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Perfect touch live map results #262167
20/12/2006 05:46
20/12/2006 05:46

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Got there about 9.30.Waited in reception for 15-20 mins and then Rob and Claudio briefly told me the plan of action and then took the keys.
After driving the car onto the rollers,Rob then came into the reception and told me they wont touch the car as its leaking oil everywhere .
And with the recent engine damage caused by the belts shearing they werent going to take any chances.
This was worrying as im 130 miles from home and didnt know where it was coming from.So Rob then went to get it off the rollers and ripped the front bumper off .You know the one i had to get specially made in scunthorpe. .Anyway they told me straight away and said they would pay for the replacement one.
We then put it on the ramp and found the oil was everywhere.I then remembered i had just replaced the oil and filter.
Claudio then remembered that Barbz had said they sometimes leak if there not done up rock tight.We tweeked the filter and then steamed it clean.Topped it up with oil and then left it to run.Once rob had seen it was now okay he then took it back onto the rollers.It was now 1.00.I waited in the office where i heard several dyno runs take place.Rob then came into the office and said theres a problem with the boost and a problem with the thermostat as its open all the time and therefor he couldnt map it due to it being in cold mode.
We then clamped off the rad hose,fitted a bleed valve and bypassed the avcr as we were running out of time.Not a good start.
He then said the stock figures which were:-
269 bhp @6500rpm with 252 ib ft torque peak.
after another couple of hours and a few more runs he then mapped the chip.
The sound in the office was really impressive.And the difference in sound between the 2 runs was hard to believe.
Rob then came back with a huge smile on his face saying that he cant believe how good the turbo is and its spool up is the best he had seen.
He then gave me the new figures:-
305bhp@6000rpm and 302 ibs torque peak.
This at the moment was all he would do until the thermostat and ebv have been sorted but he said that it will reach 320-330bhp no probs next time.
he then took it for a spin and came back with a big grin.He then said Fccuk me thats quick and that i have some major traction problems.He was well impressed with the result.
The drive home was foggy,raining and i couldnt see a thing but the power delivery and how smooth it is now cannot be put into words.The idle speed and cutting out problems i had are now sorted and the engine runs so much better.It is so much more refined that before.The power is instant and pins you back in all gears.
We had a bad day but the end result was what counted.I would reccommend this to anyone,its the biggest impact in terms of tuning for the money.Its a completely different car now.Drives great and even torque steers in 5th.So quick that it broke the speedo on the way back.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262168
20/12/2006 05:52
20/12/2006 05:52

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Good news there bar the bumper and initial oil leak. hopefully this wasnt the motul stuff you were burning away matey

Im going to give them a ring if i can before xmas as id love it if they can map my LPG system as well but got to see if they will let it on the rollers knowing there is a dribble from the crank seal and it not being that much either...

Good work there Johnny more to come i guess hey

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262169
20/12/2006 05:56
20/12/2006 05:56

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Quote:

Good news there bar the bumper and initial oil leak. hopefully this wasnt the motul stuff you were burning away matey



Yes it was mate i was well annoyed.It used 1.5 precious litres
One thing i would say is that i would of liked them to explain what they were doing more but we were well behind considering the days events.All in all,there work speaks the loudest,i was unsure of it before but i will definately go back again.Im speechless ,cant believe the difference.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262170
20/12/2006 06:05
20/12/2006 06:05

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sounds good! im gonna be booking in after christmas with anyluck!!

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262171
20/12/2006 06:42
20/12/2006 06:42

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Get it done,the difference is huge from how they were before the map....I saw N18ELO there as well.I dont thing everything went to well for Nigel yesterday.It was good for me though as i swapped loads of bits over to mine .Only joking looks good in my favourite colour.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262172
20/12/2006 07:37
20/12/2006 07:37

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So what mods you got?

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262173
20/12/2006 16:22
20/12/2006 16:22
Joined: Dec 2005
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Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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yet again, its good to hear a great result from the Coupe's new mapping guru

Glad to hear they sorted your problems - probably explains why they didn't get to do much work on mine yesterday

Hoping mine will be a quick fix - I'm already a bit bored of 1.6 Honda power - still, its a whole lot better than walking


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262174
20/12/2006 16:22
20/12/2006 16:22
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,194
Göteborg, Sweden
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Göteborg, Sweden
From Cardomain:

Fiat Bravo 2.0 20 valve Turbo
Welcome to my domain.You are viewing my ink black Fiat Bravo.Originally it was a Bravo HGT.After 6 months of work and a donor Fiat Coupe its now fitted with the engine that it always should of had from factory.It currently has:-

