Proccy a liberal...

Two brothers convicted of child prostitution and will be sentenced in october . Its not been covered by the media i was listening to Nick Ferrari this morning and he went into some detail of the case and i was shocked by the action of these two guys http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-19181714

Ahdel and Mubarek you say?....

Your point?

The same one I made in the last topic we had about this.

Ah, I don't recall the conversation, but would I be too far wrong in suspecting that you're hinting that the actions of two people who happen to be of a particular race/religion/social grouping imply that they are representative of the whole?

If you are, might I remind you (a) of the forum rules, and (b) the logical fallacies implicit in that deduction?

You would indeed be too far wrong. I am explicitly aware of the forum rules, having been here almost as long as you, Neil, and ordained to Mod status at the same time.

I am not, in the slightest suggesting that these two are representative of their race/creed/colour/religion. The group they are representative of is that of men who are grooming white, working class, vunerable girls for prostitution and acts of paedophilia. This is a problem which is scant reported, but seems to be very much on the increase according to the information that is available if you look for it. That group seems almost entirely populated by men of a Pakistani origin. It may be an unfortunate fact, but it's a fact nonetheless.

It is a sad indictment on Asian communities that these acts are often swept under the carpet. The real shame is that in the name of racial harmony the rest of British society seems to want to do the same. Refusing to acknowledge a link between the ideological and national origin of those perpetrating these disgusting crimes will not help racial harmony, the poor victims, or prevent future occurances.

You contend that these sort of acts are more common in Asian communities, but nobody knows the true scale of sex-slavery in this country, all we can base judgements on is how many people are caught and convicted.

So an equally valid hypothesis would be that the Asian community is closer and more honest than the indigenous white community, thereby increasing the chances that somebody within that community will be caught.

Why assume one or the other without any evidence?

Your leading question will not stand any ground. Given the percentages of population of the different groups we can come to one of two conclusions. Either the 85+% of the population that are caucasians are all keeping secrets about other British caucasians running these kind of gangs as I haven't seen any of these kind of convictions amongst this demograph, or it is a problem entirely of men from a demograph that makes up less than 4% of the population.

It doesn't matter how it is dressed up. These gangs are all of men of a Pakistani background and it is not a problem that is going to go away without a strong acknowledgement of this and targetting it directly, frankly and forcefully. Pretending it's just nasty men and it is of no relevance where they're from or why they hold these views is not only allowing it to continue, but tantamount to encouraging it.

So is that how they were caught?

@Enforcer - I don't know how they were caught, I was merely offering an alternative hypothesis.

@Brewster - even if we were to make an assumption that *all* sex-slavery in the UK was the work of Pakistani men how would that help catch anybody? If that community is 4% of the population (and I can't be bothered to Google it), and if only the men are to blame then that would still be 1.5 million doors to kick in to check for under age prostitutes. Do you see that as a fruitful venture?

<sigh> I haven't advocated that we start smashing back doors in. These blokes seem more than capable already. What I am suggesting is that if it could be openly acknowledged that it is a problem of a specific community then maybe they'll be more recptive to the ideas that it is neither acceptable nor a matter to have a blind eye turned to.

So you don't have any way of weighing up the possibilities. You need more information.

Speaking as a market researcher I can assure you that any survey where question 1 is, "Do you operate a string of under-age prostitutes?", is likely to have a very low incidence rate.

Brewster, I still don't see what you're achieving. I imagine that most members of the Pakistani community understand perfectly well that it's both illegal and immoral to force anybody, especially those under the age of consent, into prostitution. Telling them, "This is your problem", is unlikely to improve race relations.

But if it wasn't taboo for collective society to point the finger then maybe they'll be spurred into fixing it. Hell, maybe society as a whole may be spurred into fixing it.

As it stands it appears that most people don't want to be tarred as racist for doing so and think that these girls are troubled anyway so it doesn't really matter. The liberal suggestion that we just leave these communities to look after themselves and we convict a few on the odd occasion one escapes is letting down a lot of underage girls and making us as bad as the perpetrators for allowing it to happen.

There's no liberal suggestion that we leave these communities to police themselves, only a suggestion that we don't assume any community condones these actions.

There's nothing to be gained by making this a Pakistani problem, and everything to be lost.

The solitary cause of it being a Pakistani problem is the fact that it is entirely Pakistani men carrying out these crimes.

The alternative is that we continue to ignore this fact for fear of being a bit less than PC and continue to see a rise in these cases, but hey, these girls are only trash from council estates and I don't live near one of those so it doesn't matter.

