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Please have a look to the new Borgwarner EFR turbos...
These are the first units since a long time capable to outperform the Garrett units...
Please have a look here:
http://www.full-race.com/articles/borgwarner-efr-turbos.html
The new Garrett GTX units like my new GTX3582R are great and have more maximum flow /power than the older GT-units at the same response, but they still suffer from old stuff on the hot side...
Means, design of their turbine wheels has been unchanged since launch of the GT units…
Really bad is the quality of the turbine housings… Meanwhile I rework every housing regarding clearances from turbine to housing…
Thus I found a housing, which had a clearance of >>1mm from turbine to housing because of cast tolerances. Therefore I had to cut back the housing.
If I would have the choice to test a new unit, I would try the EFR8374 single scroll (with my 5 cylinders), with a 4-cylinder I would test the twin-scroll housing, which promises significant more response…
Unfortunantely a 5-cylinder engine is no adequate unit for a dual scroll turbo.
Juergen

The EFR stuff sounds very good, I'd also like to try one out some time. I agree on the garrett castings, not the best but at least you can upgrade to stainless.

stichl the 7670 any ideas on the type of power a 2.4 would get with the internal gated .83 housing? i am tempted

I agree Borg Warner seem to have made a serious attempt to produce a range of turbos that are designed from the beginning for petrol rather than diesel engine requirements and at the same time a serious challenge to Garrett. They are very expensive though it seems. The other thing that concerns me about them is the compressor maps. The compressors are very efficient but seem to be designed to be used at very high boost as they come into their own at pressure ratios of 3:1 and up. The .83 A/R 7670 or 179351 is a 600BHP turbo, but at 2 bar boost looks to only flow about 550BHP for example.

wish i could read a map! but thats a lot of boost is the 8374 the same?

I haven't looked at that turbo so closely. For my application it will be a bit too slow in getting going.

On a 2.5 litre it would look something like this at 1.6 bar:

http://www.turbodriven.com/performancetu...rsin=92044&

which turbo is that? the 8374? and it would be roughly making those figures at 1.6 bar?..is that the internal gated one?

It's an 8374 with the 0.83 A/R internally wastegated turbine housing. The actual power it will make will depend largely on the volumetric efficiency of your engine and the intercooler efficiency, but the turbo seems a good match for a 2.5 litre engine (too big in my opinion for my 2 litre though).

i would really like to know what mine should be doing

I can't find a compressor map for your turbo - maybe you could contact the manufacturers or suppliers for one, but I have read that the manufacturers don't publish their compressor maps for some reason. Without a compressor map it is pretty hard to tell what the turbo might be capable of - you just have to trust what the manufacturer tells you.

I think it might be based on the T04E 60 trim wheel though. Maps for that are available.

I havent studied them at any length, but I have heard that said about them a number of times on the web.

Have you played with the matchbot yet ?? It's excellent but obviously isnt loaded with garrett maps I wish they would do something similar for the GT range.

Oh yeah, you might find this interesting.

White paper

If you follow the link I posted a couple back, it is to the Matchbot for 2.5 engine - don't know the correct VE or intercooler details for this engine, so the Matchbot gives only a guide - possibly too optimistic for peak power.

Apparently, if your can program in Java, you can adapt Matchbot to do Garrett maps too!

Interesting threads for you regarding this topic:

New EFR7670:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2135597

New Garrett GTX turbos:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2110277

New GTX3582R:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyno-tuning-results/447351-highest-hp-4g63-engine-2007-a-34.html

In my opinion best match for 2,4l are:
GTX3582r or EFR 8374

Best match for 2l engine:
efr 7670 or new GTX3076r

If 560HP are enough, best new match is GTX3071R...

There is a hype meanwhile in US regarding EFR turbos...
but the evidence, that they really are better than new GTX turbos, still is been missing...

But if seems that all other turbo manufacturers cannot compete against these two brandnew turbos any more...

Juergen

Oh you have found it !

The likes of FP and precision turbos have been producing thier own billet "HTA" wheels for years, it is Garrett that needed to keep up !

