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Re: went on the rollers today #214739
16/10/2006 14:39
16/10/2006 14:39

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I understand the "what if" theory better than most but seriously those curves look fantastic - almost immediate torque that never tails off, peaks or spikes, and a steady building of power to the redline, suggesting that your turbo and ancillaries are all perfectly matched in your setup (at least to my amateur eye). Really looks ideal to me and must be fantastic to drive.

Re: went on the rollers today #214740
16/10/2006 14:47
16/10/2006 14:47

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Quote:

OK I have extrapolated the torque and bhp curves from your graph and converted to a flywheel standard (17% loss) so that everyone has a better understanding of what it all means especially in comparison to other coupés

h2ypr's graph...

Well that is some seriously impressive low down torque there Ross! Short of the hybrid turbos or nitrous, nothing comes even close to that spool up and torque delivery. The 28R coupled with headwork certainly appears to be doing the trick




fccuk me that's good! what are your mods again?

Re: went on the rollers today #214741
16/10/2006 16:26
16/10/2006 16:26

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gt28r, headwork, evo 6 fmic, 3" turbo back custom exhaust system etc.

Im gonna stick the Gtech1 in on sunday i think. Barbz said if im running well rich then the gtech1 will take enough off to get to nearer the 350bhp mark. I want 300bhp at the wheels and from speaking to certain people, i think its perfectly attainable on my setup.

Ross

Re: went on the rollers today #214742
16/10/2006 16:31
16/10/2006 16:31

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On my recent RR run, they tried the standard chip, GTEC1 and GTEC1 HF. The standard chip fuelled "best" apparently (unfortunately I don't have AFR graphs) and was still rich (down to 10.6). This was at low boost (due to a knackered clutch).

Re: went on the rollers today #214743
16/10/2006 18:23
16/10/2006 18:23
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Staffordshire
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you'll struggle to get 350bhp on a GT28R and if you DO get near it, you'll probably lose a load of torque, which will make the car feel slower to drive

Stay with what you've got - its probably as quick on the road as a 350+ bhp GT28RS-equipped Coupe

I'd LOVE a torque curve like that!


[Linked Image]
Re: went on the rollers today #214744
16/10/2006 18:33
16/10/2006 18:33

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I can't stop looking at that damn graph!

Re: went on the rollers today #214745
16/10/2006 19:55
16/10/2006 19:55

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Come on Flea, lets get the spaghetti chart of all the cars up!!

and can you bung on the turbos beside the names please :-)

Joe

Re: went on the rollers today #214746
16/10/2006 20:16
16/10/2006 20:16

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Quote:

Quote:

Well, i think with the proper misture i could have NEAR unichip performance without the price tag!

Ross




Ross

Simple bit of advice, you have spent so long without the car, dont scrimp and save on the last important bit. Do it once, do it right, get a custom map instead of relying on a simple P'n'P chip




Utterly agree with Begbie here. Stop messing about and get it mapped properly!

You don't need Cams, or a chargecooler, or aquamist map on your set up - spend the money on mapping. I have none of these + a spec very similar to yours - and I can get 344bhp at 1.3 bar - overboosting to 1.35 (more boost gave me only a tiny gain), so I doubt pushing it to 1.5 bar midrange with help you much. I run 1.15 bar at redline.

Looking at your graph your car peaks at 6,000 and then flatlines to the redline. You could build more I would have thought.

Coops dont generally run well into the 12's fuelling wise. My car runs 11.5 - the extra fuel can be used to run more advance and get more power on a custom map.

here's my graph to compare a mapped vs unmapped car with a very similar spec for ease of reference:

torque:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/perfectmap2.jpg

Power:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/perfectmap1.jpg

Worth noting that your car is well ahead until over 5,250 rpm. Not sure why your torque drops off like that - or why it builds so damn well!

Re: went on the rollers today #214747
16/10/2006 21:58
16/10/2006 21:58

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It drops so much due to overfuelling!!!! Been in contact with Graham L and Barbz and we have a plan of action. Watch this space for my results from Sundays Rolling Road session.

Ross

Re: went on the rollers today #214748
16/10/2006 22:44
16/10/2006 22:44

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good job Ross.
.

Re: went on the rollers today #214749
16/10/2006 22:46
16/10/2006 22:46

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Quote:

good job Ross.
.




Thanks.

Ross

Re: went on the rollers today #214750
17/10/2006 02:49
17/10/2006 02:49

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Been looking at my graph again.

http://www.fiat-coupe.info/images/rr_results/h2ypr.gif

The point at just after 3000rpm that the torque stops harshly rising, is the point on my old graph (before my engine blew) where the gtech2 is dumping loads of fuel in for when boost is comming in. Also when the torque drops later in the rev range, is where the boost is stop being held till and the fuelling is increased to deal with the higher revs. I reckpn fueling is seriously holding me back on this.

