You do realise that of the few exports we have these days many go outside of Europe too? And those countries don't expect us to be dry-bummed for the honour of selling them our wares.

Yes, i am very aware. i also know the proportion of our exports that go to the eu.

And why do you think that will stop if we decide we'd rather not line the EU's pockets to pay for their meddling in our affairs, constructing bureaucracy to justify it's existence and in recent times getting far too big for it's boots?

It was meant to be a trade agreement giving marginal import/export tax benefits to member countries, not a protectionist racket whereby you can only sell into it if you're prepared to pay a heavy levy to subsidise the gravy train they all like to ride.

What it started as isn't really relevant, we are were we are and have to deal.with it.

Having totally alienated the eu and the member states, why do you going that we will be welcomed as merely a trading partner?

You could probably assume that any non eu based companies that set up here for a European base will pack up and leave too.

I say bring back the death penalty!

And there's nothing in giving up sovereignty that means you have to give up your pride. Are Texans not proud of Texas, for example?



You have a vast amount in common with them; you want an economy that provides you with a job, you want a stable currency, you want good schools, good health care, the rule of law, a future with prospects. That's what a union is about.



'Britishness' is an illusion. It's a yearning for halcyon days that weren't all that lovely at all. You're trying to get back to a past that never existed, at the cost of sacrificing Britain's future.

I've always opposed the death penalty, but I am starting to see the advantage of it in your particular case.

An unfortunate choice of example Andrew. If you've ever been to Texas you'll know that Texans are fiercely proud of being Texans. Being American comes a poor second to them.

Oh well that's alright then. All hail Führer Merkel, Reichsleiter Van Rumpouy and Obergruppenführer Sarkozy.

Trouble is there are far too many EU countries now trying to agree on all and sundry that the time, trouble, effort and cost of it all has become unsustainable, compared with USA who only has to agree with itself, and in the days of the Soviet Union, every Republic had to agree with Moscow or else o

If Greece left the EU with an affordable debt, maybe she would survive and prosper better - with tourism, ancient history, food industries as productive infrastructure and potential to draw investors.

-and how come Italy is in trouble - it has what Greece has, including Fiat, Ferrari, and fine cuisine ( tiramisu)

And with the comparison of the eu to Nazi Germany, your level of debate is made crystal clear.

I'm out.

But to achieve that, they don't need to leave the EU, but they need to leave the Euro, default on the debt, and comrades back with a devalued new drachma.

I made the reference much earlier that the EU is removing heads of sovereign nations at will and enforcing it's own agenda across the continent in a dictatorial style with a view to creating a Fourth Reich. I genuinely believe that Europe is already on a slippery slope to WWIII and it's being orchestrated by the characters above.

The debate never got started as you've yet to make a qualified rebuttal of anything I've said. "You're wrong, Europe is lovely, the EU means you no harm, and we've got to be in it as it's a mess already" just doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

No, the thread is regarding the position taken by Cameron, not a generic one about the EU.

I agree that it was wrong to insist on the removal of national governments, as that's a matter for the electorate. That is a.million miles from your assertion that we are heading for the Fourth Reich.

Van Rumpuoy wants control of national budgets, to be able to remove heads of state at will, to enforce laws not passed by sovereign governments, the ability to enforce sanctions on any nation that doesn't comply, but don't worry it's all for the greater good of Europe.

Hitler only wanted the Sudetenland so we let him have it, you know, for the greater good of Europe.

The problems for Cameron started two years ago when he turned his back on the EPP and joined up with peripheral rightwing nutjobs.

If he'd 'grown some balls' back then and stood up to the rightwingers in his own party, he could have influenced a side agreement to the UK's advantage and none of this would be even be happening.

Idiot.

He would never have been able to come to a side agreement benefitting us. Germany and France don't give a crap about what we do. Right now the only circumstances in which they'd be interested is if it looked like we might join the single currency so they could help themselves to what's left in our meagre coffers to try to prop it up.

Well well well, gentlemen, it seems the forum needs some input from its resident God.

Fear not, Lord Shiny is always present and watching over his flock.

First things first - Brewster, you are on epic form sir.

