Now firstly I have to say if Barbz or Pero read this to bear with me here.

Ive had my Plus model coop now for 3 1/2 years and I havent stopped spending money on it, wheels, suspension, couple of turbos and a forged engine plus all the little bits and pieces and maintenance. Its been hard sometimes but it does drive bloody nice at the minute and doing all that work is very rewarding when it all comes together.

My dilemma is that I was going to go for a further upgrade and try for the magic 500+ bhp as Ive come this far now and that would be a great achievement, must also feel pretty special when I hear of alot of people from here going on track days and leaving Ferraris and other top end marques behind. But im in doubt whether to be spending more ££££ on a 12 year old Fiat. Ive only ever owned Fiats in my history, 4 to be precise and this one ive had the longest.

A few years ago I always wanted a E36 BMW M3, but back then it was alittle out my price range and by the time I thought I could afford one I then thought they were starting to age and I had gone off the idea and then thought Id always like to own an E46 BMW M3, which is probably now just in range for me to afford buying and running one, so im very tempted.
I really need to test drive one as I dont want to commit to one and get rid of the coop then regret it. I just think I would miss the power and noise of the coop and it would be really hard to see it go with someone coming along and enjoying all that hard work ive put in to it. I mean at the minute all it needs if im being really critical here is a wheel refurb and the sparco strut brace could do with a lick of paint too, thats it! But the m3 just ticks so many boxes.

I just dont know what to do!?

If anyone has any other ideas on cars too that would be appreciated, it has to have some power, not fussed about fuel and preferably an everyday car.

Also, I think Edz if your reading this you have to take me in your M3 mate and tell me about it too.

Sorry if that went on a bit, so confused at the minute.

Thanks.

Hmmm i see your dilemma Maurizio - I was in the same situation in that i'd spent boat-loads on my coupe and felt that I should stop the money flow and get something reliable. My mistake was going for a bog-standard E46 330i which was as interesting as eczma!

My mate at work though has now got a E46 M3 and took me for a spin and it was electrifying in both speed and handling, and felt very secure, safe and solid even at crazy speeds. Certainly food for thought, and I for one will return to this theme in a year or so I'm sure. I love the coupe too as you do, but like you say - 12 years old and a complete money pit

I loved my coupe (I've not kept a car for longer or more miles) but I think once you go out in something that's dynamically as good as an M3 (E36 or E46) it highlights the limitations (especially around weight distribution/handling balance) that the coupe has.

The fun of having a high-powered coupe for track work seems to me to be going fast and embarrassing expensive machinery, with the (relative) security FWD brings. Add to that the fun/comedy of modifying your car, and the whole "will I/won't I get home" element, and you've got a heady mix

However, there are things the coupe can't do, and a "feel" that the coupe can't replicate, that a well-balanced rwd car can. It's a personal thing, but once I had a (not particularly well-balanced) powerful RWD car (TVR Chimaera) I started finding the coupe dull/unrewarding to drive, and got rid of it.

I don't think there's many better all rounders than the M3, and E46s are plentiful and well-priced at the moment. M3cutters is your friend in terms of research.

Alternatives include a 350Z. Perhaps get some test drives in, see how they compare to the coupe?

I think most of us thought have of owning an M3 at some point. I know I did. Say what you want, an M3 is a good looking car and very nice to drive. However, if you're used to the kind of power your car produces, an M3 will feel like a wheel barrow. They are most definitely not quick in the way our cars are quick.

As someone once told me, with an N/A car you have never ending lag. And that's the truth for most of them! I think you will miss the coupe a lot more than you think once you've gotten rid of it. The fact that M3's are so common has put me off a long time ago.

The only time I'd get rid of the coupe is if I got something with more power. And that will no doubt be a lot more expensive to run. The coupe is the cheapest car on the market to make go really fast really easily.

I've had a look at turbo kits for the E46 M3, and the proper stuff starts at over £10k just for the bolt on kit. You do get around 600bhp at the rear wheels, but with no traction and will probably end up in a ditch somewhere. Add this to the cost of the car and you're nearly looking at £20k for a good example.

Sign me up for 10!!!

It all depends on whether you want to go fast or want to feel like you're going fast. Objectively going fast isn't any fun. Sitting at 40,000ft doing 550mph is pretty boring really. The best part of any flight for me is the take off, especially in a larger plane where you get that real kick the back.

