Hi all.

Just a quick question. Would you all recommend a flea remap? I'm talking the basic £175 one.
I'm currently running a standard car except for a gtec1.

What are the benefits? What are the negatives?

No negatives, all benefits. Have done with my last two coupes and not regretted it

I'd whole heartedly recommend it. More torque & bhp, better responsiveness, faster turbo spool-up and improved fuel economy when off boost - a no-brainer for me; wish I'd had it done sooner

All benefit?? No one has a bad word???
I guess I better book it in. Does he just flash my gtec1 or does he put in a new chip?

Any reliability issues?

Pretty much a prerequisite of owning a coupe. You get a map tailor made for your car and safe optimum performance.

Reliability will never be the same as a standard car. You are always putting extra strain on certain parts. The tuning session itself also is hard on the car. That said I have a good experience with Flea.

snap - i've been home 3 times with the AA from Flea's, but it was pretty much the engine's fault! but there are risks, no doubt. i'd still totally recommend it, just be aware things can go wrong with a less than perfect set-up

Well it's 2.5 hour journey to Bristol, so it's a long journey there and back for me.

Apparently, it's quicker on the way back...

Not if it's on the back of an AA lorry.

The aa and me have a close working relationship.

if the engine is going to go bang it is most likely on the rolling road
this is when the limits of the engine are being pursued and tested

is this true? i know it puts the car under stress but there's less friction than a real road surely? also, don't they "only" run up 6500 revs?

I don't think the rr puts more load on the car than heavy footed driving. Loading is much less as it not actualy dragging 1200kg
The only down side is your pushing the engine past the manufactures specifications both with boost and ignition advance.
That said, all of my cars have driven back better from fleas than when the went, he really is a top guy

I think you may be mistaken there, Sam - the whole point of the RR is to present a resistive load to the torque of the engine, through the front wheels. There's no sideways load, but that's only going to affect suspension - but the thing is running full throttle through the whole rev range and potentially held at points, at times when the mix may not be ideal...

That's the risky point: full throttle and a mixture/timing which you are adjusting. The load is just as much, or more, than heavy footed driving.

Ill gracefully bow out Neil as you have far more experience behind you, as far as I was aware the RR did not load the engine as much hence it being more difficult to map on a RR than on a real road.
Im very happy to be corrected though, i'm still learning.

And then theres BAD RR's, I used one once with insufficient cooling from the fans, (Not the one flea uses btw) and it ended up killing my coop, 2 x melted pistons and a £3k bill in 2005!

So the risks are there - I have not used a RR since, just educated guesses and estimated power I use, Tuning the Cupra R I just went on other specs and real life comparisons etc... saves my nerves!

one of the main points of the rolling road is to simulate engine load and adjust fueling and timing. whilst there is no wind resistance the rollers are not free running and it is obviously these that the load measurements are derived from.

good rolling roads, and there are very few of those that i deem 'good', would carry out an engine health check before attempting to map your car. this is so that you dont have to call the AA and also so that you dont blame the rr operator for 'allowing' a con rod to pop out of the block.

in the car on the road you dont appreciate how harsh the engine is being treated at max rpm. it is a start difference when you stand by the car and it's pulling 6500rpm under load for what seems like too long. your instincts tell you the engine isnt enjoying it.

too much advance or too lean fueling and its time to scrape the melted ally from the cylinders and get your wallet out.

also the rolling road will hold the engine at these high rpms for extended periods of time whilst the tweaking is taking place.

the difficulties in rolling roads are trying to simulate part throttle driving. a very good map will have most map coverage on part throttle areas. in my experience the first few mm of pedal movement require the most granular timing adjustments

part throttle mapping is where the best driveability and effective torque is produced in maps.

one other thing is that the rr will also allow the car to be mapped to its limits, but in a specific environment (humidity, temperature, etc). Where the conditions may allow 'X'bar of boost and a healthy max bhp (aka 'pub talk' bhp) figure this would simply not be safe to use on the road because the environment (temperature) may change and your engine will not be in a controlled 'safe zone' and it is likely to go pop. Perhaps for this reason people think that the road loads an engine harsher...

But in a like for like test, the rolling road is potentially the more effective engine killer.

So its a complete gamble? You can have a car which would last everyday rambling about and the occasional blast for xxxx time. Or potentionally kill it trying to make it 'better'?
The health check bit before sounds good, does this happen?