I must confess to not fully understanding the whole EU scenario, and lets face it, if the politicians ever told the truth, they would admit the same.

Alas I was not even born when the 'common market' idea was first dreamt up, nor old enough to participate in any of the more recent votes on various incarnations of the initial concept.

However, frankly, it doesnt take a genius to see that what we have now is so far removed from the original plan its laughable.

A continous catalogue of failures that really, regardless of whether you believe its a good thing or not, should have been binned years ago, and only remembered as what happens when you give a bunch of morons too much money and too much power.

When the world is confronted with a COUNTRY going bankrupt, (i.e Italy, Greece) 99% due to its involvement in the EU, its really not difficult to see that you cannot take the many countries scattered across Europe, all with vastly different econmies, and wealth, and merge them into a single currency, single economy bloc, and expect it to work.

It cant work.

Trying to make everyone have the same, and everyone follow one set of rules etc is called communism, and that really doesnt work.

Just ask the Soviets.

Now, you all know my hatred for the EU, in my view nothing more than a biblical waste of taxpayers money, that gets us absolutely nothing except ball ache.

However, IF, and I must stress the word if, someone or something can prove to me that our continued involvement with the EU will make my life, or yours better in any way, I may be open to change.

But, as far as I can see it just plain wont.

The press and the politicians tell us that if we pull out of the EU, our trade and manufacturing industry will suffer.

Ok, well this country makes next to nothing anymore anyway, and even if we were not part of the EU, the people who buy our products would still buy them regardless.

They also tell us that we have trillions of pounds owed to us by EU banks.

Ok, so how would that change if were not part of the EU?

They would still owe us the money surely?

They also tell us that if we pull out, our economy will collapse and we will suffer a recession/depression.

Interesting... I was under the impression we were currently suffering the worst recession since records began.

So lets say we pull out, for a start we would save the reported £40 million a DAY we piss away into the EU, and maybe, just maybe, we could give all the Police men and women their jobs back, build houses, hospitals, schools, prisons, parks, playgrounds, see a cut in income tax (or any bloody tax for that matter), fix the potholed roads, build factories and industry again, get the country back to how great it once was.

We could make our own laws, have our own justice system, fish our own waters, farm the way we want/need to, HGV's could drive at a sensible speed determined by us, we could work as many hours as we wanted, live our lives the way WE want to, not the way Brussels wants us to.

We would also not be expected to piss away MORE trillions of pounds to try and prop up the ever sinking ship that is the EU and the single currency euro zone.

Sounds good to me so far, I dont know about you.

Presumably, we could also expect to see the vast numbers of eastern european factory workers, fruit pickers, cleaners, rapists, theives, gypsies, dole srcoungers etc being told to piss off back where they came from as the UK is no longer the safe haven promise land and you are no longer welcome, so on yer effing bike.

This would obviously free up jobs for British workers, houses for British citizens, and indeed dole money for the British citizens who just dont feel like working bless em.

Still sounding pretty good to me.

However, there is a problem... this would need to be decided by the general public, in a referendum, something that the general public has been crying out for, for decades, but constantly ignored by its respective governments.

Why you might think? Simple, money.

Succesive governments all know how much cash is involved in us being involved in the EU, for them.

I emphasise the word them, not you, or me.

Political parties act in their best interests, 100% of the time, 0% of the time do they act in the general publics best interests.

Look at Cameron's actions in the last 48 hours, he veto'd the deal, because the deal would have seen money and power taken away from the City of London... and where does the Tory party get over 50% of its funding from?

Yup, you guessed it, the City of London.

No brainer then really.

And of course, with the Conservatives at the helm, they wouldnt want to implement the proposed EU corporation tax and take more money off their City friends now would they?

You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.

And of course, lest we forget, that any time talk of a referendum on the EU is raised, we are confronted with reminders that say Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats dont want a referendum, and are very pro European...

Y'know what? F*** the Liberal Democrats.

Nothing is more terrifying than seeing such a delusional party so close to the helm of my country, the sodding green party would probably have better ideas than those bunch of muppets.

Actually, scratch that, there is something more terrifying - Great Britain's continued involvement in the stinking quagmire that is the EU.

Politicians say we will be lost without the EU?

