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How to improve the handling on your coupe #1417653
24/03/2013 01:13
24/03/2013 01:13
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
charlie_croker Offline OP
I need some sleep
charlie_croker  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
My coupe is a 20VT6.
Originally wearing a W plate.

Like many I had bought a coupe and never driven one when it was fresh from the factory so I had no real idea how one could or even should handle.
I know that big lump of iron and aluminium sits out at the front and drives the front wheels. I also thought the under steer was understandable and acceptable.
I wasn't so enamoured of the torque steer when under boost.
I budgeted to improve the suspension as part of the yearly maintenance budget.

I used the forum search engine and voraciously read as many posts on handling as I could. It became apparent that as a car that I use most days coilovers would not really suit, I was also unhappy with the procedure for using Koni shocks on the front, why have to saw the top off of the old strut? It quickly became apparent that the Bilstein B6 shock and Eibach springs seemed to be both popular and offer the right level of compromise in terms aesthetics, handling and comfort. Luckily I had fitted eibach springs last year so that was around £200 I wouldn't have to find.
I was intrigued by the comments regarding an uprated rear anti-roll bar and added the cost of that to my refresh.
The refresh was done in stages (for cost purposes, over three weeks) and here's what I found:

Stage 1 General maintenance
Replacement drop links and wishbones. Torque steer was reduced, but no real, measurable effect on handling.
I still found myself turning the wheel to get the angle right for sharp bends then having to turn it further, body roll was fairly well controlled but understeer was there in droves.

Stage 2 Rear Anti-Roll bar
The 22mm whiteline rear anti-roll bar. A couple of weeks later, this was fitted and it has been the modification that has made the most difference. Fitting it was a "mare", according to the garage that did the work. In the end they bit the bullet and made new brackets as they weren't happy with the idea of re-using the original ones.

On the drive back, I turned right at a big roundabout, classic under steer expected but no, I entered and discovered I could tighten or loosen my line purely on the throttle. It was a revelation. Suddenly the coupe felt less like a heavy GT style car and more like a nimble sports car. Every corner became a new challenge. Cornering is far improved. I had had an EVO6 FMIC and Pro-alloy SIP fitted at the same time, and remembered the ARB had been fitted only when steering and I remember thinking "shit, thats tightened that up". smile

Stage 3 New Tyres
I could feel myself needing to take the next step in the improved handling challenge and decided to go for new shocks, someone kindly posted an ebay link to a pair of new front Bilstein B6s (from Alternative Autos, who have told me they will not be stocking Bilsteins for the coupe in future).

Whiile I waited for these to arrive and for my garage to have time to fit them, I decided to change the tyres, (I had Pirellis on front and one Federal and a Kumho on the rear (inherited from when I bought the coupe). Initially I had set my heart on Toyo R1-1R tyres in the 225/45x16 fitment.
But then I read a post where someone recommended Event-Tyres, who could supply and fit tyres at your place of work. They didn't have R1Rs though only T1Rs, with the weather being cold, and having read warnings about using and even storing the R1Rs in low temperatures, I decided to go for the T1-Rs (£90 each fitted). A well equipped van turned up at work, with a pair of air jacks the fitter soon had the wheels off and tyres changed, he was an ex Coupe owner, and even used a torque wrench to tighten the nuts. Overall a very good service and one I would recommend. He did mention that changing the top mount bearings would make sense.
After a hundred miles or so, the T1Rs have lost their mould release gel and are offering a good level of grip. It's too early to say if they are a massive improvement, but they needed changing anyway

Stage 4 - The front brakes
The car had originally came with OE front pads and I had put new M-Tec discs on all 4 corners together with OMP fast road pads at the front. I had never really felt that the braking was as good as it should be. Sometimes the OMP seemed wooden and seemed to me to lose grip/retardation, especially when you needed them suddenly.
So I added a set of Carbotech XP8s to the list of stuff that would be fitted at my local garage. These were supplied by Ian from Carbotech Carbotech ( 01768 885000) for £200 delivered as part of an ongoing Group buy.

Stage 5 - Bilstein Front Shocks
When I collected the Coupe, the new yellow B6s front legs could be seen if I crouched down low, the B6 shocks at the front have made a big difference, the nose of the car dips less under braking, even with the XP8s fitted, bumps in the road no longer feel so severe, that crashiness has gone.

Stage 6 - Rear Shocks
I was that impressed that I have now ordered Bilstein B6 for the rear of the car. And they are due to be fitted on 2nd April at which point the refresh will be complete.