Ok. Now I'm more confused than ever.
Is it wise to map it or not? Is it a gamble?

It is not only wise imo, but a 'must' for a car that has had significant modifications.

Thing is that if mods have been made you need to know that the fueling is good at all stages. If its too lean you risk det and too rich you risk bore wash. Either scenario and you need a new engine. Bore wash probably poses more of an immediate risk on freshly built engines but can have an effect on 'seasoned' lumps too.

Any modification, even an mere air filter, will change fueling characteristics. Sure, modern maps will compensate to an extent but larger variations in tuning will not allow the standard map to provide the best fueling and timing for the specification.

If you slap a turbo on and other mods the standard map may not allow adequate fueling - you may run lean and risk melted stuff. Ok, there are other considerations such as fuel pressure, pump capacity etc but the map is a significant part of this jigsaw.

Is it a gamble. Good question.

I guess the real answer would always be yes, to the extend that the engine is effectively being 'thrashed' during the rr process.

However, in the hands of a professional it is no more of a gamble than ragging the car on the streets. Actually, in the hands of a professional tuner, it is likely that the engine would be brought up to temperature before letting it come under load - probably more than can be said for lots of owners.

Gamble yes due to the nature of the exercise. But a decent garage wont touch it if it isnt healthy - things to check may include oil pressure, compression, leakdown test, noise, etc...

Worth it yes, every time, as long as it is not carried out by John Wayne but rather by someone who knows what they are doing - and does it (very) well.

Indeed. Have a look at this post: http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1234847#Post1234847

This is what you're doing when you're trying to tweak an engine for which few if any of the parameters are known; if the operator is clumsy or just unlucky, it can kill your engine.

A measurement of power - no tweaks - of an already working engine (e.g. a standard engine for comparison) on a rolling road isn't going to have a significantly greater chance of killing it than booting it to the redline - which is basically dependent on the health of your engine, though it's important to ensure there is sufficient engine cooling.

Working with someone who is familiar with an engine and particularly with any modifications is a good idea; they know where to start and previous experience will suggest the limits.

And as Rudi points out - while the standard maps and the auto adjustments in the ECU can cope with small changes, significant changes require re-mapping.

Most important: if you've changed the flow rate on the injectors or the fuel pressure regulator, then you'll be throwing more fuel in than the system expects. Not specifically an issue except you'll be burning rich by default until/if the auto adjust can correct it, and it may be out of range. That might also leave some throttle-off regimes where it's lean, which will need correcting, so a new map is indicated.

If you've changed turbo, if the new turbo spins up faster, you could find yourself with an excess of air at lower revs which could take the existing maps out of range, or, more significantly, you could be flowing a lot more air at high revs and running lean there... not good. Once again, mapping is indicated.

Blimey, this thread is all doom and gloom!

A remap essentially optimizes the fuelling of a car (which makes a car MORE reliable, no argument) and allows the mappr to increase performance by tweaking things ike ignition advance/timing and boost (on forced induction cars) if desired. I'm sure the mapper could elect to leave these as standard is only reliabilty was required.

A couple of points;
-No rolling accurately simulates resistance on the road. For a start, the car won't have to shift air at 120mph+
-No rolling road really offers proper cooling. Any that claim a 3 foot fan is pushing air to represent the wheel speeds are talking rubbish. A good fan/air con unit does obviously help though and is enough for a few runs.
-Flea maps on the road so, in theory, you get a map more suited for where the car will be used and not on a 'sterile' rolling road.

I think mapping a standard car is a wise decision. You will be sure that the fuelling is optimal (11.5 AFR when on boost) and can moderately improve performance within safe parameters without the need to spend hundreds/thousands on modifications. It also makes the car more fun to drive

Air resistance is completely and utterly immaterial, though you're right about cooling. Total output power is irrespective of the way the load is applied; you're trying to measure output power, not the aerodynamic load. Either way, the engine is delivering power.

Transient response is, to be fair, something which is not well modelled on standard RRs.

I have been 3 times with 3 different coupes and all have been much nicer to drive afterwards with no issues (These have all been Stage 1 with no mods)

Just remember this is only my experience though.

The way i see it, Flea is sorting out the issues with the standard map that have become worse over time, fueling for example, while getting safe amounts of power from the engine.