We have no evidence that these crimes are being carried out entirely by Pakistani men. Will you accept that if I can find a single counter-example, or don't you believe it either?

Even *if* that were the case it wouldn't suggest that all Pakistani men think that this is acceptable behaviour. It's like saying, "All rapists are men, therefore all men are rapists" - in that example making all men responsible for the reprehensible actions of a tiny number of men hardly makes the situation better, does it?

I don't for a minute think that all Pakistani men think it is acceptable. I do think that a blind eye will be turned in those communities where it happens. I do think there will be a larger community knowledge of these crimes that is simply ignored for fear of upsetting the community as a whole. I do feel that the justification for this is that these girls will have got into trouble one way or another so it probably doesn't matter.

Burying your head in the sand doesn't change the statistics. I'm quite sure that somewhere, at some point in time, a white group may have done a similar thing, but this is becoming endemic and it can't be the right thing to do to just put it down to coincidence that these groups are all from the same place for the sake of politcal correctness. There is something happening amongst a section of this society to encourage these acts and it must be stopped.

So the priority is improving race relations? I think that's one of Brewie's points.

Problems highlighted in this thread are bound to occur when cultures of differing moral values mix.

But Pakistani girls are subject to abuse too. Arranged marriages are still practised, whereby girls of 13 or so are forced into wedlock, ending up pregnant before they are 16 and of legal consensual age.

Yes pakistani girls are abused but by there own community and not by gangs of white males . What annoys me most is liberals who jump to the top of the queue to defend these peoples rights and to deny a certain part of the community is responsible for these crimes .

Me?

I'm just arguing against Adam's point; I don't believe as he seems to that it's inherent in the society as a whole.

Certainly there are aspects of some Asian societies which annoy me to the hilt - anywhere where women are considered as property, which when you come down to it is what a forced marriage (not arranged; that's different) is, is what genital mutilation is, is what 'honour' killing is. I have difficulty understanding what is, to me, a stone-age mentality.

It may be that these societal attitudes are reflected in the behaviour of certain small groups of men but I do not believe that such attitudes are either common or condoned, particularly among Asians living in this country.

And that's why I objected to Adams original comment merely quoting the names of the accused.

No i was not reffering to anyone in particular i have been on other sites discussing this topic . First i listened to the lbc show first thing yesterday morning and they were describing some of the vile acts involved and my first reaction is for the victims .This problem was covered by bbc1 at the beginning of the year . An asian journalist tried to uncover why it involved so many pakistani men i mean it goes on its a fact . I just cant understand how one human being can do something like this to another .

I don't believe I've mentioned anybody's rights, and all I'm denying is that this problem rests exclusively with Pakistani men.

What I'm trying to get across to Brewster, and anybody else who wants to make this a race issue, is that associating this problem solely with one community doesn't do anything at all to lessen it or stop it happening again, it just gives racists a bit of a buzz.

Without having read anything on this thread it's easy to isolate issues:

Religion
Materialism
Do gooders that are too blinkered to understand both sides of any issue.
Oh and the fact that the people who run countries are so far detached from the common man that they have no clue what is really going on.

I think on an 80:20 basis the "organized" problem lies with men from the Indian sub-continent and that it obviously derives from their their cultural roots; only really manifesting itself when they are located in a different country with different values and basically a world of temptation....

We must be able to discuss the "smoking gun" of statistics, to get at the root causes and from there try and fix the problem. I am concerned that the stigma associated with not conforming to a politically correct agenda, will effectively drive out common sense, ultimately leading us to a very bad place.

From that report, they appear to come from Telford.

Can I try, one last time, to explain what I'm saying to those who are fixated on "liberal do-gooders" and "political correctness"?

The reason to avoid labelling this a Pakistani problem is that to do so serves no purpose. It doesn't make the perpetrators easier to catch, it doesn't make it less likely to happen, it just alienates a section of society.

If you think this isn't the case then complete this simple challenge...

Here's the plan:

Step 1: Make this a Pakistani problem. Print it in the newspapers, announce it from the rooftops, whatever.
.
.
.
Step n: The problem of sex-slavery is vastly reduced.

All you have to do is fill in steps 2 to n-1, and the only rule is that you must do it without, implicitly or explicitly, making the logical fallacy that because all members of set a are also members of set b it therefore follows that all members of set b are also members of set a.

You do that and then you can whine that political correctness is holding you back.