So the finished item how does she handle?
Understeer? Whats that then? since the above, she corners like on rails and I have had a few other cars struggle to keep up round the twisty bits.

It really is like night and day, torque steer just no longer exists and under braking she just stays straight and true. When I collected her after the B6, top mounts and XP8s were fitted, the steering tracked and with the mechanic's warning to "read the bedding in instructions" for the XP8s ringing in my ears, I ventured out onto the nearest dual carriageway.

A few high speed to 10MPH stops later and it's fair to say I love the XP8s, they have immense stopping power, they have great grip from cold but when warm, well lets just say I have felt ABS kicking in on a dry road. They grip immensely well, even from cold, if you are unhappy with your Coupe's braking try these or the XP10s.

The Coupe feels far more modern in terms of handling, cornering can be controlled on the throttle and the XP8s can kill your speed far faster than you would ever believe. I think I achieved all that I hoped to when starting this journey. I find myself far happier with the handling and road holding of my coupe.

Rear Anti-Roll Bar an essential upgrade?
While all the items listed have made a difference, the one real stand out item is the rear ARB. It totally alters the Coupe's handling in corners, understeer is largely eradicated, my confidence in the car's grip has improved. For £130, it is a bargain.

Sorry if I have droned on, but I thought that any other owner in the same boat may find my experience useful.
So to reiterate:
New Droplinks
New front arms/wishbonaes
New top mount bearings
New front shock absorbers
Eibach springs
22mm Whiteline rear ARB

Rear shocks and ARB from Julian at Balance Motorsport a very helpful man.
Tyres from Event Tyres
Work on car completed at A&R motors the standard of workmanship is very high, and they have not been at all phased by the Coupe, I guess when you drive a car like this and are restoring a Model A Ford, then you can tackle the Coupe. If you're local I would definitely recommend them.

Now would anyone like to hear about the Evo 6 FMIC and Pro _alloy SIP?

Last edited by charlie_croker; 24/03/2013 19:05.

Happy
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417664
24/03/2013 02:05
24/03/2013 02:05

D
dlongstaff
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dlongstaff
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D



Originally Posted By: charlie_croker

I was also unhappy with the procedure for using Koni shocks on the front, why have to saw the top off of the old strut?


+1

Good read for anyone about to refresh! thumb

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417682
24/03/2013 09:23
24/03/2013 09:23
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,192
Bristol, UK
H
Hovedan Offline
Forum is my life
Hovedan  Offline
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H

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Posts: 6,192
Bristol, UK
Great post Mick, and with my spec identical, I'd be inclined to agree smile

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417684
24/03/2013 10:03
24/03/2013 10:03

P
porkypaul
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porkypaul
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Fantastic post Mick.

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417717
24/03/2013 12:37
24/03/2013 12:37
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 629
Bulgaria
french_coupe Online content
Club member 773
french_coupe  Online Content
Club member 773
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 629
Bulgaria
Good info. Thanks

This is pretty much the same path that I am also in the process of taking.


lost in space
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417767
24/03/2013 18:08
24/03/2013 18:08
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725
London
kj16v Offline
My life on the forum
kj16v  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,725
London
Great post. truly informative.

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: kj16v] #1417815
24/03/2013 22:50
24/03/2013 22:50
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,694
Midlands
MCMike Offline
Club member 2095
MCMike  Offline
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Posts: 3,694
Midlands
Only thing I would suggest is some camber bolts on the front struts smile


1972 Triumph Stag
1984 Alfasud TI
1999 Fiat Coupe Turbo LE
2005 350Z




Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417817
24/03/2013 23:04
24/03/2013 23:04
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,783
In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
Club Member 259
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Posts: 6,783
In the coupe.
Thanks Mick. Nice info.



Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: MCMike] #1417819
24/03/2013 23:10
24/03/2013 23:10
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
charlie_croker Offline OP
I need some sleep
charlie_croker  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
Originally Posted By: MCMike
Only thing I would suggest is some camber bolts on the front struts smile


Forgive me for my ignorance, but what advantage will they give me?

Mick

Ignore the above.
The Forum search came up trumps (as per usual) and a pair of Camber bolts are now on their way to me. Will feedback on any improvement smile

Last edited by charlie_croker; 24/03/2013 23:28.

Happy
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417821
24/03/2013 23:26
24/03/2013 23:26
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 548
Oxford
Sean_C Offline
Enjoying the ride
Sean_C  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 548
Oxford
Well done Mick. Good info there.


