Totally agree.

I have always believed that violence against children says more about the inadequacy of those resorting to the violence than it does the ability of any child to learn.

Yes I know that there are problem children, and for that matter adults, who feel they are untouchable. These are though, I suspect, are often products of the inadequate parents. The only crumb of comfort I find is that complaining about the behaviour and morality of youth and young adults has been happening for hundreds of years and will I suspect go on for many hundreds more

Often find that reading posts on here is like stumbling across a Victorian discourse on the subject of the undeserving poor and why their indolence and fecklessness justify radical solutions such as the workhouse and the death penalty. It is truly depressing to find that views usually formed on the basis of prejudice and anecdotal evidence, rather than factual evidence and analysis, still command such an appreciating audience.

The problem with 19th century ideology (Victorian Values) is that it requires a fundamental belief that to make the country strong you had to weed out the weak. Herbert Spencer termed a phrase “The survival of the fittest". Such a sentiment intermingled with morality and wealth has led to a modern conclusion that the wealthiest are both the most moral and the most fit to survive. You can actually see such ideology in action. Our current government are disproportionately members of the wealthier side of society, a number of the cabinet feature on “Rich Lists” with some being amongst the top 1%. Hardly surprising then that they should feel they know what is best for the poorest people in our society? I do wish that these rich folks would stop trying to justify their actions by saying they are acting on behalf of the hard working people of the nation, this is absolute poppycock!

Demonising the poorest in society, attacking the welfare system and free health care provision are not matched by attacks on those who are farthest removed from the “Hard Working People of the Nation” The tax cheats, people who buy political influence, the bankers and financiers who brought us to where we are today. Perhaps if the Government were to PROPERLY deal with these people we could begin to address the skewed morality of the nation. Perhaps then people would cease to believe in out-dated and ineffective Victorian values.

Eloquently worded, Cap'n Bob.

Ah, you gotta love the Victorians. They were the ones who were so moral they made homosexuality illegal and raised the age of consent to twelve, in between carving up most of the world as their private fiefdoms.

For once we're in total agreement, Neil

I just love this thread, eloquent, disparate, yet with common themes, undercurrents and attitudes running throughout. I doubt that there'd be any real disagreement, in general, it's the 'solutions' and/or power that we lack?

An idea what about mandatory armed forces service for the people who decide to leave school with little hope of uni college etc. The amount of this age group 16-19 ATM just cant find work that they find acceptable.

IE I was speaking to a kid in this group he had little going for him would probably claim benefits and get a house from his local council 'his dream' I said Mcdonalds are always looking for staff! He said he would never work in a place like that?

Send theese people to unpiad national service and learn skills and manners!

Talk to the people that run the armed forces about conscription. It's actually a very expensive way of pissing everyone off, for remarkably little benefit.

An idea what about mandatory armed forces service for the people who decide to leave school with little hope of uni college etc. The amount of this age group 16-19 ATM just cant find work that they find acceptable.

IE I was speaking to a kid in this group he had little going for him would probably claim benefits and get a house from his local council 'his dream' I said Mcdonalds are always looking for staff! He said he would never work in a place like that?

Send theese people to unpiad national service and learn skills and manners!

I heard you the first time. My answer is still the same.

No, he wouldn't, because McDonalds isn't an easy job - you do have to actually work!
McDonalds staff are often parents who want to work and enjoy the flexible hours offered and/or college/university students who wish to earn a bit of cash to help pay towards their living costs, etc.
McDonalds staff often get treated as scum by the 'wonderful customers', when they are trying to do a job like the rest of us.

sorry for the double post 'vista mess up' I think it would change the people in question for the better, not to mention reduce petty crime. And for their ultimate response ' we bored and have nothing to do'

I was in the navy when was younger done my min time as salarys arent great esp if your young likelyhood of promotion small. It changed me, my attitude and would do it again at the same age 100% yes.