The Coupé is very good at giving you that kick when the turbo spools up. It's the rate of change of acceleration. That doesn't mean you are actually going quickly, simply you think you are. The E46 will not give you that kick in the pants. My Z3M Coupe is the fastest car I've owned so far (until the 997 Turbo next year ). It did have excellent acceleration, but it was very linear. It would have left even most modded FIATs for dust, but if you jumped in it after a run in a FIAT you wouldn't feel like you were going that quickly.

It's not all about feeling fast/being fast though - you want something that's good to drive too, and for me that means well-balanced, RWD, non-turbo. Which isn't very similar to a 20vt.

Love this!



I was at the table with the girlfriend's parents telling them how souless my MX5 was despite being well balanced, nimble, responsive and fun to drive. Sure it doesn't have the grunt of the sort of cars you're referring to, but I think the principle remains.

I love driving the coop because it is so alive in your hands. Flat out in bends it is so playful, exciting and yet so forgiving. It understeers, then oversteers, then understeers again with nothing more than a dab of throttle and a bit of lock, and there's no danger of it getting out of control; unless you really take the pee and even then it can be caught easily. Throw in the noise, looks and loopy traction out of tight bends and you have a fun car to drive..

Sure they're a bit ragged on the limit, but it means you have more fun at lower speeds where something more competant would/could feel dull.

That's torque steer.

If you want something that gives feedback by the bucketload through the steering try a caterham. If you have one with an aeroscreen 70mph feels like you're doing 700.

I've owned a few cars now...
even a concourse modified mini... none of them got the looks like the fiat did.

So looking in from the outside what do people think about the actual situation.
Do I go the whole hog to 500-550bhp and have something that I think will be quite special but at the same time plough even more money into an old car and stick with what I've only ever known or explore something new that I've always wanted.
But will I be disappointed and regret selling a car that I probably won't be able to come across again for sale.

On top of that my dad angelo has a 520bhp coop plus.

I think I really need to drive the bm.

Excuse any punctuation mistakes as this is from my phone.

Thanks.

Has your Dad let you drive his car?

If so would you be happy with that and no more tinkering?

As you mentioned, the only way to find out is to drive an M3.

The fact that you owned the coop for so long and put so much into it doesn't mean you have to keep it forever. There will come a time when you part company with the coop. It's upto you when that is.

Summer last year i went to view an M3.
52 plate, wheels needed a refurb which was going to be done during the week. A slight inch longer scratch on the rear bumper. The rest of the car was perfect.
It drove great but SMG wasn't my cup of tea, felt nice & tight.
Asking price was £12k & with the wheels refurbed it was worth the money.
My problem was is it £10.5k better than my 300bhp coop, nope.
Think i'll have my coop forever, 8 years so far

Maurizio lock your Coupe away and buy the BMW.
We all know modded coupes are worth little,so it wont help you much in the cost of the new car, and i cant imagine that you would break it.
So keep it for when you have the urge to drive it again or when/if you sell the BMW.

Good luck .

personally, I'd say stick with the Coupe, but spend some time and effort (and money) making it ride and handle better.

Yes, I know its a fundamentally flawed design (FWD and 2/3 front weight bias) but with some choice mods, Coupes can be made to handle incredibly well without turning into a hard-riding go-kart

I would be perfectly happy to take on an M3, even on track (even on a wet track) - I would fully expect to beat it, regardless of conditions.

I accept that an M3 with handling mods would cause me some serious grief, but that's not what we're on about here - I know that ultimately, RWD is better than FWD, but not by the margin that some would have us believe.

Get yourself a ride (or even a drive) in a Coupe with a really well-sorted chassis and you won't believe how good it can be (for relatively modest amounts of cash too)

I would like to disagree with that. Maurizio's car is in great condition and has had a lot of work done to it, including forged engine, new turbo, good wheels, new good tyres etc etc.

I imagine he'd be able to get more or less what you'd expect to pay for an average M3.

I did not mean that technics car was a poor example of a modded coupe,in fact if its as nice as you say i may well be interested if it was to come up for sale,i supose what i really meant was DONT sell it YET,as the BMW could /will be boring sooner or later.

