One reason I called for this vote because I strongly believe they do represent the nations position. There's only one common interest and that's history. Other than that we are all different. In this group we have; bus drivers, teachers, exMOD, Police, solicitors, ex-mayor, car park assistant, carpenters, students and the elderly to list just a few. Surely that a broad range.

My question to them if they had to vote again tomorrow which way would they vote. There's no reason for them to lie.

I'm not suggesting they were lying, simply that they don't represent how the nation as a whole voted. Either some of them have changed their minds (but you don't have the pre-referendum data) or there is another factor that you haven't discovered that predisposes them to a leave vote.
It's interesting, but incomplete!

The common interest in history already distorts the view - very possibly people who think of the "good old days" and are generally backward looking. It's hardly representative. The cycling commuting forum I'm part of voted 80% Remain. Very broad cross-section of people and politics originating from different parts of the country. The view is distorted because many cycling commuters are city-based.

I also wish people would stop saying about putting the "Great" back into Britain. The size of Britain hasn't changed. I'm sure the people of Great Somerford and the people of Little Somerford understand.

Especially as it actually comes from the French:

Bretagne = Brittany

Garande Bretagne = Greater Brittany = Great Britain.

So we could have a day off for a foreign saint and put the French back into our name. A good deal of us are foreigners anyway.

Chris Bryant MP sums it up nicely:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/..._n_9097614.html

Each person was asked to cast a vote IN or OUT as they all did last week, only difference we're one week on. It was up to the individual to decide for themselves which way they wanted to vote as they did last week. Even though my small but still a National vote had been taken as a new vote on the referendum it would clearly show a large swing towards leaving. I could say out of the 112 votes I had a 100% turn out. Which makes me think if we had a 100% turn out last week would my result represent that vote.

Comments regarding history distorts the view and "good old days" is far from the truth. Only comment that could be made is History shapes the future.

Understand some would like to change this result, maybe they should try to understand why 17+ million voted to leave.

As I wrote before, it's now time to move on and work together. As I will do to make this work. I voted IN I'm now over what happen last week and now look to the future, not to the past.

History shapes the future fits the rearward look.

I'm all for working together to move on. I'm looking to the 17 million to help me understand their thinking so I can now understand their plan and help them execute it. The trouble is, there doesn't seem to be a plan. And, there seems to be 17 million different ideas of what is going to happen. The other (just shy of 17 million) are looking to them to help point the way.

I've known a few over the years and I'd say that they do like a bit of history... Their vote would surely have to be swayed somewhat...

If you're all re-enacters why is anyone surprised they opted to go back in time.

Jonny you're wrong.

Surely by wanting to remain you have based that on past EU events (history) it can't be on future event because they haven't happened. To leave you are looking to the future.

Look back over EU history, see how it's developed and which direction it's heading. Do you want this country to be a state of the EU or ..........?

I'm not in a position to formulate a plan for the future of the UK or EU, only plan I have relates to my business and it's current 70% share of that market. How to maintain that figure with the hope to build a greater share.

I fully understand how the EU works this has been built up over 20 years dealing with them.

I've got nothing further to say on this matter as there isn't any right or wrong answer just individual opinions. Lets go back to using this site for the purpose it was set up for.

But this is the bit that frustrates me about this is that no-one will give any idea of how this will work. We seem to have voted for change for changes sake.

People then dip out of the discussion.

This forum is the General Chat forum - this is what it's for.

When people voted in they voted into the EEU, not a European parliament, court and potential army. It's gone from an economic union to trying to create a united States of Europe.

From asking the last generations, that is why many voted out. I dont know any of the biggoty types interviewed on TV it seems, although I guess their answer would be known before the question was asked.

Plenty of people have chosen to leave because they want to go back to a 'golden' age. Plenty of people have chosen to remain because of history as you rightly state. We can't go back to the 'golden' age (IMO) but we can keep many things as they are and try to change the bits that aren't quite right from within the EU.

It's frustrating that these things always end with 'nothing further to say' etc. Although I'd imagine there'd be some of that if it was the other way round.

Jonny. The reason these things end with "nothing further to say" is because you can't win an argument on "social media".

People jump on threads to make their point, which may or may not be valid to you, but it might be valid to someone else so you defend your argument and then defend it slightly to that other person until you feel you can't keep going or you get cross but don't want to swear and rant. Easier to say no more and go swear at the missus (Mr) about the idiots on the car forum.