Hybrid superspool turbo
uprated walbro fuel pump with wiring relay mod
Novitec ecu chip
Aquamist water injection
Uprated front mount aluminum intercooler
Samco custom intercooler pipes
Uprated front mount oil cooler
Coupe radiator
Brembo brakes
Full decat blueflame exhaust system
17 inch AEI lightweight japaneese wheels
Apexi AVCR boost controller
Unichip and full custom remap(next mod) <---- I think this is done now
Coupe gearbox with viscous couplings
Boost,oil and voltage in car guages in custom pillar pod
Turbo timer
Shift light Warning syste


Coupé Fiat 20V Turbo Plus 1999, T19 Mitsubishi turbo
https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: Perfect touch live map results #262175
20/12/2006 17:00
20/12/2006 17:00
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Nice results John It's never straight forward but I guess that's all part of the fun What boost did you run on the bleed valve and how does Rob reckon he'll get an extra 20bhp, ignition timing? I don't think anyone has managed to flow more than 300bhp on the Superspool so you are entering new territory if you can take it to the next level


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262176
20/12/2006 17:05
20/12/2006 17:05
Joined: Dec 2005
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JimO Offline
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Quote:

I don't think anyone has managed to flow more than 300bhp on the Superspool




Apart from me, JamieS and Gouki

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262177
20/12/2006 17:17
20/12/2006 17:17
Joined: Dec 2005
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Sorry JimO... more than 305bhp

P.S. Got any graphs John?


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262178
20/12/2006 19:18
20/12/2006 19:18

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Flea i made 313.2 bhp ( .2 being very important on my superspool turbo and that was before i hade the pro alloy intercooler. Actually you plotted the graphs for me.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262179
20/12/2006 19:24
20/12/2006 19:24
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313bhp is quite high for the superspool,is that with water injection too ?

With cams and mapping done by Rob I managed 301bhp and I think others are around this figure too. What rolling road did you use just out of interest ?

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262180
20/12/2006 19:50
20/12/2006 19:50
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Quote:

Flea i made 313.2 bhp ( .2 being very important on my superspool turbo and that was before i hade the pro alloy intercooler. Actually you plotted the graphs for me.




Lol... did I? Well that's a great result with the superspool, nice one


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262181
20/12/2006 20:07
20/12/2006 20:07

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i will give the figures if someone fancies doing a graph for me
This was done without the aquamist as im having a few probs with the flow.
Rob also found a slight air leak around the jet pipe which again caused the initial low rr figures.
Rob was very impressed with the cars spool up and said that when im back in the new year we should get 320-330 hopefully when i sort the thermostat and the avcr out.But im tempted to go for trhe greddy profec b as its more user friendly and its the one he reccommended.He said i have lost quite a bit of low down torque as we had to fit a bleed valve.This causes the wastegate to open where as the progressive ebv,s control this giving better throttle response.But They never gave up even with all the problems and im well pleased with the final result and looking forward to getting a bit more next year.I am also going to contact barbz to see if he modifies the belt idler and tensioner asa the horror stories seem to get more frequent.And to answer the other question ,my superspool is nearly new and the engine has only covered 58k since new so perhaps that has something to do with how well it responded to the bhp figures,but im not sure.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262182
20/12/2006 20:48
20/12/2006 20:48
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330bhp from a superspool !!! Whats going on here then, these units are only rated to 300bhp max, the GTIr hybrid would be pushed at 330 I would imagine ?

I never did understand those turbo map things but Im getting very confused as to how a little turbo like the superspool can produce a better output than a larger turbo

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262183
20/12/2006 20:51
20/12/2006 20:51
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Might be useful to see JBT's graph, as that may just be a spike on the curve, also you get into the problems of different rolling roads again. If Perfect Touch are reading at 10% over there's your answer. To be sure JBT would need to get verified by another RR. But if it is true, then its a cracking result, but like Jimbo I don't understand how the SS unit gets there. Would be good to see the curve

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262184
20/12/2006 21:04
20/12/2006 21:04
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Oh I hope Perfect Touch aren't over reading by 10%, that puts me back to below my figures from powerstation before the cams, fmic and mapping was done !