Driving around Kent for 30000 miles a year I rarely go a day without seeing a few M3s, and they don't make me look again. Very capable and very quick I'm sure, but I don't really care as they have no character and no soul. I have seen one Coupe (apart from my lot or at Brooklands) in the last six weeks, and that was Muzzynumber2's wine red that he had just bought and was taking back to Yorkshire .

Each of my three are fast enough to get me killed or banned if I am not careful; they are all different, but they all make me smile when I put the (right? ) key in the ignition and spark up. I would not get that emotion from an M3. I rest my case

I have owned a Coupe for well over ten years now. Granted I haven't driven mine for almost two years but I have had 'better' cars in the meantime.

An M3 is simply put a superior car to a Fiat Coupe. Yes they are common and yes they're not as fast as a modified Coupe but it has a quality and premium feel a Coupe will NEVER have.

Don't get me wrong, I love Coupes and that is why I still own one but I accept it for what it is. There aren't many cars that are as quick and look as good as a Coupe for the kind of money they go for these days.

However at the end of the day it is a £1500-£2000 (average) car now and whilst you can spend thousands of pounds on it (like I have done) and make it a more capable car, this highlights the case in point that it needs money spending on it to get it to a level which is on par with an M3 in terms of handling etc.

So my advice is keep the Coupe and drive it occasionally as no matter what anyone says any 400bhp+ car is fun and addictive! Buy yourself an M3 or equivalent and enjoy the best of both worlds.

Bear in mind you may think that an M3 doesn't feel as fast as a coupe straight line and your confidence in driving one isn't instantaneous but in the long run you will feel the difference.

I've had my RS6 for over a month now and I've barely experienced the limits of what it can do (round the bends atleast), but I'm already getting the feeling that it has masses of grip. Have I even got the tyres to screech in the corners yet? Barely. In the coupe I knew how it would handle, owning one for 10 years you get used to it.

So is it worth a coupe & £10k? Probably not, but like horsepower vs top speed it an exponential thing. To get a little more you have to spend a lot more. I would be dissappointed buying a new RS6 for £60k now, but a new coupe (was £24k vs a new RS6 is easier to understand).

I have toyed with the idea of an E36 M3 back in the day and I still like the shape of them. I like the E46 too however they are a little too common for my liking.

That's not my point though - it's nothing to do with ultimate pace round a track - the M3 would be nicer to drive, albeit harder to drive fast, especially in the wet.

Ultimately it would, IMO, be more rewarding, and teach you more about driving, as a result.

ETA - Arguments about "soul" and how common the M3 is, compared with the coupe, are a lot more convincing, I think.

I haven't driven an E46 M3, but I know if I did, I'd want one. I've driven 330s and 335D (which was stupidly quick)

I know that they are miles ahead of the Coupe in terms of refinement, reliability, build quality and general capability.

I know that a standard M3 will be closely matched by even a lightly modded Coupe in a straight line. I also know that it would take a highly modded Coupe to stay with an M3 round the twisties.

I know I would enjoy driving one, but I simply can't imagine me owning one.

For me, the appeals of Coupe ownership are:-

Exclusivity and "WTF factor"
Noise (although I accept that an M3 with a nice exhaust also sounds pretty special)
Ease of modification
Cost of accessibility (although I also accept that I could easily have bought an M3 with the money I've spent on my Coupe)
Image

I'll soon be in a position where I could afford a better car, but for the life of me, I can't think what I'd have.

I guess part of the problem is that I know there are better cars out there and if I try them, I'll want one. It's therefore easier to convince myself that my Coupe is all-conquering and its therefore not worth even test-driving another car.

I know that if I test drive a late-model 911, I'll be hooked, so I refuse to drive them.

Ignorance is bliss.....

I think it's about time you took a Caterham out Nigel. Not better in many ways, but i could see you in one of those.

Im on my phone so will make this brief. I agree with a lot of what neal and brewster have said.

Bottom line is that the coupe is easy to modify and feels fast to drive particularly in a straight line. Dynamically its weight distribution and suspension is from another era and when you have driven something from the modern era for a while its hard to imagine going back. There is also the weight distribution issue and the fact that going round corners in a rear wheel drive car is just more engaging.

However thats not really the question in the op. In answer to that id say that if you want a 500 bhp car then an m3 will never make you happy when it comes to a straight line drag - and unless you are an amazing driver thats the only way you will be opening those taps on pretty much any car.