Or explain yourself further! And have a debate about it, it's important...

I'd just like one person set out their detailed views of what they thought they were voting for - and not in a "jam tomorrow" way saying things like "freedom to decide" and "take back control" but specifics, squaring the circle of free trade and free movement of people. I would also like to know what laws & regulations we're going to change (for the better).

I even promise not to argue with it - I'd just like to see that at least someone thought this through properly before setting fire to the bridge.

MRS - I'll try. Rememember I don't necessarily subscribe to these views but perhaps unlike you I do understand them ! Go back to last Thursday and convince yourself that you firmly believe that Brussels is slowly eroding your influence over the law making in this country, your vote for a party's manifesto no longer guarantees that resulting policies can't be vetoed by Europe.

Further convince yourself that you are really really annoyed that your grandchildren can't get in the best local schools because either well heeled people buy their kids a place or you see the classrooms full of the children of immigrants.

Now I suspect that you are.probably quite well off but convince yourself that you actually earn a bit more than minimum wage and have just lost your job but you have landed an interview but all the other candidates are Polish and are willing to work for a lot less than the job you just lost.

So I could go on, convince yourself that you want to buy a house for the first time in your area. Think of the obstacles.

So on that Thursday what do you vote for in detail ? You don't know because the best anyone offered , or that you yourself may believe is perhaps the Australian way of controlling immigration, the best anyone offered was to spend £350m per week on improving the health service and housing and schools. No one told you in detail how they'd achieve this and as as sure as hell you don't know the rules for the European Trade area or how they might affect you if you vote out. But you do know this vote might change something because your last 3 votes at the general election did fccuk all so why not ?

I think there was insufficient detail given to voters during the campaign for anyone to answer your question, the polititians didn't know so how could the voters ? This is one instance of the turkeys for once voting to opt out of Christmas because they didn't like it.

Make of these thoughts what you will but I challenge you to put yourself in their shoes.

An excellent post, Downhillyryder and spot on in many respects. It explains why a lot of Labour voters abandoned the party as they feel it has moved to represent middle class real-ale socialists, more concerned with being multicultural than protecting traditional working class communities and jobs for British workers. Again, like you, I don't necessarily subscribe to the view, but I recognise it is there. There has been an article doing the rounds from the Trump campaign people saying that facts are useless in a campaign like this referendum - emotional connection is all. How right they were.

Sadly, as I said repeatedly before the referendum, I had no problem with people voting leave if they were doing it to achieve something they were genuinely being offered and understood what that was. It seems that almost nobody understood what the result would mean. On either side.

I did say I was leaving the discussion and meant it because there was a result and I do feel it has to be accepted - we are a democracy and the electorate voted. However, as you have requested, MRS, I'll give some explanation from my perspective.

My main concern was democracy and the way it was being taken away by the EU through the system that has been created whereby the actual decision makers are not elected or accountable and cannot be removed by the population of the EU - at least in the UK we have a chance to change them every 5 years. I don't agree with the comparison made by some between the EU commissioners and the House of Lords - the Lords provide a checks and balances role and do not form the regulation by themselves, the EU commissioners do form the regulation. Whilst I haven't managed to find it as a spoken quote from him, it was reported this week that Martin Schultz, President of the European Parliament stated "The British have violated the rules. It is not the #EU philosophy that the crowd can decide its fate" - if true that shows the contempt with which the EU leaders regard the population they want to control and I certainly don't want to be part of that. So the plan there is to ensure that the voice of the UK population is heard by the decision makers.

In terms of economic policy it is quite clear from the global changes that have taken place this week in markets and currencies that the UK makes a difference worldwide. We are a strong economy with a lot of resources and capabilities. The ability to use those on a global basis has been hampered by trade deals which the EU has and has not made as we can only do what the EU trade deals allow. Without those the UK can do trade deals wherever it wants which includes countries such as India and Australia where the EU have never bothered to set up deals. There is no reason why we can't continue to trade with all EU countries. As has repeatedly been pointed it we are a net importer from the EU so they genuinely do need us more than we need them. I live and work in an area of the UK which does receive grant support from the EU but even taking the lower estimate of the net contribution we have made to the EU we would have £140m per week to spend as we want rather than as the EU dictate. Whether that goes to the NHS, industry or other use it is a large sum to support the UK economy. The plan there is to use the resources we have to become a global player, building on the strengths we have as "large Britain" (thanks Jim, but I did include exactly that in my Facebook post last Friday morning).

