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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262227
23/12/2006 03:14
23/12/2006 03:14
Joined: Dec 2005
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Castle Combe
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Yes

Yes

Maybe



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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262228
23/12/2006 03:18
23/12/2006 03:18

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All they do is burn there own chip so in theory you could put the car back on the stock chip.But the chip you take out wont be any good on another coupe.The chip itself only costs pence its the mapping time that costs.The chip is only unique to the individual vehicle so its best to leave the chip on it.But the mapping itself is nothing short of a miracle.the final results are hard to believe.I would be surprised if you would want to sell it after its been mapped by pt.

And moving off topic Flea and Nigel how do you keep the power on the road as i am having big traction problems now,and whilst it makes fot interesting driving it doesnt do much off the lights......Have any of you tried any tc solutions .

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262229
23/12/2006 03:22
23/12/2006 03:22
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Castle Combe
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Well for traction off the lights I have an Evo VII and for ultimate speed and coolness I have the Coupé

I am definately thinking about TC though having seen how fccuking quick Barbz was around Croydon in 1st and 2nd


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262230
23/12/2006 03:25
23/12/2006 03:25

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he uses the racelogic doesnt he.Will it interfear with the live map as it alters the fuel into the injectors ,in theory giving the maximum power without applying the anchors...
Also i take it theres a modified tensioner and idler he does to avoid the belt problems...

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262231
23/12/2006 03:26
23/12/2006 03:26

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His kit is over 1k IIRC.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262232
23/12/2006 03:29
23/12/2006 03:29

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I think L and M international or whatever there called quoted me 750 to buy or 1100 fitted

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262233
23/12/2006 03:29
23/12/2006 03:29
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Barbz uses the TC in the Motec but you can get a Racelogic for around £500 which should work just as well. The RL cuts the spark based on the ABS sensors but it won't mess with the live map.


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262234
23/12/2006 03:31
23/12/2006 03:31

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I said i wouldnt spend any more money on mine ...........But i didnt promise and power is nothing without grip so which is the best and which is cheapest.I am not planning to go anymore above 320 bhp as thats quick enough for me.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262235
23/12/2006 03:42
23/12/2006 03:42
Joined: Dec 2005
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Wimbledon
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I'd imagine traction control probably saves a fair bit of wear and tear on the suspension as well...

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262236
23/12/2006 03:57
23/12/2006 03:57
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Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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I also have traction control




Its my right foot

Seriously though, I don't suffer from wheelspin in 2nd gear upwards in the wet unless I provoke it. In the dry, I just don't suffer any loss, other than if I do something silly like drop the clutch at 5,000rpm in 1st


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262237
23/12/2006 04:05
23/12/2006 04:05

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what bhp and rubber have you got nigel.I suppose driver skill beating someone is more satisfying but being beaten by a 4wd with less power isnt.And knowing that you could beat them in the dry doesnt always make things better.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262238
23/12/2006 04:24
23/12/2006 04:24

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I dont have any probs with traction in 2nd gear in the dry. Dont launch it in first, cause thats just asking for problems.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262239
23/12/2006 04:31
23/12/2006 04:31

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Quote:

I dont have any probs with traction in 2nd gear in the dry. Dont launch it in first, cause thats just asking for problems.



I know but 1st is 50% of the 0-60 time and all that power needs to be used.There must be some solution.I will find it and then i will be happy again.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262240
23/12/2006 05:03
23/12/2006 05:03

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Simple solution is to set the AVCR to use base boost in 1st and then in 2nd go up some and 3rd go up to full power

Simple way is to ensure that your tyres are decent and at a good pressure as well. in this weather i think the GSd3's on my rear are good

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262241
23/12/2006 05:05
23/12/2006 05:05

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my avcr is annoying me and me or rob couldnt see what the problem was.And the avcr wont help when cornering.also the avcr is directly taking power away from the engine which sort of defeats the object doesnt it.And its about time you made an appearance kp.I was getting worried.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262242
23/12/2006 16:38
23/12/2006 16:38
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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If you think 0-60 is the most imprtant aspect of acceleration, you have the wrong car.

