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Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: ] #1458093
14/11/2013 14:10
14/11/2013 14:10
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 111
France (Marseille)
Julien Offline
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France (Marseille)
Originally Posted By: alfisti
Look nice, but i think that they are a litle bit off center on the caliper. but maybe the photo only. Please rethink radial mount calliper from brera or other they are much common and they've got longer (larger) brake pads.


It's not the photo, the calipers are actually not perfectly centered because the face of the adapter is sitting on the rough part of the original mounting bracket (the adapter is a little bit too big...)

About radials, yes, it would be easier but it's twice the price of standard fiat coupe brembo calipers (which is suppose to be "low cost" and the original idea was to propose an adapter plate to mount 330mm discs without changing anything else on 20vt, it should be ready before christmas).

wink

Last edited by Julien; 14/11/2013 14:10.
Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1458154
14/11/2013 20:14
14/11/2013 20:14

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alfisti
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In 16VT case its not a problem beacause you must buy anyway.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1458215
15/11/2013 09:45
15/11/2013 09:45
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
Per Offline OP
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Good work, keep it up!

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1458258
15/11/2013 15:21
15/11/2013 15:21

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JimmyJ
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Seems a bit of a waste if you don't use the whole disc.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1459243
21/11/2013 07:45
21/11/2013 07:45
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,194
Göteborg, Sweden
Freddan72 Offline
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Nice!

Now time for a road test. smile


Coupé Fiat 20V Turbo Plus 1999, T19 Mitsubishi turbo
https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1459420
22/11/2013 10:32
22/11/2013 10:32
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Rudidudi Offline
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good effort but as above, if the caliper and pad are the same, is there really much of a point? OK, braking at the extremity of a disk may be mechanically 'easier' but is this proven in practice?

In terms of design, it worries me when brakes are meddled with. Id be making sure that any inside corners have a radius to avoid stress risers.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1459530
23/11/2013 00:23
23/11/2013 00:23

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alfisti
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Pads are the second place or even third when you are talking about the braking most important is disc size this is all about power lever.
In 20VT youve got caliper, but for 16VT you must buy some brembo caliper in my personal opinion the best choice is brake caliper from Brera (for example). They've got radial mount ,and longer brake pad it,s 10mm longer if im correct.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: ] #1459923
25/11/2013 17:07
25/11/2013 17:07
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 111
France (Marseille)
Julien Offline
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Julien  Offline
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France (Marseille)
Originally Posted By: alfisti
In 16VT case its not a problem beacause you must buy anyway.

In france these kinds of calipers are sold between 300-350£ without pads so it's not a cheap conversion

Originally Posted By: JimmyJ
Seems a bit of a waste if you don't use the whole disc.

It is and it's not.
The whole discs offeers more surface to cool down which should avoid the original disc bend under hard braking.

Originally Posted By: Rudidudi
good effort but as above, if the caliper and pad are the same, is there really much of a point? OK, braking at the extremity of a disk may be mechanically 'easier' but is this proven in practice?

In terms of design, it worries me when brakes are meddled with. Id be making sure that any inside corners have a radius to avoid stress risers.

Of course, if you apply the same resistive force at a further point from the center of rotation of the wheel, the braking power will be proportionnal (here +-8% more).

Originally Posted By: alfisti
Pads are the second place or even third when you are talking about the braking most important is disc size this is all about power lever.
In 20VT youve got caliper, but for 16VT you must buy some brembo caliper in my personal opinion the best choice is brake caliper from Brera (for example). They've got radial mount ,and longer brake pad it,s 10mm longer if im correct.

The pad surface is not related to braking power but with heat at the contact pads/discs.
Only the pistons diameter are related to the caliper "braking force capacity".
If the brera have the same pistons calipers as the fiat coupe 20v turbo, then it's stopping capacity is the same.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1460029
25/11/2013 23:17
25/11/2013 23:17

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burnbike
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i don't understand how a short brake pad offer the
same friction of a longer braking pad

it's like to say a widest tyre offer the same grip
of a short one

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1460043
26/11/2013 01:04
26/11/2013 01:04

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JimmyJ
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It still is a waste if you're looking for more braking power. Only for cooling it's not worth it.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: ] #1460065
26/11/2013 08:48
26/11/2013 08:48
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 111
France (Marseille)
Julien Offline
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Originally Posted By: burnbike
i don't understand how a short brake pad offer the
same friction of a longer braking pad

it's like to say a widest tyre offer the same grip
of a short one


The friction is linked with the force applied by the pistons of the calipers on the pads.
There is a friction limit for each pad depending on temperature. It means that even if you put more pressure (by putting bigger pistons or even higher brake pressure) on the pad, the friction factor will be at his highest point and you won't brake more.