Utter bullshit.

We conquered the f****** world from our tiny little island, without help from the Germans or Lithuanians, and we can bloody well survive without them now.

THE REVOLUTION IS COMING PEOPLE...

Yes, and the point I was trying to prove was that not having sovereignty doesn't mean giving up national pride. Texans are proud of Texas, but they don't suggest that there should be a president of Texas, or a Texas dollar, or passport control for those entering Texas from elsewhere in America, do they?

So, it was a fine example, you just misunderstood the point.

You were right I did misunderstand your point. However back to my point, you've not been to Texas then Andrew?

So you won't be coming to the particular part of the quagmire that is SpaItalia then Matt?

So I'll write your refund cheque right now.

No, which is strange, really as the only American friend I have lives in Texas.

Is it worth a visit?

Nah you've lost me there Pete.

There is nothing wrong with European countries, nor their motoring events.

Ah, Brewster, I see your minion has arrived.

Absolutely. Texans are fanatically proud of Texas, which could be tiring, but somehow isn't. There appears to be a genuine belief that the Lone Star State is the only state of any consequence. They are also very Conservative.

They can be incredibly insular, but that is an American failing in general. They are also gracious and generous hosts. I'd go again, I should I've got a standing invite I've not taken up.

I'm assuming the "other arrangements" SS is arranging is the hotel cloud cuckoo land

I was going to argue your rabid nationalism point by point, but to be honest I just can't be bothered. So I left the only salient point you made to describe your post.

Well you could say that the American (Western) system of free market capitalism has failed too? I am not for one minute saying that communism is the answer but that is not what is on offer from Europe, is it?.

Then again the Chinese seem to have made their version of communist capitalism work. They currently hold much of the world debt (the americans are very aware of this!) and are now the most cash rich nation in the world.




That is just not true, the UK has a HUGE export market. We attract foreign investment for manufacture specifically because we are part of the EU. If we exit then there would be nothing to stop Europe making it difficult for us to trade. Policies of protectionism could become part of the EU solution, where would that leave Britain?




Matt, read your history books again. Britain did pay soldiers from other nations to fight under the flag

Britain did have an empire, but just what was the Britain of those times like? Perhaps we should bring back the exploitation of population for financial gain? Let us end all employment rights, bring back the work houses, disolve all social welfare systems, allow child labour and see a return to the massive mortality rates. You might not like the liberals but they were the ONLY political party, before Labour and others were formed, to seek an end to such practices.

With China now the leading economic power it would seem exploitation of the population is the key to world domination.

It's funny to see the microscopic level of thought some people put in their posts. Get those filthy Europeans out of our country that are doing nothing but clean our toilets! So... we can have real Brits to clean our own toilets? Now there's progress! I mean... thinking on the same level as some above...

I personally don't care too much for the political Europe at the moment. Quite some countries have been 'saving up' to reach the 'requirements'. And once accepted they can't keep it up. Unfortunate for them, and yes it currently drags Europe down. But indeed to play in the worldwide economic theatre with the 2 puppet masters that are currently on there, to become puppet masters ourselves and not puppets, it is almost a must to join forces. I personally think that Brittain did a lousy job protecting their future some 10 years ago, not because they would fare well in Europe, but because in fact they would be a key player in the whole setup. Those times are over unfortunately. Brittain has gone from 'expensive' to 'cheap'. With a better vision I'm sure they would have protected the economy succesfully and prevented the situation we all find ourselves in.

USA? The USA isn't known for historic consistence and surely everything changes every 4 years, so don't expect to rely on 'remember the days'.

Yups, Europe is in a terrible state. Mainly because of political unrest, misaligned economics and a too many rose tinted glasses without real backup plans. What about the bullshit of fines when you don't reach certain goals? Surely if a country doesn't reach a goal it should be supported rarher than fined? Aligning legislation on paper takes ages, so what do you expect from practical abstract economies?

Ayway, just saying: it took far too long already, the problems we are seeing is a consequence of that, and indeed those countries that are always 'in doubt' should decide: yes or no. Then at least we can move forward.

real brits: * wont clean toilets / cant clean toilets / dont want to clean toilets

(* delete as appropriate)