high rpms, and even forged pistons need to be chosen correctly, as the rings they fitted with if too heavy will flutter and break the piston seal at an rpm that can very realistically be in you expected power range this will ruin the effective CR, and torque will rapidly drop off.

Ok, as you may see this is a serious line of work you may be going down. I suggest a few options to you

1. Do nothing (often over looked but in a few years you will be able to afford insurance on a better car, and you may well be bored of your bravo)
2. Try the small mods and maybe a cam, this will costs ome money and no doubt will be dissapointing as there will be numerous comprimises along the way. (if you increase cam lift and do not check piston to valve clearance then you will NEVER know if the piston will colide with the valve destroying the engine).
3. You go all out, plan modifications, reasearch ways to adapt current items for this engine, and generally start becoming your own engineer. Build/have built a high spec unit, design/make the ancillaries, buy a suitible engine management. This is more money then you will guess, and I cant see anypoint unless your car is for racing.

4. The only other thing I suggest is the 2.4 enigine std as a swap.

Hope that helps in some way, if not PM me, no way am I re-reading this post, too lazy sorry,

rich