And yes, that's the same for the tyres :

If you put like 235/40/17 track tyres at the rear of a fiat coupe, you won't be able to heat them up until a few lap, you will think it has more grip due to the wider tyre and less body roll, but it is not thanks to the grip.

Originally Posted By: JimmyJ
It still is a waste if you're looking for more braking power. Only for cooling it's not worth it.


It highly depends on what you put behind "worth it"

If you spend less than 150£ for 8% more braking power, no disc bending under hard conditions and much more constant braking; for me it doesn't sound as a "waste".

Also, the biggest increase is mainly for 16VT as you go from 1 floating pistons with 284*22mm discs to 4 pistons brembo with 330*28mm discs for around 450£.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: ] #1460151
26/11/2013 20:50
26/11/2013 20:50
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,308
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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Originally Posted By: burnbike
i don't understand how a short brake pad offer the
same friction of a longer braking pad

it's like to say a widest tyre offer the same grip
of a short one


A wide tyre DOES give the same grip as a narrower one....


[Linked Image]
Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1460194
26/11/2013 23:22
26/11/2013 23:22

A
alfisti
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alfisti
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It's all very complicated.
1 Why do we need bigger disc rotor?
Because the braking power is mostly connected with arm length ( when you are using some tools you need longer arm the same with the brake rotor size)
2 Second one "hydraulic lever" the smaller brake pump size and bigger piston size will increase the power, but brake pedal travel distance will be increased !! (check on wikipedia)
3 Shorter pads (the same piston in caliper) will give more pressure at 1cm2,
but longer pads can take more heat ,and the area of friction is increased
4 Pads, sports pads need to heat up any way like ds2500 or ds3000 or any other
5 Than weve got tyres , their compounds, stick area ..etc
6 Modern brake systems (ABS pump) can creat some pressure before you can even start to brake

Last edited by alfisti; 26/11/2013 23:27.
Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1460202
27/11/2013 00:12
27/11/2013 00:12

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burnbike
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i agree wink

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: ] #1460254
27/11/2013 10:15
27/11/2013 10:15
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 111
France (Marseille)
Julien Offline
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Julien  Offline
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France (Marseille)
Originally Posted By: alfisti
It's all very complicated.
1 Why do we need bigger disc rotor?
Because the braking power is mostly connected with arm length ( when you are using some tools you need longer arm the same with the brake rotor size)
2 Second one "hydraulic lever" the smaller brake pump size and bigger piston size will increase the power, but brake pedal travel distance will be increased !! (check on wikipedia)
3 Shorter pads (the same piston in caliper) will give more pressure at 1cm2,
but longer pads can take more heat ,and the area of friction is increased
4 Pads, sports pads need to heat up any way like ds2500 or ds3000 or any other
5 Than weve got tyres , their compounds, stick area ..etc
6 Modern brake systems (ABS pump) can creat some pressure before you can even start to brake


That's it wink

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1460359
27/11/2013 22:01
27/11/2013 22:01

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alfisti
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Sorry, for basics, but sometimes we are thinking about something great and cant see small issues. ;-)
Im still waiting for final "masterpiece" , and i hope it will be realy perfect.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: ] #1460930
01/12/2013 07:30
01/12/2013 07:30
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549
Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
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Ferrarist  Offline
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Posts: 549
Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: alfisti
It's all very complicated.
1 Why do we need bigger disc rotor?
Because the braking power is mostly connected with arm length ( when you are using some tools you need longer arm the same with the brake rotor size)
2 Second one "hydraulic lever" the smaller brake pump size and bigger piston size will increase the power, but brake pedal travel distance will be increased !! (check on wikipedia)
3 Shorter pads (the same piston in caliper) will give more pressure at 1cm2,
but longer pads can take more heat ,and the area of friction is increased
4 Pads, sports pads need to heat up any way like ds2500 or ds3000 or any other
5 Than weve got tyres , their compounds, stick area ..etc
6 Modern brake systems (ABS pump) can creat some pressure before you can even start to brake