Ross

Re: went on the rollers today #214751
17/10/2006 11:54
17/10/2006 11:54

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LOL, yeah that's like SO holding you back. Chuck the graph in the bin and go out for a drive.

Re: went on the rollers today #214752
17/10/2006 15:16
17/10/2006 15:16
Joined: Dec 2005
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Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
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I personally dont think the fuelling is holding you back, people say that overfuelling too much can be a drop in 20 bhp, but has anyone actually proved it on here? Not that i can recall, i also have my power graphs at home showing what happens when you run exteremly lean (like 1.06 on the lamda value) and still make the same bhp as you do with the correct fuelling.

The reason the torque drops could be anything from smaller exhaust housing, exhaust manifold, not enough lift on the valves, cams etc...


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: went on the rollers today #214753
17/10/2006 15:46
17/10/2006 15:46
Joined: Dec 2005
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Drakelow
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Agreed the GT28R is probably at the end of its effeciency island.Even on larger units the general trend is that torque starts to drop after 6,000 rpms which suggest the restriction lies elsewhere. My opinion on messing with the fuelling will mean you'll ending up blowing the engine by running lean. Running rich gives a degree of safety and this can never be a bad thing

Jamie


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Re: went on the rollers today #214754
17/10/2006 16:06
17/10/2006 16:06

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h2ypr, I've been looking at your RR printout with some detail.

It is worth noting that this was a cold power run, and that they loaded up the rollers quite high.

What that means, is that the resistance of the rollers was high to acceleration so the RR run was longer than most.
By doing this ,it will artificially give you greater spool up, a bit like accelerating in 5th gear, rather than 3rd, when you will see noticeable torque/accelreation far earlier in the rev range.
It also means that the car will be on boost for longer and this explains the higher than expected charge temperature readings.

So with being a different rolling road, and the high loading, its hard to make comparative assessment to other RR's.

@Begbie,.. I was losing 20bhp due to running too rich at one of my PTS remaps,.. got all the graphs to prove it as well

However, I do agree, that you are taking quite a risk, for a very small gain here, you don't have any other form of protection, and whuilst it might be ok, in the colder weather ,come thrashing about in summer, you could end up with a dead engine ...just be careful, you really are better with a unichip,... I know about the cost, but you are at a cost and tuning level that justifies it.

Joe

Re: went on the rollers today #214755
17/10/2006 16:19
17/10/2006 16:19

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Right here is the bombshell.

Unichip is not suited for the Fiat Coupe, hence i will never get one fitted.

The ECU has like 20 fuelling maps, and the unichip only changes one of these. As Nigel has found out, any variation in standard running and the ECU changes to a different map to maintain running.

Having spoke to 2 different Rolling Roads who dont supply unichips, they say that using a plug and play chip, which works in accordance with the ecu, is a better option than the unichip.

The said the next step up is something like DTA or a MOTEC.

Marcus aint running a unichip, and look at the power he has.

Its just not for me im afraid. After hearing horror stories about Dastek, i'll try this method.

@ Doctorfrag

Your right, both the Rolling Road, Graham L and Barbz all agreed that knocking the fueling down slightly will produce extra power. Im not gonna take it above 11.5 afr midrange, so that i can allow for higher at the redline.

Ross

Last edited by h2ypr; 17/10/2006 16:21.
Re: went on the rollers today #214756
17/10/2006 16:39
17/10/2006 16:39
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Castle Combe
Ross, I don't know why you are so spooked by the Unichip but your understanding of how it works is not quite right. There are a large number of coupes running with a Unichip, some for many years, all without issue and most importantly correct fueling. If like most you also decide to keep tuning then you will need to be able to modify your fueling to accomodate, the Unichip is ideal for this situation.

Nigel's issues are due to running larger injectors which the standard ecu cannot cope with. The Unichip has successfully allowed Nigel to run correct fueling in open loop, it is simply closed loop where the problem lies.

In an ideal world it would be better to have a perfectly mapped eprom but this is something that nobody has been able to provide up to now. Re Markus, he uses an adjustable fuel regulator to tweak fueling but ultimately also overfuels a fair bit but this is, as Jamie says, a safer option to go with as it allows you to run big boost and keep everything in check.

There are no horror stories on here relating to the Unichip... certainly not at the 300-370bhp level of tune.


