don't forget to add the option: real brits make such a mess in the toilets it's no surprise nobody wants to clean them

I clean toilets and am not ashamed of it either.

The pay is ok, due to working in the evenings, it's a secure job and I have no hassles or stress

I couldn't care less what job I do, as long as it brings in the money and as prostitution wasn't paying much due to me putting on weight, I now have a more reliable source of income

You've been working the wrong corners, T

I did look into the more specialist areas, but got the cleaning job instead

But they are not the worst by a long way. The Spanish have a lot to answer for.

Theresa - I'm glad, and relieved (ahem), to see that you are not even thinking about joining in with the erudite economic debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU

I give you the 2011 winner of the "Stating the bleedin' obvious" award

What I would like to see from those who want out of the EU is some costing of the cost / benefit rather than blaming johnny foreigner for being the cause of all our own problems. From what I see we have done pretty well out of the Euro.

As I see it there are quite a few MP's who would love to be proved right just so that they bang on for the next 20 years how they (correctly with hingsight) predicted the fall of the EU. They wouldn't be affected by the fallout of any experiment to the leave the EU (that would be shared amongst the lower/middle class) but they could carry on pushing their own xenophobic agenda.

I'm not educated enough on the topic to make an informed opinion on my stance, as such im going to shut the hell up and perhaps do some reading.

+1

Without getting into the politics of it all I don't think a common Europe would ever work as there are too many cultural differences between so many countries. After all we've spent hundreds of years fighting each other to define our boundaries and protect our cultures.

The only way it would work IMO is if there was one central seat of government and policy and each country gave up their right to an individual culture & language perhaps speaking Newspeak and eating soylent green. After all those Germans wont want to be pricking about with Tapas and spaghetti.

As for Britain I think we'd get along fine without being part of the European Union. From a non political perspective I've never felt anything in common with any European country. I've visited most and I love most of them too but it is the differences that are exiting. As a people I think we have much more in common with Americans.

Morning worshippers. Let us pray...



You could, and indeed I would.

America has many financial problems, one of which being a 9 year, $1 Trillion war in Iraq...



Yeah, fair points there Bob - but surely IF we were to stand alone, and implement our own trade policies, tax brackets, and business regulations etc, foreign investment in our country would still remain strong.

The EU will inevitably fail sooner or later anyway, so a country that has set itself up ready for the fall out can only be a smart move in my opinion.

Im curious to know, how the EU, can impliment policies that would be harmful to UK interests, if we were not a part of it?

Sure, the EU could set up various schemes to try and lure business to The United States of Germany, BUT, if we were freely allowed to compete with them for the business investment, its a win win all round for the UK.

As for our own import/export(s), surely again, if we stood alone, we could make our own tax rates for this, and be competitive with the EU, or indeed undercut them, to get the trade back to the UK.

Where as my first comment was a little over the top, the UK has a paltry manufacturing industry compared to say 30-40 years ago... round about the same time this all started.

Funny that.

But then, I'm sure it was all Mrs Thatchers fault hey?



C'mon Bob, that one really let your post down, as its really only a statement to argue with me, not a valid point.

Obviously, I was referring to the claims that the UK will fail spectactularly if we pull out of the EU, not debating if soldiers from other countries helped forge the British Empire.

That they might have, but for OUR benefit, and under OUR control.



Here is the thing, IF the UK stopped aiming for world domination, and focussed on its own land, we wouldnt be in the mess we are in today.

Despite my admiration for the Empire, that was an awfully long time ago, and frankly nothing similar will ever happen today.

America could do with taking the same approach to its foreign policy.

Isn't it ironic - take a country such as Canada, or Australia... both have vast populations, both have good import/export industries, both have an NHS style free medical care system, both have very strict immigration rules, and both are not bankrupt, not at war with anyone, never been attacked by muslim terrorists, and best of all, neither has signed up to be a 'member' of any dimwitted club such as the EU.

Maybe, just maybe, if the UK followed suit, and stopped meddling in other peoples affairs, massively tightened immigration rules, deported hundreds of thousands back to their homelands, pulled out of the ever sinking ship that is the EU, and put itself, and its citizens FIRST, we would all be alot better off.

Food for thought no?

Thankyou, where can I collect my award from?

Thing is srm6 - you went to the trouble of insulting me, but offered no explanation as to how you know better.

I'm sure you have a vast intellectual knowledge of the EU, so why dont you share it with the rest of us?