The car is always smoother to drive after the remap and boosting is more controlled. There is more power, but in a controlled way.

Surely stage 2 remaps and above have more risks involved as more parts have to be upgraded?

Danny

Personally I wouldnt want to load my car at 6k rpm or more for more than a couple of secs (as on the road) particularly with a 50k mile plus mill and unknown history.

Not sure how road mapping is achieved (in safety) - wouldnt you need a test track as full throttle in a higher gear will have different timing and fuelling requirements than a quick blatt in second?

Had a precious car of mine RRd and I wont forget the sound and the red hot carbon deposits shooting out exhaust (even though I restricted max rpm to 6k)- not for the timid and anxious (err, me!)

Dont good mapping set-ups auto calibrate base fuelling and timing, real time within safe parameters as engine goes through gears, leaving only performance fine tuning to technician / tuner? - Presumably you tell s/w of any fundamental upgrades to engine (previously stored from other tests) eg differing injector flow rates (assuming pump and regulator have of course been matched during fitting!)then the MAF should put any greater airflow from any breathing / turbo mods into the mix to determine the BMEF (?!)- A faster spooling turbo shouldnt bother this fundamental analysis should it? - Surely the MAF will feed back the airflow at any moment in time, and the fuelling can be calculated by the s/w, given correct flow rate data and pulse feedback?

I am no engineer (before I get jumped on by those in the know!) - just my thinking...

ie once the engine is found to be sound and tunable, shouldnt all the engine sensors, combined with the engine specific mapping s/w (duly re-calibrated for any fuel flow changes)keep the engine safe on the fly? - Any manual tweeks, such as more aggressive timing and leaner mix chasing peak power the tuner feels appropriate would no doubt be highlighted on screen, real time, indicating the level of deviation / risk?

Ie if the engine is tested to be strong initially, fed appropriate fuel(even this should be picked up by knock sensor / temp etc) and kept at appropriate temperature then good mapping sw, especially engine specific managed by an experienced engineer should, in theory be fine...

A wise precaution would be to limit the max rpm and time spent at very high rpm to a minimum, as you would on the road (race driving and tuning is a whole different ball game - a wise man wouldnt start with a near 100k mile engine and thrash it on the track so custom builds are intended for extreme usage..)-

I wouldnt make a habit of using the last 500rpm on a leggy engine, even when going thro gears on the road (second and third gear, occasionally if I am confident with engine condition) - First gear runs the risk of inertia over revving engine and top gears, simply puts significantly higher loads on all components for too long (takes a while to go through top 1k rpm in upper gears.)

Ok, thats enough from an armchair amateur, Flea et al, please come in and tell us about the real-time adapting s/w that keeps things in check and if they can be pre calibrated with non std variables such as 30% higher injector flow...

Love the debate. Interesting to hear how most people rate flea, but still has reservations.
All in all, I think I might wait a while.

Do you want to swap you're Lefty for a righty ?

Wouldn't mind. although I do like a left hooker.

Best thing to do if you go to see Leighton, is give him the keys and forget about it.

UNLESS something untoward happens, you will be very pleased when you go to pick the car back up.

I should know about untoward things happening whilst having the Flea treatment - my alternator belt derailed, luckily only munching itself and the pulley, instead of the venturing into the cambelt.

You could hardly lay the blame on Leighton - for all i know it could have done the same thing on the drive down - or on the way home.

Yes, ok, its a fair point as others have posted, mapping a car does put it under some heavy loads, but I doubt MUCH more than giving it a damn good thrashing yourself.

Chances of a failure in Leightons hands - small but there I suppose, but as above, equal to the chance of a failure on the way down there.

I took my 20VT to Leighton, not really aiming for a number, or HUGE bhp, more for him to iron out the hotch potch of mods that the previous owner had fitted, and get it running smoother through the rev range, and thats exactly what i got.

Bang for buck, its the best 'mod' you can buy for a Coupe.

Couldn't agree more, particularly with the first and last bits. Yes the engine will be pushed hard for short bursts during the stage 1 process but it is just that - short bursts and if your engine can't take that, especially in Leighton's very experienced hands you've got problems even before you head to his place! I'm pretty sure Fiat intended the Coupé's engine to be thrashed on occasions. If your Coupé is in good health, has enjoyed regular servicing with quality filters & fluids and the belts are well within their lifespan you've got little if anything to worry about. The benefits will have you grinning all the way home

it's probably better the engine goes bang on a RR than at 70+ leptons on a road when your engine seizes up & throws you into a world of lovely pain !