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Re: went on the rollers today #214757
17/10/2006 16:57
17/10/2006 16:57
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,294
Sandhurst
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Quote:

In an ideal world it would be better to use have a perfectly mapped eprom but this something that nobody has been able to provide up to now




Has anyone actually spoken with this chap? If you read the live mapping bit im sure he could do a coupe. Actually a slight scroll down the page shows an ECU using the same style chip as the 20vt's and would imagine the cost to be less than the unichip and mapping


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: went on the rollers today #214758
17/10/2006 17:29
17/10/2006 17:29
Joined: Dec 2005
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Drakelow
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Beggars,
I asked them sometime ago and they won't touch a Coupe and unfortunately have blown certain engines whilst 'live mapping'.

Jamie


She's alive!
Re: went on the rollers today #214759
17/10/2006 17:44
17/10/2006 17:44

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I was about to say i would give them a call about their live mapping as they arent far from me or busa but ill see what they say, how long ago did you call them Jamie?

Re: went on the rollers today #214760
17/10/2006 17:49
17/10/2006 17:49
Joined: Dec 2005
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Drakelow
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Will,
It was this year and I got Busa (Kev) to follow through for me as they are very close to him.

CHeers Jamie


She's alive!
Re: went on the rollers today #214761
17/10/2006 18:06
17/10/2006 18:06

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http://60gp.ovh.net/~motorspo/pages/Livemappingextract.htm

Just spoke to a guy called Stuart and he at least knew it was a Bosch Motronic unit and he has done a 16vt before now as well.
The link above kind shows what they do but he said youd be looking at about £350 or less if there are no cold start issues and about a day of labour or less. I talked to him about the Gtecs and agreed it would be better to bring along one or two as the better the base map the easier it would be for them to map ontop of but he sounded confident it could be done and that they had done other 5cylinders before, presumably the T5/2.5T units and the like.

Think i will give them a try when i get my coop back and the moola together

Re: went on the rollers today #214762
17/10/2006 18:16
17/10/2006 18:16

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The pics on that site show what i am certain is an ECU very very like the coops one, probably from another car though but certainly near identical to what we have.

Re: went on the rollers today #214763
17/10/2006 20:15
17/10/2006 20:15

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Quote:

Agreed the GT28R is probably at the end of its effeciency island.Even on larger units the general trend is that torque starts to drop after 6,000 rpms which suggest the restriction lies elsewhere. My opinion on messing with the fuelling will mean you'll ending up blowing the engine by running lean. Running rich gives a degree of safety and this can never be a bad thing

Jamie




Jamie - I have this turbo and if I raised the rev limit I'd get more power, despite the torque dropping off....

Re: went on the rollers today #214764
17/10/2006 20:22
17/10/2006 20:22

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Ross - you've mentioned fuelling at the top end being an issue. I got the biggest gains from my last unichip map from mapping the ignition advance rather than the fuelling - which was richer than it could have been on purpose for safety.

Do you still have the V-band adaptor for your turbo? if so then this would explain the 'restriction' at the top end.

I know barbz is not a massive fan of the unichip, rather road testing with a wide band lamda, and tweaking the fuel pressure or boost profile with an apexi - but with this method you can't control the ignition advance without guessing, asking GrahamL to do you a chip, and then plonking the car on a rolling road to see if it detonates. With a unichip you can tweak it up + then retard it by a few degrees when you hear it detting.

Re: went on the rollers today #214765
17/10/2006 22:02
17/10/2006 22:02

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Vband??????? I have a 5 stud flange onto a 3" custom downpipe. I have already got another chip from Graham L today and will be using it on sunday to check how it affects things. If it runs slightly lean then i can go back and tweak it again. If its still running "slightly" rich (i.e. around 11.5-12) then i would be happy with that as a comprimise for the moment.

Ross

Re: went on the rollers today #214766
18/10/2006 02:18
18/10/2006 02:18

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Right. Got a Gtech2 with less fuelling installed today by Graham L to test it. Drove it 1 mile from Grahams to my work. Got out my work and drove 14 miles home and im immediately noticing the difference. Car feels more responsive low down and there is no sudden surge of power at 2000rpm. The car previously was flat up to 2000rpm when it kinda kicked in more. Now its progessively accelerating up to and beyond 2000rpm. Defo feels better straight away.

Ross

Re: went on the rollers today #214767
18/10/2006 02:32
18/10/2006 02:32

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lots of advance and leaner fuelling, make sure the RR operator has det cans ... best of luck. btw, what grade fuel are you using?

Re: went on the rollers today #214768
18/10/2006 02:51
18/10/2006 02:51

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V-power - 99ron. Its all this new engine has ran on.

Ross

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