Britain needs to stop blaming everyone else for its failings an take a look at the way it has behaved.

Britain did used to have a huge industrial and manufacturing base and we were often near the front when it came to technological innovation. Instead of supporting and developing such business however our governments decided to take the path to easy riches. The yellow brick road that led to the Financial Services industry. This route offered quick riches and huge short term growth. We lapped it up whilst at the same time laughing at our struggling neighbours in the EU.

The route relied upon urging our big businesses into floaton on the stock exchange. Why bother invesing in you products when you can get huge quick wins and be rich beyond your wildest dreams...

We floated our national services (Gas, telephones, Electricity, National grid, UK Airports and many more)and used the money made to offer tax breaks and the city made billions.

Once floated business had to meet the needs of shareholders rather than the needs of business. So often without any real improvements in service the costs began to rise, the investment in infrastructure fell off, staff levels were reduced and the business sought to sell off any elements of the asset they could. This short term approach is called bleeding the asset.

This ultimately resulted in many UK owned businesses, with huge world wide brand names, being too weak to fend off often foreign take over bids. The shareholders were offered deals that brought instant rewards so they obviously opted to sell, nobody was in this for the long term.

It even happened in the finacial services industry. Businesses that had been formed as mutuals (Building societies) offered their members a quick cash win and most of them accepted it with open arm, only to discover that the benefits they previously enjoyed from their non proffit mutuals dissapeared (Short term win long term loss!!).

Another element that was required for financial services success was to get as many UK households as possible to get into debt. So buying a house was seen as a "Must Do" and relaxation of credit rules allowed people to borrow more than they could really afford! Greed was good and the UK population lapped it up. Hence we are where we are today!

If the UK was to opt out of all EU integration and go it alone as a nation just what are the strong brands and businesses that are going to bring us prosperity? Many of the big UK brands may still be made in the UK but they are not now UK owned. There is nothing to stop the brand owners deciding to manufacture their products in their home nation or even cheaper places.

If the UK were to pull out of the EU we would have to make ourselves ultra competetive to make us viable. The only way this would be possible would be by de-regulation. People really, and I mean REALLY, need to understand exactly what this term means before they wish it upon us....

If Britain was strong and had a huge portfolio of big business and big brand names that the world wanted to buy then yes perhaps we could go it alone. The trouble is we don't. Those who foster imperialistic british views really need to wake up and realise it has gone. I am not sure when it started but sometime after WW2 we Brits decided that short term greed far outweighed any long term vision. Our Germanic neighbours may have not had our huge growth -in 80's and 90's but what growth they did have was reinvested. This is perhaps why when our Prime minister was glowing at sighning a £1 Billion trade deal with China the Germans sighned an £8 Billion deal the following day!

So your solution to attracting business is to make them pay less. So... you want more money by making people pay less.

Sounds like an excellent idea.

And you're comparing the UK with country slash continents like Canada and Australia, both of which have vast natural resources and are twenty to fifty times the size of the UK with less than half the population. Go on and compare cost of life, debt,... Your whole idea about economics is quite messed up - unless if you want to become a third world country?

Economic union is a good thing, if implemented correctly. Monetary union is something completely different. Personally, I think the Euro is very positive for some countries and very negative for others. Unfortunately it seems the ones for whom it is negative are trying the most to join it, seemingly just to get economic protection. And then there's government vs. people, who each have their own ways of getting the best out of the system.

Anyway, remember 7 years ago, the GBP was Euro x 1.8. Now it's Euro x 1.2 (well at least it was yesterday). But generally, prices are still the same (you didn't have the Euro to 'allow' for some 'illegal' hidden price hikes). Which is another thing that might be the downfall of your economic ideas. In order to compensate the VAT, some big suppliers are taking a hit by lowering prices for goods. This is good for national stuff. When I buy in the UK, that's win + win: devaluation + I pay the tax in Belgium so fully benefit from the compensation.

But go ahead, lower taxer for foreign companies that you don't actually want to colaborate with. I'm sure you'll go to meet some serious suffering, ref. Dexia, BNP Paribas,... or will see you become just a money-moving country that houses European HQ's for international firms that officially make no money.

Canada, population <35M
Australia, population <23M

So the "vast" population of these two countries combined is less than the UK population.

You really, really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

With a topic as complex as this, I never trust anyone who is fiercely in one camp or the other because they are usually (though not always) guilty of seriously over-estimating their own knowledge.

