I completely agree, the current range is less than inspiring in every aspect other than looks and has little to nothing in common with the heritage Alfa have. I think the last car they produced with anything remotely connected to their racing was the homologated 156 GTA and before that 155 Silverstone with the rear wing in the boot so they could run it in the BTCC.

Alfa do have every bit as good a racing pedigree as Porsche. True, they don't have a car like the 911 that has been successful for such a long period of time but they've got a much older and broader history.

It's a shame this isn't reflected in their current cars but you can't ignore it's happened.

I never mentioned soul and wouldn't attach the term to a car. Personality maybe, but not soul. And that is something that has been lost for a good few years now.

So we're agreed - VAG ownership can only be a good thing for Alfa. You never know, they'll probably allow them to draw on their own heritage, make their own engines for the special cars, give them the funds to develop another 8C, allow them to develop more special models such as the 4C and give their standard models some respectability with regard to depreciation and build quality.

The alternative is that they keep trying to flog re-bodied Puntos and Bravos as something special due to the badge's heritage. The current models aren't even good looking. The GT was a stunning looking thing, if just a sloppy 156 underneath. The MiTo looks like a startled bushbaby and the Giulietta is a weak attempt to associate with the 8C front end. It's ugly and just doesn't work. I will admit to liking the tail lamps though. They must have some of that racing heritage injected into them.

To be fair, Skinflint, what proportion of Alfas - past or present - have a "spine-tingling V6"?

Talking soundtracks, an air-cooled 911 at full chat is one of the most recognisable and evocative sounds I can think of in a car.

Ultimately this is a non-argument - I have nothing against Alfas (well, except the 145, 146, the previous Giulietta and the 33) and plenty of the usual Porsche-bashing views (what on Earth is the Cayenne all about?), but it's like comparing apples with oranges and is not the point of the thread!

I don't think it is. I see little evidence that VAG would let Alfa make its own engines etc not that they do that anyway at the moment.

I also don't see it makes much difference if the cars are restyled fiats or VAG cars, either way investment is needed in quality so they can standup in their own right. Perhaps it may be easier for VAG but it should be something Fiat are capable of but I don't think the will is there to truely invest whats needed. In that repect maybe it does add benefit to move to VAG but its by no means a simple move as where would they fit in the line up? Is there room in the market for yet another Polo/Golf/Passat clone? I am unsure.

It may be better for Afla (and Fiat) to further develop their work with Mazda or other brands.

The GT was/is a good looking car but I think its a little unfair to call the 156 sloppy. I don't disagree that the quality was and is an issue but it was well regarded in its time.

I am not keen on the current model styling and agree that they are trying to gleam some prestige of the 8C and the 4C when it arrives but doesn't everyone?

Agreed - they'd have to do something bloody spectacular to make me want to buy one now regardless if they're part of the VAG or FIAT group. We'll have to see what happens.

Also agree on the Giulietta and MiTo looking ugly - though I won't comment on how successful or otherwise trying to graft the front end from one car across an entire range looks The 159/Brera platform on the other hand were good looking cars if less than exciting when you got behind the wheel.

As you say Jim, thats a particularly nicely turned out V6 which only came in a handful of cars, not to say thats the only good engine they've ever made though.

definitely a non-argument but it keeps us out of mischief. Back on topic...

In terms actual total numbers your right probably not a huge percentage but it has been offered in various guises in around 30 different models over the years. Now replaced with a GM model

Sorry Jim. Just for you..

Have you seen under the bonnet of any Alfa made today? I'm sure their plastic has a lot more soul though.

No extra soul but its a special sort of plastic, steeped in racing heritage.

Better than a view of a spare wheel

This works for me.

VW will just fccuck it up

Brewster, thjere's always been some similarities but you are definitely turning into Clarkson in your old age

Clarkson wouldnt own a Porsche

Thanks for sparing me the horror of the 2.9 TD...!

The TwinSpark was also a classic engine. Very high BHP per cc. and it really came alive in the upper rev range.

The older Twin Cam was massively before its time.


And Alfa could even make a Boxer look nice and perform well.


I am behind the times with the newer engines, but the MultiAir is quite innovative.

I don't see how the engineering excellence of the company is a non-argument?

Sorry, I meant the non-argument was whether Alfa or Porsche had the better sporting history. It's a broader issue than that, a part of which - as you rightly say - is the engineering values of the Italian firm.

On the other hand (one of the *many* other hands): the Arna...

I wondered when some would bring the Arna up - an exercise in how to do everything wrong

You say that VW would just fccuk it up, but why? They aren't going to buy the brand to turn it into another unprofitable, bland SEAT. They know what they're doing. They'd give Alfa the parts bin, a big cash injection and a good degree of artistic licence. They're not going to interfere with the looks of an Alfa because that's pretty much all that makes an Alfa these days. That's certainly more than FIAT can give right now.

The three differences between me and Clarkson are that I have better hair, I like 911s, and I can actually say the stuff he'd love to if he wasn't on the telly.

Exactly the problem. They'd give them 'carte blanche' but would have to use the headlights of a Golf, the bonnet of an Ibiza, the seats of a Lupo (leftovers, remember) and the wheels of an A2.

Better Hair

Looks like Alfa managed without VW's help. And Mito? Name's as gormless sounding as the car looks.

Yeah but that's a Ford Ka (The Mito) as is the 500, all cars are terribly inbred these days... Money saving and economics. Bet the next round from Stutters will have A3 underpinnings.