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262185
20/12/2006 21:05
20/12/2006 21:05
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LOL I am not saying they are, but its the old age argument again of differences in RR's

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262186
20/12/2006 21:19
20/12/2006 21:19

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Quote:

I never did understand those turbo map things but Im getting very confused as to how a little turbo like the superspool can produce a better output than a larger turbo



I assume its due to the fast spool up.The peak is 305bhp @6500rpm.
2000 47.1
2500 66.1
3000 111.3
3500 185.5
4000 227.2
4500 259.1
5000 286.5
5500 294.2
6000 300.7
6500 304.6
7000 289.3
The bhp doubles between3000 and 4000 rpm.The spool up from there is hard to believe.
this is power at the flywheel.Which is 272.2bhp at the road wheels themselves.
Rob also mentioned the RR differences.I suppose the only way would be to get it done at 10 different ones and average the results.And that the live map is alot better than the unichip which is what i think you have Jimbo.This is because it is telling the engine what to do rather than a piggyback unit that tries to fool the ecu.This in my opinion will not suit the coupe ecu.Perhaps when you get the live map sorted Jimbo with the extra mods you have over me you will see better figures.Most cars will respond different to chips and live maps because all the components and parts will never behave the same hence the aftermarket chips causing problems.This is where live mapping is so much better as its on the individual vehicle,so is specific and unique to that car.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262187
20/12/2006 21:25
20/12/2006 21:25
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What are you using to control the boost, to still be rising at 6500 is good for a SS unit?

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262188
20/12/2006 21:29
20/12/2006 21:29

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I was using an avcr,but Rob bypassed that as there was a problem somewhere,which i knew as it didnt boost right before and was uneaven.He mapped it on a bleed valve that he fitted and it used 1.35 bar max.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262189
20/12/2006 22:00
20/12/2006 22:00

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tbh, Highwayman got 320 with a GTi-R, cams and headwork, I think Rob might be being a little optimistic with his estimates on this occassion! But there's only one way to find out!

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262190
20/12/2006 22:16
20/12/2006 22:16

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There certainly is.I thought i would struggle to get 300 especially as everyone i spoke too had more mods and not much more than 300.But the figures dont lie,and its one hell of a turbo.Personally money aside i would take it over the gt.But i dont plan to go much above 300 so it suits me fine where as the gt can go over 400 i believe.Dont forget that the 305bhp is at the flywheel not the wheels,the others may be quoting power at the wheels which is alot more if so than mine.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262191
20/12/2006 22:17
20/12/2006 22:17
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Castle Combe
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Here's ya plot JBT...

BHP & Torque

That's a very nice curve Very fast spool as is customary with the Superspool, I'm not quite sure what you mean by you have lost low down torque to the bleed valve... you won't get any more than you have now with such good spool!!! You can also see that the torque starts to drop off at just over 5000rpm which again is customary for the hybrid turbos especially the Superspool which irc has a smaller compressor wheel than a standard turbo 1.35bar really is the max midrange for these turbos and you'll be looking at around 1 - 1.1bar redline to keep it nice and sweet.

Re the Unichip, you can get just as much power from these as you can a live map and don't foget the Unichip is "live mapped" also. There is no secret to tuning (other than the skill of the mapper), it's simply air, fuel and ignition timing. The Unichip can fine tune all these variables in order to get perfect fueling and ignition advance which in turn means max power


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262192
20/12/2006 22:23
20/12/2006 22:23
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Most people quote flypower (at least on here) as it is the standard in the UK. John don't confuse the GTi-R with a GT roller bearing turbo of which there are many different variants. The GTi-R is a hybrid T28 journal bearing turbo, same as the Superspool, but with a slightly different spec which allows it to flow more at the top end. It won't get close to 400bhp, max would be circa 320-330bhp, you would need a much larger turbine and compressor to get to 400bhp


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262193
20/12/2006 22:30
20/12/2006 22:30
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,877
Islington
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What's your turbo again Flea?

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262194
20/12/2006 22:31
20/12/2006 22:31

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Cheers buddy,
The unichip is just as good when mapped i agree,but think it will be troublesome as in theory you can get the unichip and the ecu working against each other and that i think is apparent in some that have had the unichip.
My torque which i thought was the biggest gain was:-
RPM lb/ft after Before
2000 123.7 125.0
2500 138.9 145.2
3000 194.8 203.6
3500 278.4 228.7
4000 298.3 244.7
4500 302.4 252.4
5000 300.9 247.5
5500 280.9 242.8
6000 263.2 231.2
6500 243.7 217.8
7000 217.1 200.3
As you can see the torque innitially is down due to using a vleed valve instead of a ebv,but that will improve on the remap.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262195
20/12/2006 23:06
20/12/2006 23:06

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Seems like a good result dude!

