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Re: 16vt 1in or 25mm cam belt conversion [Re: ] #1587182
21/10/2016 17:14
21/10/2016 17:14
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,728
London
kj16v Offline
My life on the forum
kj16v  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,728
London
The balance shafts were just there to help the car feel as smooth as the 6-cylinde engines that were competing with it on the car market at the time. The 4-pot imbalance forces are all still there so the balance shafts has no impact on the longevity of the engine, other than potentially wearing out, or snapping the belt and wrecking the engine!

Re: 16vt 1in or 25mm cam belt conversion [Re: ] #1587202
22/10/2016 01:29
22/10/2016 01:29

A
Atle
Unregistered
Atle
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A



Wouldn't the balance shafts be unnecessary if the engines main moving parts (crank, flywheel, pulleys, pistons and conrods) are all weight matched and properly balanced?

Re: 16vt 1in or 25mm cam belt conversion [Re: ] #1587240
23/10/2016 10:27
23/10/2016 10:27
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Czech republic
Honza Offline
Making a profit
Honza  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Czech republic
I didn´t noticed any running imbalances when running w/o balance shafts...

I had no balance shafts long time ago in my tipo 8v... the engine runs even smoother and quiter (because of lack of the blance shaft pulleys) . on coupe I removed balance shafts from the block and blocked oil galeries - improvement in oil pressure (around 0,3-0,5bar !)..now the engine has 11 years anr runs fine even in wery high rpm (8000rpm.) next engine for my tipo is 8v block + 16V head and also has removed shafts from the block...

I wouldn´t run these shafts anymore - I disassembled many lampredi 2Ltrs with balance shafts and I wonder how the size of these shafts changed over the years... dont´run them and ideally remove them - togehther with 22/25mm belt you will improve reliability of your engine significantly! thats my advice


20 years with yellow 2.0 16v NA
22 years with black SEDICIVALVOLE

Re: 16vt 1in or 25mm cam belt conversion [Re: ] #1587241
23/10/2016 11:02
23/10/2016 11:02
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Czech republic
Honza Offline
Making a profit
Honza  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 221
Czech republic
so I found few photos and some text regarding to wide crank pulley from JTD/TS:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xlrTA0IzaYBr-4pJhwicE4B0bzaOgnt1CiBqjMoFgr8/edit?usp=sharing

hope, the file wirk work..


20 years with yellow 2.0 16v NA
22 years with black SEDICIVALVOLE

Re: 16vt 1in or 25mm cam belt conversion [Re: ] #1588345
11/11/2016 13:01
11/11/2016 13:01

H
Hoops82
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Hoops82
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Good info, thanks Honza. Most helpful for the thread.

On the subject of balance shaft removal, that is not the purpose of this thread and there are many texts and papers on the subject.
I would just like have a quick rant soapbox because, for me, balance shaft removal is a very lazy un-engineered and rather agricultural solution to a fairly simple desire to change other components.

I can assure you that balance shafts are neither unique to the lampredi, nor only there for the sales man on the showroom floor to talk about smoothness of the engine. They are found in all engine configurations from twins through straight 6's to V8's as well as gas turbines but are prevalent in equal number in line designs. They still exist in the modern age but are less prevalent owing to more controlled combustion and feedback processes rather than a question of reciprocating component balance. In fact, 2nd order harmonics have little to nothing to do with components being out of balance and almost everything to do with the crank shaft big end journal configuration choice, i.e. firing order and combustion chamber design (combustion harmonics).

Their (balance shaft) purpose is to reduce, dampen and eliminate torsional and 2nd order harmonics (in the case of equal number engines) particularly in the horizontal plane of the engine perpendicular to the axial plane of the crank shaft.

Without going into too much detail, it is a mathematical fact that they lengthen component life particularly of the con rods by reducing the eigenvector stresses associated with lateral loading and therfore lowering the damage ratio per cycle and lengthen the fatigue life. It is fairly complex to model involving fourier transforms of eigenvectors to accurately place dynamic loading from an ever shifting center of mass due to precession of virtual axis.

No doubt, many people remove them and get on fine. But having run simulations and designs involving balance shafts (not for our beloved Lampredi i should say), I will never be convinced by anything other than a model showing their in-effectiveness. (happy to concede if someone will send me a fatigue cycle calculation involving the specs of the lampredi)

Obviously, as we modify our engines we must make design compromises to the life of the engine for increased performance. However, in the case of balance shafts, the gain is effectively Zero for a significant increase in risk factor. I would liken it to grinding off the paintwork of your car and taking the rapid corrosion that would result in account for a saving of a few grams in weight.

I do concede the point about balance shaft snapping being a risk though KJ, have experienced that on a recent Alfa type939 frown

Anyway, Rant over. The point of the thread is to help us find a cheap and cost effective solution to increasing the cam belt strength whilst maintaining the original reciprocating mass engine design. For those who don't wish to remove the belts (we may be few!). coat

A thread on balance shaft removal merits could be started separately if people wish to discuss that. rotate rotate

Last edited by Hoops82; 11/11/2016 13:11.
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