Immigration was not an issue for me, possibly due to personal situation, but I acknowledge it is for some. The plan for that was clearly laid out by the leave campaign and involves an Australian style points system. With that the needs of the country can be met by people with the required skills from anywhere in the world, numbers being managed through the points required. My knowledge of this is limited but I don't see logic in open borders allowing anyone in, but fully recognise the need for immigration to meet specific needs.

As an overall caveat to this, I am not a politician and therefore not the one to create this plan, but I have confidence in the capability of the UK to prosper independently of the EU. As have some business leaders I respect. Edited to add I do expect that there will be some short term difficulties economically from the decision, although the market recovery indicates these will not be as bad as expected, particularly by the "experts". I also expect that over the long term we will benefit. It will never be possible to accurately say what difference it has made, but if I didn't think we would gain I may have voted differently - personal opinion but that is what it was, based on a lot of reading and information gathering. I will also just add, it was not about self interest for me, I have a house in Brittany (the small one) and do recognise my decision may make owning and visiting it more complex, but I'm prepared to pay that price.

So, whilst I may not have convinced you I would appreciate a reply with the plan you had for continued membership other than carry on as we have been, seeing the EU share of world GDP shrink as the number of member countries has grown. I promise not to argue with that either, but am genuinely interested to know what that plan was and if it did include becoming the United States of Europe with a single European legal system, currency, army and much else for all member states.

Cribbed from another forum but may give folk another perspective on immigration...

I'm a comfortably off member of the middle class, not rich, but comfortable. Whether we're in or out of the EU makes very little difference to me financially. However, if you are a member of the unskilled working poor in many parts of the country then the uncontrolled immigration has a material affect on your life. The wages of the jobs you can do are depressed by the large pool of young hard working migrants. If you manage to get promoted ahead of the better educated migrant, the chances are the wage will barely increase. Your rent (no chance of affording to buy) has been pushed up because of the demand for housing by the migrants. Landlords can up rents because 10 young men squeezed into a house can pay a lot more than a family. When I go into a doctor's surgery, I can usually split it between old people and young mothers with kids. Many of the recent migrants have started families and this is the reason why our birthrate has reversed it long term decline. In some areas, particularly in Eastern England, this sudden increase in children has outstripped the capacity of local doctors and schools to cope easily leading to a poorer service for all.

These are the people affected by one aspect of EU membership and it's pretty clear when you look at the areas that voted Leave most enthusiastically. For the chatting classes, the availability of migrant labour has been a boon, cheap plumbers, builders and nannys, whilst their BTL investments have given great returns thanks to demand outstripping supply.

Simply not acknowledging that large scale uncontrolled migration has downsides for many in society is the mistake made by the Labour Party, and they are going to get hammered for it in the next election. The referendum should have been a wake up call, however seeing some of the recent comments, many still haven't got it.

As for all the cataclysmic warnings about the economy, most of those who made the warnings are rowing back rather rapidly and now saying it won't be too bad after all once the shock wears off. No sign of George Osbourne as his 'Brexit Budget', even Sajid Javid ducked the question about when that would be. The lower pound will boost export as it did after the ERM exit.

Indeed, very well put the last few posts.

Well put, Andyps.

andyps - good, thoughtful post - as I said, you can't dispute people's right to vote for the outcome they want as long as they do it on an informed basis. You have clearly done that. I didn't see your Facebook post about Grande Bretagne, so forgive me for teaching my grandmother to suck oeufs.
I don't have any property in Brittany any more, but I do have my children there, so I'd be quite keen to retain links with the place, too.

TbirdX, the post you re-posted is all very well, but I'm not sure some of the points are based on fact; for instance the statistics I saw showed that immigrant families were less likely to start families than indigenous ones. Not sure who is right, but it does seem to be based on the poster's own interpretation of what he sees.

In any case, the immigration argument may well prove to be a red herring for reasons that have been gone over before. If we end up with an Australian-style points system, then it might satisfy those looking for reduced immigration - we will see. Possibly.

Personally, I don't accept that the EU represents an erosion of democracy for the citizens of the UK. On any issue that matters sufficiently, the UK could refuse to implement it and has done so in the past. Statistics will argue over the number of laws the UK has implemented due to the EU and how ludicrous or otherwise they are, but that's what statistics do.
The EU may go on to become a giant superstate or a United States of Europe, but I don't believe it will. Either way, we will have zero influence over its fate now, so even if it does, then maybe it will be because we resigned our responsibility to make it something better.