I doubt very much you'll get 320 with the thermostat changed. When i rolling roaded mines with my dodgy thermostat it was running at *normal* fuelling near redline. So peak power *probably* wont be affected by the thermostat. My fuelling was running rich midrange before i replaced the thermostat.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262196
21/12/2006 00:04
21/12/2006 00:04

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Im more than happy with 300,so anything else is a bonus.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262197
21/12/2006 01:36
21/12/2006 01:36

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id be happy with 300-320 and ive got the gtir so im imagining there shouldent be a problem! my main concern is reliablility,as i want that power but reliable! as best can be!!

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262198
21/12/2006 01:46
21/12/2006 01:46

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Quote:

Im more than happy with 300,so anything else is a bonus.




Looking at other Superspool results, I think there's scope to get that wallop of torque a little earler. What boost were you running and what fuel were you using?

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262199
21/12/2006 04:04
21/12/2006 04:04

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Quote:

Looking at other Superspool results, I think there's scope to get that wallop of torque a little earler. What boost were you running and what fuel were you using?



I was running 99ron,and the boost we had a problem with the avcr setup but with the days events we didnt have time to mess about with it.We used a bleed valve and ran at 1.35bar.The initial poor torque curve will be much improved when the controller is sorted.The ebv,s are very good at controlling the wastegate to get this initial torque where as a bleed valve just holds it constant and this is apparent on the graph.First things first thogh i am going to get a modified idler and tensioner to prevent the belt driftingh.Then i will sort the thermostat and the ebv.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262200
21/12/2006 06:27
21/12/2006 06:27

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Out of interest, what sort of money are they charging for the 'live map'?

Also can they actually map on the road motec style?

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262201
21/12/2006 06:41
21/12/2006 06:41

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They quoted a price of £450 to myself fergie.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262202
21/12/2006 06:51
21/12/2006 06:51

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does anybody know if the can do 16vt's too???

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262203
21/12/2006 07:29
21/12/2006 07:29
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Wimbledon
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Isn't the 16 valve easier to live map, as it uses the same ECU as one of the for cosworths, so there are more places that do it? I'm Sure Begbie will correct me...

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262204
21/12/2006 14:13
21/12/2006 14:13
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JimO Offline
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Quote:

Looking at other Superspool results, I think there's scope to get that wallop of torque a little earler. What boost were you running and what fuel were you using?




The trouble with that is the SS already hits hard and quickly and puts great strain on the clutch, esp through 1st to 3rd and between 2k and 4k rpm. If you bring the torque forward anymore, you will have severe traction problems and the clutch will burn out in a matter of months

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262205
21/12/2006 15:51
21/12/2006 15:51
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Staffordshire
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Fergie

I paid just under £600 on Monday, but less modified cars may well be rather easier to map - I was running 1.6 bar

It can be live mapped - when Rob had done the basic mapping (about 98% correct) we went for a trundle around while he sat in the passenger seat withthe laptop.

It was most impressive to be able to tell him that (for example) it was a bit "fluffy" coming off tickover - ten seconds and a bit of keyboard tapping later, it wasn't fluffy any more. He changed the map about a dozen times while we trundled around town - made the car significantly easier to drive off boost - before it was a bit on/off with iffy tickover and jerky throttle response.

I just wished Perfect Touch live mapping had been an option straight after I had my big rebuild - it would have saved me thousands of pounds and thousands of miles back and forward trying to map around an incorrectly wired Unichip.


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262206
22/12/2006 00:25
22/12/2006 00:25

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I can see clutch problems in the future.theres no way that this amount of spool up can be stood by a stock clutch.I did fit a new one when i changed the engine which helps.I have already uprated the gear oil to a race spec to help minimise increased temps but the boxes are usually bombproof.
The 16vt i got the impression from rob was alot more difficult to map.I didnt ask why.
Quote:

Out of interest, what sort of money are they charging for the 'live map'?



I got quoted 450 too.I was there all day though and was then quoted about 750 inc vat .Although i think he was overcharging me to get some back on the bumper .I ended up paying 450 and i have to sort the bumper myself .Personally i wouldnt have paid more than 450 as thats what i was quoted.But the final result was bang on which is the main thing.Only problem now is im left with a 300 quid bill to stand for my bumper which i think will leave me out of pocket.However he says he will look after me in feb when i return but we will see.Im pi55ed off though as i had to get it specially made and had to go up to scunthorpe for the day.And i had just got everything on the bodywork side sorted.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262207
22/12/2006 01:37
22/12/2006 01:37
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Near Reading
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I suppose there are benefits in terms of cost for the Unichip, as after the initial outlay the cost of mapping is likely to be less.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262208
22/12/2006 01:44
22/12/2006 01:44