Yes, it's a good read. I use the "energy conservation" method myself to estimate back pressure. Inputs are boost pressure (Pim), air charge temperature (T1), cylinder size, VE (nvol) and A/F ratio to give mass of air and fuel in cylinder (maf). EGT is from logged data and Tr from published data. Compression ratio, along with engine size, to give Vd & Vc and engine speed (N). Wastegate flow comes from logged wastegate duty cycle data.

I think it gives an approximation good enough to find any real problems - i.e unfavourable pressure gradients in the exhaust.

Must be worth looking at this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/High-Flow-Facherkrumm...=item4aa952464d

The advertiser says "The AR-Racing-manifold has an inner diameter of 34 mm, enough for about 650PS. 34mm diameter are ideal for early response, without loss of final output. Especially suitable for big turbochargers!"

But not for external wastegate?

i mailed them a serious enquiry twice and got no reply so not sure what to make of them

Rob, could you check your pm please.

ok mate will do

funnily enough i have had contact today and they say they do a high flow manifold incorperating pulse technology built to high (german standards) with machines or some such..they are supposed to be exactly equal length..34 or 36 id ..interesting in fact so interesting i asked for one on approval!

The turbo question is quite interesting. The one I used although it was basically a GT3082R it had some key differences (and thus was a hybrid). It had the 4" T04S 0.70a/r compressor housing which means you actually have a reasonable chance of getting all the air in necessary and it had an interesting ported shroud which basically in laymans terms spreads the powerband meaning it spooled up earlier but ran out of puff later. I think a standard GT3082R would've started dropping off at below 7000rpm whereas peak power ended up being at 7700rpm or possibly a couple of hundred rpm higher (with race fuel it was above the 8000rpm limiter). So the turbo was really pretty close to a perfect match for the rev band.
It was an interesting contrast to the GT3582R I tried, because the turbine housing was smaller it was badly mismatched and power started dropping off much earlier. That tells you that in the Garrett turbos for the 2.4/5 to really shine you need at least a 0.83 A/R turbine housing.
It would've also been interesting to see what a GT3076R with a 1.06A/R turbine housing would do, when I originally had my 2.4 set up I used effectively a GT3076R but with a PT compressor wheel but because of the 0.64 turbine housing and internal wastegate the power peaked at a very low rpm - something like standard (5750rpm)

hi john, you are over your pm limit and i want to pm you if wouldn't mind..
do you remember how far you got with a standard manifold or did you never use one?
where did you see full boost? mines very low rpm 3200 which may be an issue,though that may be partially down to restrictive manifold so i am hoping with a good one it will be a little later
do you think you could have seen 600 from your turbo on pump fuel?(staying below 7800rpm) maybe doing things a little differently or do you think you had the most out of it?
i am interested to know what you think

OK not full any more.

I saw full boost higher than that, I got 1 bar at around 3200-3500rpm depending on gear. Obviously depends on what your full boost would be - mine was mapped up to 2 bar but I never used it other than to see what it was like.
I couldn't get 600 from pump fuel because the turbo couldn't do it based on the efficiency map etc. May have got a few more horses with more boost, but I only have the dyno run done at 1.5 bar boost which is the limit I wanted to maximise gearbox life.
I think also for 600 on pump fuel I would've probably been close to needing a 3.5" exhaust I would guess. My external wastegate was plumbed so I could either have a screamer or it go back into the exhaust. I never actually ran it as a screamer as I didn't want to burn up my car on overrun which I used to cool cylinders. Only the brave as they say....

i managed to melt the checker plating on the dyno with my screamer as i have it vented to a few inches above the floor..i was losing nearly 50bhp with it plumbed in..i am going down to barbz over the next couple of days so we can try out a experimental way of getting round my manifold issue, if it doesn't take us far enough i have to find one that will or instruct tigart on what i require and have them build one from scratch to suit the 2.5 though i am hoping they can do it without my imput

KTM you are over you PM limit as well

Not to hijack hence I tried to PM but what setup did you have that cost 50bhp? a plumb back in? but how far from the turbo outlet was the merge point? PM if you prefer

You dont really sound confident that tig art is capable enough to make what you need?

You have given them the input you recieved from the forum members to give them an idea what it should be i assume.

Regards and good luck,

Remco