Once the dust settles (and presuming Lord Heseltine's idea of Parliament rejecting the deal negotiated doesn't occur), then I will do my best to make a contribution to a successful non-EU Britain.

Thanks for the posts. This is the only way people will make it work, by discussing the issues. I feel passionate about it for various reasons. However the big one is our economy. I've seen the effects over the years that recessions and other economic issues cause.





I agree completely.

It shouldn't be a political issue, but of course it will be. I'm just waiting for the politicians to completely this up as much as they can. I believe it will take a very long time for it to be put in place (if ever), and it will probably be a huge compromise. I don't think it'll be what many Out voters voted for.

Whilst this all happens we will suffer, especially those on lower incomes. The assurance by many that it will be worth it in the long run doesn't provide me with much comfort.

Lies damn lies and statistics Jim.

The underlying point is well made though I believe.

Now we are getting somewhere - thanks for the excellent posts.

@downhillryder - I do absolutely understand the position of those people and I do understand what they thought they would get by voting out - believe me. That's not what I'm really after - unless that's all there is. What I want to understand the detailed plans that the more informed (assuming there are some) people thought they were voting for. I wanted to understand which laws and regulations were being made in the EU which were so shackling us Brits. After all, if the power is all in Brussels, why are the Scots so keen to take power from Westminster and stay in the EU? Surely there's no power in Westminster and surely the EU are the dictators now? So, I think your notional Brexit voter has voted for a solution to the wrong problem because they weren't properly informed.

My position is relatively simple. As the Brexit side points out often enough - we have a strong economy. We achieved that as part of the EU. As a country, we have some very clear "red lines": we keep the £; we keep border controls; we keep our own army. These have never been up for (serious) debate. They were used as scaremongering by the Brexit campaign. We also retain control of all of the significant levers of control in our own country: tax raising powers, NHS, planning, education - we've even devolved these to the Scots to a large extent (and there's still a load more that they/we (I live there) want). So, there are some employment regulations, environmental regs, product regs and so on, that have been ceded to Brussels but, on the whole, these aren't bad and, on the whole, they protect your notional Brexiteer. And, in the vast majority of cases, we voted for them. The stuff that might be seen as "bad" for your notional Brexiteer, such as zero-hour contracts, is mostly home-grown.

So then we come to trade. Now, throughout history, it's been pretty clear that countries with good trading relations tended not to fight each other. And countries that trade freely get wealthier. Of course the EU's percentage is getting smaller because China's is getting bigger. And why is China so successful now? Because it has finally opened up to trade. But doing business with countries like China, Japan and the USA can be difficult and a good deal of that is precisely because they don't have common regulation to us. How would I know that? Because that's my job. We might not like all of the regulation in the EU but at least they are common. We're going to have to meet most of them whether we're in or out.

Now, I think the point about the EU being slow to make trade agreements is interesting. So which country is the newest one on their list? Ah yes, the UK. Why would we want to put ourselves through that with our biggest trading partner? Not least of all because we're going to need to negotiate a trade deal whilst throwing the free movement of people into the mix..

So, immigration - the thorny topic. I totally see why your notional Brexiteer thinks closing the border is a good thing. The trouble is, by voting out, I honestly believe they are cutting their own throats. The uncertainty alone (for however long it will take: 2.5 years min up to 5 years? Or more?) is going to kill (inward) investment. During which time, the borders remain open. More people fighting for less jobs. Even after that, we actually need a lot of these people. The principle is this: the freedom grows all of the economies - all of Europe gets better off, we create more jobs and migration settles down. Now, I recognise that this will take time - but it's a virtuous circle. In the meantime, we need to do more to resolve the issues your notional Brexiteer has: NHS, education, planning, minimum wage - I've a sense of deja vu - who has control of those? Ah yes - Us Brits.

Today has been quite amazing - Boris gone, Gove having upset everybody, May, the Remainer, looking favourite to be PM - blimey. The Labour side is even more messy. It's been an unpredictable week.

Boris lead the campaign, then runs like a frightened rabbit ...... Excellent. Not heard or seen since the vote at all; now decides he's not the man and will let someone else clean up the mess.

The England football team will be mightily relieved that all of this is going on.