Enjoying Coop ownership, second time round . Also enjoying RWD action in a thundering V8 E90 M3.
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417822
24/03/2013 23:28
24/03/2013 23:28

S
suba
Unregistered
suba
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S



More grip on the front end on turn in.

Go for -1.3 degrees of negative camber on the fronts, and also half a degree of toe out.

This with all you have done already will give ou as good as it will get on a road coupe.

You don't mention a strut brace on the front end, do you have one?

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: ] #1417823
24/03/2013 23:29
24/03/2013 23:29
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
charlie_croker Offline OP
I need some sleep
charlie_croker  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
Originally Posted By: suba
More grip on the front end on turn in.

Go for -1.3 degrees of negative camber on the fronts, and also half a degree of toe out.

This with all you have done already will give ou as good as it will get on a road coupe.

You don't mention a strut brace on the front end, do you have one?


Thanks for the info, will definitely try that, yes I have an upper Brace


Happy
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417980
25/03/2013 21:04
25/03/2013 21:04
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
Forum veteran
Nigel  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Great post - agrees with my assertion that an uprated rear ARB is by far the single biggest handling improvement you can make (don't bother with the front ARB, it simply cancels out some of the gains delivered by the uprated rear)

Have to disagree with Suba though - Half a degree of toe out with -1.3 degrees camber will give you a great track car, but it'll be nervous on the road.

My camber was uneven, so I've used camber bolts to get it to about -1.4 degrees and then I've played around with the tracking to get the stability back. I started at parallel - the turn-in was amazing, but the car never felt planted, especially in (very) fast turns.

Step by step, I've moved half a mm further into toe-in and now I'm at the maximum recommended of 2mm in - still doesn't feel as solid as I'd like, so I'm going to back off to -1 degree camber and see how that feels.


[Linked Image]
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417981
25/03/2013 21:05
25/03/2013 21:05
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
Forum veteran
Nigel  Offline
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Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Originally Posted By: charlie_croker
yes I have an upper Brace


Time for a lower brace - makes quite a difference (but don't bother if you have to drive over lots of speedbumps)


[Linked Image]
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417983
25/03/2013 21:09
25/03/2013 21:09
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
charlie_croker Offline OP
I need some sleep
charlie_croker  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
Nigel,

thanks for the info, very useful. Unfortunately I have to pass over two of those awful "pillow/cushion" type speed bumps twice a day! So the lower brace might not be ideal. Though I am tempted, I don't recall seeing any of the Stainless steel ones (you developed?) for sale recently, so maybe the mild steel Alfa 156 one might be worth a try?


Happy
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417991
25/03/2013 21:52
25/03/2013 21:52

M
mattcooke
Unregistered
mattcooke
Unregistered
M



Whiteline rear arb group buy?

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1417993
25/03/2013 21:56
25/03/2013 21:56

M
mattcooke
Unregistered
mattcooke
Unregistered
M



On the subject delphi or oe? also poly bushed wishbones for fast road use? Or stick to standard rubber. Also a best place to buy would make this thread even better for lazy people like me.

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: Nigel] #1418018
26/03/2013 00:09
26/03/2013 00:09

S
suba
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suba
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S



I quite liked the toe out....but then I was trying to get a track setup that was OK for the road....not the other way round.

I would play around with the camber. 1.1 to 1.3 degrees negative is OK on the road, anymore and it's a bit extreme.

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418044
26/03/2013 09:14
26/03/2013 09:14
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
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Je suis un Coupé
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Posts: 8,057
Southsea
Originally Posted By: charlie_croker
...., so maybe the mild steel Alfa 156 one might be worth a try?


I have one of these, with eibach springs. If you go over speed bumps do it at 10-15mph depending on their height and straddle to get over the pillow single ones.

I've clouted mine on roads with lots of camber as well as on speed bumps to the point where I'm unable to get a socket into the recess. It will need cutting off!

They do make a nice difference, but you will hit it occasionally. Guildford was particularly bad for camber on its roads.

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418151
26/03/2013 18:42
26/03/2013 18:42
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,706
Gone
J
Jimbo Offline
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Posts: 9,706
Gone
I pulled a wishbone bolt out on a bad road with that lower brace, just be careful on anything less than a B road. They certainly do help to tighten up the front end though.

A welded subframe might be a better option, all the rigidity with no clearance issues.