Very true.......
And maybe worth to say that you brake system(calipers,pads,disc) don't really care if your car is 50 or 500bhp.....again - for the brakes there is no difference if your car is 50 or 500bhp - weight of the car matters for the brakes.....i guess you never press throttle and brakes same time......well when braking on gear sometimes heavy engine internals change the equation a little, but not that much......
Hope you understand that above did not include tyre change......when brake change is combined with wider tyres, there is great effect.....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1461048
01/12/2013 21:57
01/12/2013 21:57

A
alfisti
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alfisti
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Power has sth to do with it.
If you.ve got fast car you are driving faster, harder more on the limit you are braking later..etc. I hope that you know what im trying to tell;-)

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: ] #1461087
02/12/2013 07:29
02/12/2013 07:29
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549
Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
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Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: alfisti
Power has sth to do with it.
If you.ve got fast car you are driving faster, harder more on the limit you are braking later..etc. I hope that you know what im trying to tell;-)

Yes, if you upgrade to wider tyres it's worth having brake upgrade......but no matter how much bhp your car is, it's pointless to have huge calipers-discs if your tyres can not provide grip.....all car makers design brakes relatively OK for almost every car on the line.....and it was designed for weight and tyres used......
You have two 100 kg mans sliding on ice down the hill, wearing same size of shoes - one of them is fat and other is world wrestling champion......who will stop first?.....why the wrestler may stop first if they just slide and rely on the grip of it's shoes?


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Ferrarist] #1500636
29/07/2014 16:56
29/07/2014 16:56
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 350
Slovenia
Mrzly_slo Offline
Making a profit
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Posts: 350
Slovenia
I have to reply on this topic because I'm currently thinking about alfa brembo conversion.

I have someone who is willing to sell me alfa 166 super Brembos with pads for 120€, all I need is a discs, and maybe an adapter?
I have a VIS that I'm used to drive sporty and now I have EBC Ultimax discs and brakes, which are not as good as I thought....So currently I have two choices. laugh

Buy the brembos for 120€ and discs from LAncia D. 3 for 150€....
or
Buy sports EBC discs with RED stuff pads for 330€...

What should I do? A lot of people here are saying that the alfa brembos are a straight fit on Coop? With lancia discs?
What about the HUD diameter , is it the same 58.1 as the Lancias???

If someone has any ideas how to help me I would be very thankfull....

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1500645
29/07/2014 17:41
29/07/2014 17:41
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,137
London
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London
you will need adapters to fit alfa 166 brembo's to your coupe .



360bhp coupe gone , now M5 f10 700bhp
Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1500657
29/07/2014 20:13
29/07/2014 20:13
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,025
Southsea
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Gunzi Offline
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Southsea
Marco said earlier that the Brembos won't fit under standard 20v or 20vt alloys.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Gunzi] #1500708
30/07/2014 07:30
30/07/2014 07:30
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 350
Slovenia
Mrzly_slo Offline
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Slovenia
I know, if you have 330mm discs the minimum is 17" alloys, but I have Asa Ar1 18" on, so that shouldn't be a problem.... laugh

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1500753
30/07/2014 15:55
30/07/2014 15:55
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549
Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
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Bulgaria
Do you really think that so much heavy 330mm discs with big 18" rims and tyres will not affect car's handling?
Some may say that it will stop better(and this can be debated a lot, because you did not change car's weight), but lot of unsprung masses always affect handling.
Why not using 310 or 312mm discs? It may require redrill, but it's not a big deal......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1500785
30/07/2014 23:01
30/07/2014 23:01
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 122
Sofia, Bulgaria
digitalundgrd Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Couple of weeks ago I changed my stock 284mm x 22mm discs and stock Lucas calipers.