I never said it was easy but personally I dont think its difficult being honest. All people working with the public including myself deal with them. I would bet I get more issues with people than someone in mcdonalds tbh ie 'my order is wrong' My dealings more aggression from IT directors ' our voip isnt working properly as this dsl connection is shit its costing ££ per hour, in my head im like your running multi voip across a single dsl connection lol cheap skate company. Of course I cannot say that our reccomend what they should be using for voip as my company cannot get involved in any talk of products enhancments.

Corrected Jim

Point taken RK, but I prefer my version! You're haven't quite morphed into me...

The significant difference is that you volunteered for the job. For you it works. For me, say, I think that the armed services are perhaps the worst job possible - I'm no respecter of authority.

You may also have noticed that all the forces are engaged in significant personnel reductions at present.

I think you may have missed my point with the group being forced into mandatory service unpaid. we have to start something as it seems to work well in other countrys.

mandatory unpaid service? like slavery you mean?

Which other countries does it work well in? Most countries have abandoned conscription precisely because it doesn't work.

Indeed. The main occupation amongst the young in countries which have compulsory military service is working out how to avoid it.

I'd also argue against Jonny's point that it's unpaid and therefore free: the victims still need feeding and sheltering from the rain; clothing, transport, and other consumables.

And I'd also point out that the UK banned slave labour (and what else is this?) in 1833.

Even if there are countries it 'works well' in, that is not a reasoned argument for introducing it. It fails to take into account the difference between maintaining something that is in place and introducing it. If you are wanting to reduce individual resentment within society, I'm not sure a fat rich generation that never had to do it themselves forcing others into service is the way to do it.

There will be no underlying sense of need (because we haven't needed it until now), patriotic duty (because my country needs me to do this for its protection), honour of maintaining a cultural tradition (it is what has made this country great) or continuing a family tradition (my father, uncles and all my brothers did it).

How do you address that, and avoid the risk of a few years down the line unleashing a generation of people who are even more resentful and now trained in ways of organising themselves and entering combat?

Not saying it isn't a good idea, but it is good to think it through before we declare it a good idea rather than be blinkered to its flaws.

National Service in other countries is used as a cheap method of maintaining armed forces at a level judged to be neccessary, without the cost of paying a professional army at the same level. Not as a means of instilling discipline in young adults. In this context the cost of NS is offset by the cost of a 100% professional army. Every UK serviceman/woman who completes a full career (currently) draws a pension from the day they leave until the day they die. A significant element of the defence budget.

One real advantage from NS in W Germany was the option open to those who did not want to do it, to opt for Sozialdienst (community service). These carried out menial work in hospitals etc, thereby reducing the cost of medical provision. I was advised by a German that post re-unification, it was the loss of this cheap labour pool that delayed abolition of NS.

Incidentally National Servicemen were paid. Not as much as their volunteer comrades, and had reduced promotion prospects, despite being exposed to the same risks. It is also surprising how many subsequently became volunteers, having decided they actually enjoyed being a serviceman. (Anecdotal comment based on conversations with my dad, before this is challenged). Some benefited from learning a trade, my TR6 was restored by a garage owner who learned his trade in REME during NS.

Another grooming gang convicted today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-23079649. They should also sacked the head of child services as they failed to stop this in the early stages . 95 years is not long enough

Another typical gaggle of British subjects with absolutely nothing in common other than their obvious British nationality, I see.

I am losing track, is this not the 2nd or 3rd such group with the same demographic?

20 years for grooming and mass child rape - that is about as weak as it gets. They may not have killed them but I am sure they have ruined their lives and probably ensured these children can't have proper, stable families in the future as they will all be mentally destroyed. At some point very very soon someone needs to make an example of these people, perhaps we could get a few professional MMA fighters to use them for practice?

In that area? In the last month? There have been 4 or 5 at least! I think 3 groups have been done in the Yorkshire area very recently.

I wonder if it was done in the name of Allah.

Because that would make it ok.

Biggenz, I seem to remember you getting your boxers in a twist about apparently ignorant statements concerning South Africa. Might I suggest that now is not a good time to parade your own ignorance about Islam?

Believe it or not, some of my best friends are Muslim.

Is it not true that the atrocities committed by the very few extremist Muslims always do it in the name of Allah according to them?

Or what is their justification? Please do tell.