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418184
26/03/2013 20:53
26/03/2013 20:53
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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Nigel  Offline
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Posts: 17,367
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To be fair, I've never touched my lower brace - I'm careful over pillow type speed bumps (two wheels on, two wheels off - never try to put wheels on each side)

Suba - I agree - I think my camber is a little too extreme for road use, so I'm going to back it off to about 1.2 degrees


[Linked Image]
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418219
27/03/2013 00:30
27/03/2013 00:30
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
Per Offline
I need some sleep
Per  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
And, as I've said before, if you have the tools for it, modify your lower brace so it doesn't sit so low.

I very rarely hit mine as it's not even the lowest point anymore.
The lower brace is such a huge gain so it's worth the effort i think! Especially with -1.5deg camber.

Mine:

click to enlarge
&
click to enlarge
&
click to enlarge

Never mind the GTV-braces. smile

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418227
27/03/2013 01:27
27/03/2013 01:27
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 233
Stockton on Tees
aleem Offline
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aleem  Offline
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Posts: 233
Stockton on Tees
Per, you are the man! Tell us more about modifying the brace.

Is that the OMP brace? I had had one sat in it's packaging for years - maybe now is the time to fit it.

Do you have some more details on how you modified it?

EDIT:

Just found this:

Originally Posted By: Per
Originally Posted By: paul
Per which brace is that ? looks very flat and a neat fit


Thanks, it's the same OMP with the small mods I just described.
New: http://sfk.ibk.se/depa/showfile.php?carpic_no=2377&type=picture
Modding: http://sfk.ibk.se/depa/showfile.php?carpic_no=2375&type=picture
Finished: http://sfk.ibk.se/depa/showfile.php?carpic_no=2376&type=picture


...over here: http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1265915&page=2

thumb

Last edited by aleem; 27/03/2013 01:50.
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418242
27/03/2013 09:19
27/03/2013 09:19
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
Per Offline
I need some sleep
Per  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
That's it! smile

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418801
29/03/2013 23:55
29/03/2013 23:55
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
charlie_croker Offline OP
I need some sleep
charlie_croker  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
OK after a week of driving with new front end, here's my opinion:

The back end really does need those new B6 Dampers, while the current ones will bounce less than three times after being compressed, the difference when passing over a bump is marked between the front and the rear. So roll on Tuesday smile

The rear anti roll bar continues to impress. Car handles so much sharper than before through bends of all descriptions, I am more then ever convinced that this is one upgrade that everyone should have.

The Carbotech pads are awesome, though the low speed "squealing" isn't, But the retardation? Well I have had the ABS kick in on dry, shell gripped surfaces.
The braking is now far more confidence inspiring. The black dust left over the rims far less so. Would I recommend the XP8s? Without a single doubt.

Toyo TR1 tyres, with 180 miles since fitting they feel scrubbed in and despite the 4 seasons in one day weather conditions, they have impressed. Grip is amazingly better than the Pirellis I had on front and the weird mix on the rear end.

The front end is strange, feels very planted but the ride surprisingly compliant, an almost unbelievable mix of Grip, ride comfort and looks (She looks low). Torque steer eradicated.

Eibach Camber bolts and Rear B6 still to fit on Tuesday 2nd April.

Addendum.
If planning your own suspension refresh, remember to consider Joe/ Country Cruising's welded front suspension set up, I wish I had.
Joe also has rear subrames. Again, this is something to factor in to the cost of your rebuild. smile


Happy
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418807
30/03/2013 00:17
30/03/2013 00:17

M
mattcooke
Unregistered
mattcooke
Unregistered
M



Where are the camber bolts from?

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: ] #1418809
30/03/2013 00:29
30/03/2013 00:29
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
charlie_croker Offline OP
I need some sleep
charlie_croker  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex


Originally Posted By: mattcooke
Where are the camber bolts from?


Sourced mine from ebay, for approx £22 delivered.


Happy
Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: charlie_croker] #1418843
30/03/2013 10:31
30/03/2013 10:31

M
mattcooke
Unregistered
mattcooke
Unregistered
M



Nice one cheers

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: ] #1419312
01/04/2013 15:04
01/04/2013 15:04

S
suba
Unregistered
suba
Unregistered
S



Careful with camber bolts....do not buy cheap ones....if they snap it won't be good.

Re: How to improve the handling on your coupe [Re: ] #1419347
01/04/2013 19:08
01/04/2013 19:08
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
charlie_croker Offline OP
I need some sleep
charlie_croker  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
Originally Posted By: suba
Careful with camber bolts....do not buy cheap ones....if they snap it won't be good.


That was for Eibach bolts smile


Happy
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