Is it financially a good idea to spend the money you are talking about on a coupe. No its madness, but on that measure you are pretty much there already. So if you are happy to "loose" the money and you will be happy having done so then why not?

I've had an E39 M5 for over 5 years and 40k miles now but I have to be honest and say that I have never pushed it to the limit anywhere but in a straight line.
Obviously if my driving skills were god-like I'd be sideways everywhere but they are not and being a total jessie I keep the stability control thing on all the time - although it has been sleeping once or twice. The only problem with this is that if I am pushing the car it will occasionally ease off the throttle by itself when it thinks there is some slip which is a bit irritating but I'm happy to accept the safety net and drive round it by being a bit gentler on the throttle in those circumstances.
The only times I've deliberately switched the ESP off has been to barbecue a set of worn rear tyres and a few times in the wet pulling away from junctions on a nice wide road where there's been a big area to deal with anything.

By contrast I know I drive my (standard) coupe harder, more often and in pure performance terms at sensible speeds it isn't that far behind the M5. I've certainly never jumped into it and felt disappointed.

Right been so busy the last few days I havent had a chance to reply. Where do I start......firstly thanks for all the replies, has made me think about the whole situation in many different ways.

Neal, That m3cutters forum is very good and what you say about the M3 being plentiful is so true.

Danthemanc, true that I wont have it forever and that one day I will sell it unfortunately.

Couple of people said about keeping the Coupe AND having an M3, that would be perfect, but if I could do that then I wouldnt of posted this thread up originally, thats just not an option unfortunately, insurance, tax and maintenance on both would be a bit much.

Nigel, Handling and ride wise its sorted. At the turn of the new year I spent well over 1k on the whole front suspension refresh, i.e wishbones, droplinks, bushes etc,etc the rear subframe bushes, rear trailing arm bearings, ontop of that had a Whiteline rear ARB fitted and the front subframe welded, this was ontop of my already Bilstein and Eibach combo PLUS brand new Continental Sport Contact 5 all round. The car was transformed!
I think this is why I am now thinking of more power or a complete change, they are the 2 options. I think the car can handle the extra power now, it puts it down so well.

Lots of valid points that crossed my mind though about the weight distribution of the BMW, the ride, the build quality, the handling and I still love the looks of them too.

I think a test drive is in the pipeline hopefully in the next couple of weeks, then I think I will post my thoughts on here.

Thanks all.

Good stuff Technics - look forward to seeing what you think.

You're going to love that engine - don't short-shift on the test drive, it likes revs

Is the E90 M3 worth considering? Examples are now down to £20k and that V8 is supposed to be sublime.

I drove an E90 for 20 minutes round Brands and it was sublime. But for me it had too much power living in congested Kent, you just would have nowhere to use it on the roads unless you were going out at 3am.

Could you SORN your Coupe technics, so you aren't paying tax, then if you're not driving it nothing to pay in maintenance and insurance either. Buy and run an M3 for the rest of Summer and then decide which one you'd like to keep.

I think what he's trying to say is, he needs the money from the Coupe to fund the purchase of a new car.

Not sure who can really afford to park up a high powered coupe and just go and buy an M3 as if it's nothing.

Which is completely fair, but looking at what he's invested in the Coupé it doesn't appear that he's one of the current crop of owners that are attempting to run a sportscar on a shoestring.

If I was in this position I'd be looking to stretch myself a little and get into a Z4M Coupe or E90 M3. The E46 is going the way of the E36 and is falling into the hands of the less desirable owners. I know you should drive what you like and to hell with other's perceptions, but despite protests from some appearance does matter to many.

I'd be interested to hear what you think as well

One of my friends has a E92 M3 and he loves it. He says it's very competent in every area, and is extremely fast in the real world, there's not much outside of supercars which can touch it for out and out pace.

However he says that when he drives it hard he doesn't get the full thrill, as he knows a lot of the driving is being controlled by computers. He said that for his next car he would consider something older which has a more raw driving experience, eg 993 / TVR etc, to bring back the thrill of driving.

Good point Nigel, I've just sold my Coupe after 14 years.... now got a 997 C2S, totally different driving experience, loving every minuite

In the back of my mind though, in the future..... I know I will miss the Coupe.....