Flea all the way....

I will add a some more later regarding the dyno, as it requires a little more than a cursory answer. In short, as I alluded to on another thread, tuning will always require careful attention. It would be remiss of me (or any other tuner) if I didn't explore the upper limits of an engines potential, that is simply what I am being paid to do. However, the key is to do this in a controlled and understood environment, so that you are aware of what is happening at all times and how to deal with it. A generic chip has greater risk because there are unknowns, conversely a custom chip should evaluate all parameters and therefore quench the variables significantly . Method and knowledge are key. It is all too easy to say I can "tune", I can "live map", but this needs to be quantified with real experience and knowledge beyond the very simple basics. Mclaren and Virgin are both F1 cars, but well we all know the difference...

I have yet to have a single car fail as a result of tuning. By this I mean tuning related activities, and I can categorically say the engine is not compromised in any way beyond the requirement to unleash this potential. I would honestly go as far to say that when an engine is setup correctly it will repay you in kind. I have tuned many cars that defy the usual retoric, the standard engine is far more robust than the general consensus would have you know. In an ideal world every car would arrive in perfect health, but they don't and it doesn't take me long to pick up on some nasties. Tuning is not always about fun, it can quickly reveal things that are not up to scratch. I do get the odd occasional perfect car , and it is a pleasure to hand it back and say so, but invariably I am not just tackling the ECU!

As for the dyno, well this discussion is a little gem

In English,

Flea:-
I am the best,no one is as good as me,my hair is long and im not as good as Jbt around the tracks of the Uk,.


Seriously though,live mapping is worth every penny if you want economy,performance but more importantly peace of mind knowing that you can have some fun and be confident that everything is ok.

So kind of you to refer to my Plus

He definetly wasnt refering to mine! Bloody thing.

Flea,
I never meant to question your expertise and I hope you didn't see it that way.
Just wish you did the occasional London trip. Bristol is a long trek for me.

You are joking right? I used to commute to London 3 days a week, and travel to Brighton regularly with a 5 and 6 year old in tow in the coop! Do it, and enjoy the drive home, it'll be quicker and not just in the mind!

And yep, I'm in Bristol

Spoken like a true Londoner A whopping 120 miles or two hours!

It must be such a struggle to even get up in the morning you poor thing.

Haha....actually my coupe does some miles.....I travel for my job and do aprox 700-800 miles per week. Last week I did 400 miles in one day!!
So forgive me, but a 240 mile return trip on a weekend is harsh on me. :-)

Oi oi, enough with the Londoner thing.

Not all of us live in the sticks where the only thing we have to do is drive up and down country lanes and look after the sheep.

errr.. last time i saw him he had a serious mullet chop!!!

Don't rise to it. Bad enough our economy has to subsidise them, but they insult us to boot!

What like mine?

took my car to Flea to get mapped last week and am very happy with the results. Its pretty much standard bar powerflow exhaust and slightly uprated hybrid turbo.

Beforehand asked Barbz to give it a check over to make sure all in good health (compression/leak test done to make sure the engine was strong), he identified a cracked intake pipe and stretched accelerator cable so got that sorted first. Sorting those things made a big difference on their own.

Made the trip over to Bristol (from London), handed over the car, had a nice day in Bristol then picked the car up about 4hrs later. Was very pleased with the results, the car is noticeably quicker, very smooth and feels great to drive. Leighton was great to deal with and knows his coupes. I felt I had left my car in good hands.

Downsides? Well my brakes now squeal more they they used to, my fuel costs have gone up (because I want to drive the car more), and I now have the bug and am thinking I now want a different hybrid and a FMIC for above 300bhp ;-)

All in all well worth the money.

Don't be silly, no one Can have a hair cut that makes them look super

I think it was just a short back and sides!!

Sheeps need some lovin too you know

But seriously, i drove from Norfolk to Bristol to see Leighton, just get up nice and early and you'll be there in under 2 hours easy.

I left mine at 4am, and was at Reading services by 6 (speed limit all the way)

I travelled to Flea's from France. A custom map and chip was done.That was done nearly 18 months ago. I have to say my coupe does not miss a beat and goes like rocket. An nice untouched 20vt does make things uncomplicated though.