Now I am using Alfa 166/Kappa 20vt 4 pot Brembo with 305mm x 28mm discs (Coupe 20vt/Mito Qv). This set up is so much better compared to the stock! The initial bite is superb and heavy braking from 140+ mph is not a problem any more...Pedal feel and travel are the same as before (no need to change brake master cylinder). You need to make 2 steel brackets. Here are some pics :

click to enlarge click to enlarge

Some useful info :

284mm x 22mm discs - 6 kg each disc
305mm x 28mm discs - 8.3 kg each disc
310mm x 28mm discs - almost 9kg each disc
330mm x 32mm discs - 10.3 kg each disc

Last edited by digitalundgrd; 30/07/2014 23:06.
Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Ferrarist] #1500912
01/08/2014 01:26
01/08/2014 01:26
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
Per Offline OP
I need some sleep
Per  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Do you really think that so much heavy 330mm discs with big 18" rims and tyres will not affect car's handling?
Some may say that it will stop better(and this can be debated a lot, because you did not change car's weight), but lot of unsprung masses always affect handling.
Why not using 310 or 312mm discs? It may require redrill, but it's not a big deal......

I have been thinking of the Alfa 310mm disc but the advantage will be too small for the hassle. Also it wont fit within the calipers..

Re your thinking on big brakes, why then has not all fast factory cars very small brakes if that's better..? laugh
You are right that the cars weigth is one of the factors, but what brakes really do is transverse moving energy to heat. And the moving energy is a product from power x weigth. More power - better brakes please, very simple.

Unspung weigth is a different matter, but of secondary interest when you are running out of brakes.

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1500922
01/08/2014 08:04
01/08/2014 08:04
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 549
Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
Enjoying the ride
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Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: Per

Re your thinking on big brakes, why then has not all fast factory cars very small brakes if that's better..? laugh

I never said that bigger brakes is not advantage, but only when combined with wider tyres - they provide more grip, and more braking power needed.......
And as we all noted - all very powerful cars, had very wide tyres......Size of the brake system is 95% determined by the weight and tyres of the car......
Running on semi or full slicks also require bigger brakes.....
Heat - ok, braking produce heat and bigger disc and pads transfer heat better, but i doubt that any average daily driver with average remaped Coupe to overheat brakes, unless he make 5-6-7-8 extreme stops one after another.....and some good pads may cure that.
I'm not against big brakes anyway, have it on my trackday car, but there is few pros and cons when using it on daily cars......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Ferrarist] #1500926
01/08/2014 08:40
01/08/2014 08:40

B
burnbike
Unregistered
burnbike
Unregistered
B



Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Originally Posted By: Hyperlink
They inspire much more confidence. I guess it depends on your requirements but I cant ever see better brakes as pointless....

Yes for sure there is much more confidence......and if brakes on some car is bad - better brakes upgrade is not pointless......
But it's pointless upgrade if tyres can not handle more braking force and slide anyway.....because there is a point where if OE brake system is fine and OK, it can offer more that tires can "grip".......good discs and pads IMO is OK for OE Coupe calipers if running standard tires......if semi's used then upgrade is good......
So maybe people must first be sure that there is still a problem when appropriate discs and pads is used, and only then upgrade to bigger calipers....
My point of view......

if the discs become larger from 28 to 33mm
it will handle more the heating on heavy stop
i presume it will distort less than original discs

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: Per] #1504766
26/08/2014 14:16
26/08/2014 14:16
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
Per Offline OP
I need some sleep
Per  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
Now I finally got proper late GTA 330mm calipers on the way, is there a good source for 2-piece 330mm disc's..?
(alu hub)
I know there are kits (Maxx etc.) which such disc's but I don't know if their offset's different to the std Alfa disc?

Re: Alfa 330mm rotors [Re: digitalundgrd] #1506536
06/09/2014 21:30
06/09/2014 21:30
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 229
Perth, Western Australia
Hoops82 Offline
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Perth, Western Australia
Originally Posted By: digitalundgrd
Couple of weeks ago I changed my stock 284mm x 22mm discs and stock Lucas calipers.

Now I am using Alfa 166/Kappa 20vt 4 pot Brembo with 305mm x 28mm discs (Coupe 20vt/Mito Qv). This set up is so much better compared to the stock! The initial bite is superb and heavy braking from 140+ mph is not a problem any more...Pedal feel and travel are the same as before (no need to change brake master cylinder). You need to make 2 steel brackets.


Good work, was it a fairly straight forward swap once the brackets were made, any plans with the rears?



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