There's something to be said for driving a "pure" car with little or no technology to assist.

Last week, I drove my son's Mk1 Golf for the first time in a couple of years - what a revelation. Pure, unassisted steering, modest brakes, (very) modest power, very low weight and just enough grip meant I had a brilliant time (while not risking my neck or my license while I was at it)

Something to be said for a light, basic car.

Mk1 Elise anyone?....

Good points from Nigel and Gunzi.

Maurizio - I've only skim-read this thread but gotta ask. Would it be practical to keep the Coupe and buy a £500 snotter for day-to-day? Something good on fuel needn't break the bank, only a few hundred quid a year for tax and insurance and minimal maintenance. That way every time you get in the Coupe it will feel special. Works for me.

Or is it a straight decision between Coupe and M3?

If it is - no disputing the M3 is a great car, well engineered and all that. But you wouldn't half miss that turbo kick. I'd stick with what you've got - and get a snotter.

Thats not a bad idea to be honest, something I will think about actually.

BMW'S are great - until they go bang.
You can thrap a high powered coup, pop the block get a replacement for 500 quid and swap the fun parts and off you go again. Damage an m engine and you'll be very poor.

Buy an old xr2 - more fun than you can imagine and your coupe will feel like a legend killer afterwards!

Still feels 'modern' and heavy compared to a Caterham.

I was at a lotus-on-track day in France and Ian whom i'd been speaking to for about an hour let me take his Mk1 Sport 160 out on track.

It was lots of fun, but a hugely 'refined' when comparing both cars back to back.

As Dave says Nigel, try a seven. You'll love it.

Technics. Admittedly I hadn't spent as much as you have on your coupe, but I'm sure there will come a time when you finally decide to move on.

The pro's of doing it now is that you have a coupe that's currently worth something. Leave it a few more years and the number of people who've known you go through what you have with the car will dwindle and you're left with a heavily modified car that no one really knows the history of and is therefore much less appealing. (Look at the value of standard vs modified Escort Cosworths for example).

I know it's difficult when you grow attached to a car but life is also about trying different things. Speaking from the other side of coupe ownership (almost), it's great to try different cars. I'm currently on my second Caterham and that will soon be sold in exchange for an oil burning baby lugger. I have so far (and I'm sure will) enjoy the continued variety.

O.K So, update!

I went from this:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g421/technics5/BMW001.jpg

To this:
http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/

To this:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g421/technics5/BMW002.jpg



So I had this M3 idea in my head for a while for many different reasons and when I went into my local newsagents and saw the August issue of BMW Car Magazine with the front page saying Ultimate guide to buying and maintaining an E46 M3, I thought this is a sign and I best get a copy!

Then Neal from here on the forum recommended the M3Cutters forum as a good source, so off I went and it was very useful for doing some homework.

Started looking around, thought I best test drive a few M3s, then I saw this one above on Saturday eve and that was it, I had to get it, only deposit for now so not the best pic.

So as much as I know for a fact I will miss the coop, the comments in this thread really made me think about the whole thing, its true that I will have to get rid of the coop one day, unfortunately.
I wish I could have both, but I just cant.

So, when I get back from my holiday the coop will be advertised for sale,

Nice. CSL rims too!

Very nice looking car for a hair dresser

^^^^ ^^^^
I was going post something, but it looks like its to late!....I am sure you won't regret it!
Well done and good luck with the future.
Jon.

Top down fun, you'll love it!

Good work Technics, glad M3cutters sorted you out. Car looks very nice - look forward to the write-up, spec and some more pics

Thanks everyone

Yes Neal, I will do.

Good luck with it mate make sure vanos changed, dont take fully bmw history as good, same on here specialist far better. I looked into it all before the Dc5.

Also check insurance if was the killer for me.

Power wise they chuck out 310-320 car to car as my tuner has one himself, too old now for a honda lol

Good luck I would reccomend taking someone with you that knows them inside out as you would a coupe.

Nice cars thumbs up

Each to their own Maurizio, i really hope it works out for you. Shame about the coupe but life moves on sometimes

coupes now are getting old! E46 m3 is a nice progression with a different drivetrain power delivery etc.

Fiat why not give us what we all want here coupe mrk3 ?

They did. Take your pick.

http://pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?g=...t=&nodays=0

Good luck mate