I own my Coupe because out on the road, it eats up and spits out 99.5% of anything I come across.

I very rarely do full-bore starts (but a 13.0 standing quarter on Toyo Proxes at 40psi says I'm not scared to either!)

Are you using the 20VT running gear too? (i.e. Viscodrive)


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262243
23/12/2006 21:08
23/12/2006 21:08

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IIRC JBT is running the whole lot

im getting worried the AVCR unit controller is fluffed inside JBT. any chance of trying a spare one on yours or something??

Grip at the front end of a coop in 1st is always going to suffer i reckon unless u get something like the race logic system or the like. I always feel a bit sus of things that interfere with the spark or fuelling to control power as it will mean you either have petrol in the chamber not correctly ignited or you get a spark going with no fuelling in there or very little which wouldnt be good but i havent seen what an engine with either system looks like after say 40k miles and a fair few launch starts and wether it is bad for it or not.

The visco drive helps a wee bit but the best thing you can do is get some soft compound front tyres really for track days and the like

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262244
23/12/2006 22:32
23/12/2006 22:32

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Quote:

im getting worried the AVCR unit controller is fluffed inside JBT. any chance of trying a spare one on yours or something??



IIRC the stock bleed valve reduces boost in 1st.I have bypassed the stock one with the avcr.Then bypassed that with a bleed valve for the live map.this means that i am getting the same amount of boost and spool up as i would get in 2nd and 3rd etc.This rapid increase in pressure is obviously causing the problem.Unfortunatly i dont have a spare avcr to try,but i think both jimbo and nigel have one and i may be able to check it is set up correctly at the donny track event.But i fear the worst.
Nigel forget that my car is a bravo as far as the mechanicals are concerned its a coupe.Everything is.
And i do agree that the majority of the races you encounter are rolling starts but a drag is also nice now and then.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262245
27/12/2006 20:17
27/12/2006 20:17
Joined: Dec 2005
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JohnS Offline
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Quote:

I always feel a bit sus of things that interfere with the spark or fuelling to control power as it will mean you either have petrol in the chamber not correctly ignited or you get a spark going with no fuelling in there or very little which wouldnt be good but i havent seen what an engine with either system looks like after say 40k miles and a fair few launch starts and wether it is bad for it or not.





They only interrupt on a micro scale compared to the number of revolutions the engine is going through so the impact to the engine is minute. But there are multiple ways of achieving traction control which will each have a different effect

You can put out the injectors (like the RLTC does) and that is fairly harmless as the spark is only going to ignite any backflow from the exhaust ports which is negligable

You can also put out the sparkplugs which gives an anti-lag effect whereby the fuel may ignite in your exhaust manifold. The effect is that the boost stays on but the power isn't being transmitted to the wheels. This is slightly more damaging to the manifold and turbine wheel, but again at this level it isn't too bad compared to proper anti-lag

Then there is retarding boost which is what the stock ECU/EBV does - it sees a rise rate of revs that is too fast and so drops the boost to base. There's a lot to be said for the stock system as it is integrated into the ECU. It's a shame all tuning chips disable it in effect by arbitrarily setting it so high it never kicks in

Then there is retarding the ignition advance which possibly has the most gentle effect but conversely is the worst way at gaining traction as the effect is least marked. The ECU also has this integrated as its failsafe system for if it has identified another problem (e.g. det or excessive intake or water temps)

To add to all that there are also different ways of detecting slip. Racelogic uses the standard ABS sensors, whereas the Motec uses Hall sensors that are a lot more sensitive and so work better at lower rpm but at a price of fitting additional sensors instead of using stock ones.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262246
27/12/2006 21:26
27/12/2006 21:26

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Cheers john thats a hell of a write up

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262247
27/12/2006 22:42
27/12/2006 22:42

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Cheers John,thats of great benefit .
The tc really all it does is cuts power to the engine.And although i have heard great praise for the racelogic system i cang get my head around the fact that its not accurate enough to control the fueling like a map would.Therefor does this cause hot spots as there is insuficient fuelling.I mean initially i dont suppose its enough to bother about,but say you corner hard and often forcing the tc to enguage.This is at high revs and in theory should cause problems.So am i just better getting a ebv like the Apexi which will control the boost in the gears differently.As this may be safer for the engine and more accurate for the fuelling.And if anyone can shed light as to why mine doesnt work that would be very nice..