To quote Bertrand Russell: "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

In response to Bob's post... We've seen some serious trouble in the banking industry, and I'm pretty sure the worst is yet to come. In order to protect 'the people' you know what the 'accepted' solution is? The government to buy the bank. I might be able to find a few pitfalls there, especially at this period on time. Results? You pay your own interest on the money, the bank has bought a company that is actually losing money, no longer has the protection of its larger international mother,... Might have been cheaper to just let it die and pay the savers their money + interest and get the loaners a government loan. Adding insult to injury, in order to keep the existing Big Customers they get tax free deals.

Another fancy idea: sell and lease back. Rather than maintaining government buildings that are government property, these are sold to private companies / investors / banks (ooh!) who lease them back to the government. Ahaa, so while the maintenance was in fact tax-free, we now have buildings that are being maintained privately (add profit, worse deals on maintenance pricing,...). Estimated: in 12 years time the deal will strike a break-even point for the government, and then will become more expensive.

I don't claim to know anything about economics on extremely large scale, but I can see the results of it. It all smells like 'hoping for the best' and not adding 'but preparing for the worst' like we're all told we should in chaotic times like these where stability is not on the cards for a while yet, especially with the ripple effects of international economy (which is a given, not a result of 'the euro').

Fair enough, both countries have smaller populations, but still, they are in a far better financial state than the UK.

In comparison -

Greece, population <12M Bankrupt.
Italy, population <61M Bankrupt.

I wouldnt argue that a smaller population should mean a cheaper cost to the respective government, but surely its how the government of any country spends its money that effects said population.



Quite.

But that said, should the UK really be relying on the EU to get it out of the current financial crisis?

Or indeed have a vague belief that it can?

Where will it end?

What happens if we put all our eggs in the EU basket, and then it DOES go down the pan?




Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is this not what happens every single hour, of every single day in the world of business?

Undercut your rivals to get the business.

Then, once you have captured the bulk of the market, suffering the cut will bring you the profit.



That is true Bob, no doubt, and a move which would need careful consideration.



No, we dont.

Mainly because everything we had, was sold off, or outsourced to other countries who pay less in wages, infrastructure is cheaper, tax is cheaper etc etc.

Worth a look, if you like that sort of thing...

So... you proved yourself wrong.

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

Hasn't this all got interesting. Sovereign states being overruled by unelected heads of international banks. Germany dictating upon the forced removal of savings from members of the public in foreign countries. Russia freezing German assets in retaliation.

Cyprus is now a dead duck with no financial sector that provided 70% GDP. They can't devalue their own currency to make farming exports cheap and tourism popular there again. They're being forced to suckle at the teat of the corrupt heads of the EU while being made to live in poverty for the foreseeable future.

How long before a run on banks in PIIGS? I still maintain that Europe is on course for all out war in the next decade. The gravy train is ploughing straight into oblivion at the expense of millions of ordinary people across the EU, but whilst they can manage to keep it on the rails the corrupt political class will do everything they can to protect their feathered nests.

OMG, it must be old as SHiny Shoes was on a rant It does seem that you no longer have to go to the expense of creating well armed forces in order to control another country, just do it from behind a tellers window instead, far more civilised.

On a side note 2014 see the restrictions on Romania and Bulgaria lifted so expect another massive imigration surge. Far from creating a more united Europe the free boder crossing enjoyed by all now seems to be fueling the far right again It will end in tears I fear.

It's OK. The 1,000,000 unemployed young people in the country have nothing to worry about. We'll probably just get 50,000 unskilled Bulgarians and Romanians like we were promised by Tony Bliar with the Polish...

50,000 is the goverment figure for a year, although many think that will be a monthly figure. Much scare mongering is going on with sensational tabloid headlines. However other changes are happeing in 2014 too which make France and Germany a more likely destination.

What I do find different in the last 20 years is the number of people living emigrating to countries only to live there and openly declare that they hate the place, the customs and the laws. Why move then ?

And at what point does the world in general wake up and realise that banking is *not* a wealth producing industry, and merely a wealth *moving* industry?

At what point to people realise that the only thing permitting governments to tax them is force of arms?

At what point do governments wake up and formally note the difference between a bank depositor (aka customer) and the share/rights/bond holders - the ones who should have their money at risk?

And no, I'm not going to mention the risks of spending more than you earn...