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262248
28/12/2006 00:14
28/12/2006 00:14
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
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Well as long as it is putting the injectors out then it doesn't matter what revs you won't get a hotspot, in fact you will get a moment of cooling in the combustion chamber as the compressed air is not combusted.

If we had a very weak crank I suppose it could do something to that (ie. uneven load on the crank) but in reality no one has ever broken a 20VT crank that I know of.

AVCR is a good way to go to be honest, and on my car I use something quite similar built into my engine management such that in the dry I never get any wheelspin, and in the wet I generally run base boost as that's still around 320BHP
WHat I would like to make lateral-load related control of boost such that if I am pulling a large lateral load my boost is dropped. I know how to achieve it, just don't have the time to do it at the mo'.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262249
28/12/2006 04:18
28/12/2006 04:18

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based on this recent conversation i have chosen to go for the tc system and have just purchased one.
I now have a post in the technical page.
If anyone has fitted one then any help would be appreciated...

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262250
28/12/2006 05:01
28/12/2006 05:01

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Quote:



If we had a very weak crank I suppose it could do something to that (ie. uneven load on the crank) but in reality no one has ever broken a 20VT crank that I know of.







Actually... my first engine (before i owned the car) had a broken crankshaft..

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262251
28/12/2006 16:57
28/12/2006 16:57
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
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probably that it was worn on the journals beyond the undersize rather than broke in two as it is pretty bulletproof.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262252
28/12/2006 17:48
28/12/2006 17:48

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Quote:

probably that it was worn on the journals beyond the undersize rather than broke in two as it is pretty bulletproof.




Not sure as it wasnt me that owned it but was also told the conrod went through the block and one of the pistons went topside.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262253
29/12/2006 21:22
29/12/2006 21:22
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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sounds like a rod bolt went

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262254
30/12/2006 04:33
30/12/2006 04:33

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I must admit i worked for fiat for nearly 4 years and never saw 1 20vt engine fail due to mechanical failure.
1 was because the chap run it out of oil,1 was because it was run out of water,1 came from factory with low compression and 1 i did the cambelt and a week later the idler failed.
And grinding all 20 valves in by hand was not fun..
That was before the days of the oscillating valve grinders..
So i would agree with the comment that the lumps are bombproof.
If a failure happends its probably down to lack of maintenance,bad repairs or people modding them without knowing what there doing.

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289816
05/02/2007 03:41
05/02/2007 03:41

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Okay i have had a few extra goodies fitted since the live map...
I hear alot about Owen developments but pt did the first map and said they should be able to get another 30 bhp.
After my ordeal i feel pt is a no no ,once bitten and all..
Plus my ecu was held in with 4 nuts and after pt mapped it i found a rattle which was caused by them throwing away 2 of the nuts and putting the ecu back on pi55ed up.
Frustrating as i said i would take the glove box out to make it easier but obviously bodging it back up was easier for them.

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289828
05/02/2007 03:50
05/02/2007 03:50

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 Originally Posted By: johnnybravoturbo
Okay i have had a few extra goodies fitted since the live map...
I hear alot about Owen developments but pt did the first map and said they should be able to get another 30 bhp.
After my ordeal i feel pt is a no no ,once bitten and all..
Plus my ecu was held in with 4 nuts and after pt mapped it i found a rattle which was caused by them throwing away 2 of the nuts and putting the ecu back on pi55ed up.
Frustrating as i said i would take the glove box out to make it easier but obviously bodging it back up was easier for them.


Hate to say it dude but i think your path lies with PT. Go back and speak to them about your concerns and see what they say.

Ross

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