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This always strikes someone to argue,but.In my opinion the unichip is a bad idea as its an indirect way of tuning.I prefer the live map as the ecu itself tells the car what to do.Not a piggyback unit fooling the ecu.In my opinion they will work against each other.If the unichip was cheap then fair enough but why live tune that instead of just mapping your own chip.But saying that alot of jap users get 500-600 bhp on the unichips without probs so perhaps its just me.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262209
22/12/2006 02:12
22/12/2006 02:12
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It's just you mate (well and a couple of others too) You can't fool an ecu, it's a computer! You are simply sending it the info it needs to make the car perform better Anyway, it's not about opinions or feelings with computers it's results and the Unichip does a pretty good job at getting them


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262210
22/12/2006 02:20
22/12/2006 02:20

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I got quoted 450 too.I was there all day though and was then quoted about 750 inc vat .Although i think he was overcharging me to get some back on the bumper .I ended up paying 450 and i have to sort the bumper myself .Personally i wouldnt have paid more than 450 as thats what i was quoted.




ive been quoted £450 also
surely if he says £450 thats it!! i dont like hidden charges and i cant remember if it was plus or including the vat!!??

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262211
22/12/2006 02:29
22/12/2006 02:29

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Quote:

ive been quoted £450 also
surely if he says £450 thats it!! i dont like hidden charges and i cant remember if it was plus or including the vat!!??




Me neither.But nigel paid more than was quoted.Its all plus vat as well.So that means they charged me over 250 quid for tightening the oil filter,steaming the underneath and bypasssing the ebv.Wtf...
And a lot of the time they were going onto other jobs as well and leaving mine.
If i knew i was paying for it i would have gone to a garage paid 5 quid for a steam,tightened the filter and bypassed the ebv myself.I mean we are only talking an hours work.Looks like i have been ripped then.Charging too much to compensate for the damage.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262212
22/12/2006 02:33
22/12/2006 02:33

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i want a simple honest good service! i will pay what he quotes and not a penny more! thats exactly how i play it in my garage!

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262213
22/12/2006 02:37
22/12/2006 02:37

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definately,and thats my attitude except it was late at night i was tired had a bad day and didnt think about the amount they were charging for the extra work.I paid 450 as quoted but now im 300 out of pocket with the damage caused.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262214
22/12/2006 04:33
22/12/2006 04:33
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Sorry you feel hard done by Johny

My car spent the entire day on the rollers at PT, Rob didnt manage to get the Live Map done so at about 2pm he fitted a unichip and mapped that.

I only paid for the unichip and 2hrs mapping. I couldn't fault the service ?

When I was at the garage a guy phoned up to get help with a Porsche that was stuck in gear, the company transporting the Porsche was going to charge £50 per wheel to put the car on some rollers so they could move it.
Claudio was so outraged at the cost of this that he took his own rollers in his car and fitted them to the Porsche him self to save the owner some money !

I dont think thats the actions of a guy trying to con someone out of money !

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262215
22/12/2006 04:42
22/12/2006 04:42

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Quote:

I dont think thats the actions of a guy trying to con someone out of money !



perhaps you should read this thread again then Jimbo....
I cannot fault the service,and the car is A1 and 100 times better.It is by far the most benefit in terms of money spent on the car.
Rob is sound and very knowledgeable,and i will go back once the little bits are sorted.But i feel had the car not been damaged i would of paid 450 anyway.I wouldnt have gone anymore.Also some people appear to have paid a different amount for the same service.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262216
22/12/2006 04:54
22/12/2006 04:54
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I have read it Johny, I just cant see Claudio ripping anyone off ?

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262217
22/12/2006 05:12
22/12/2006 05:12

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Let me explain then,250 quid extra for pulling 2 pipes off the avcr solenoid and putting them onto a bleed valve...Tightening up a filter and then steaming the car.......
if you went into a garage for a full service and cambelt and they quoted you 450,then damaged your car and then said its still 450 would you pay.......I thought not.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262218
22/12/2006 14:30
22/12/2006 14:30
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johnybravoturbo: go back to PT and say that you want money for the bumper. Why should you pay for the repair???


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https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: Perfect touch live map results #262219
22/12/2006 15:54
22/12/2006 15:54
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Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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JBT - your first few posts on this thread were praising PT - now you've changed your tune. Has something else happened or been said since Tuesday?

I'm not picking a fight here, but lets look at it from PT's point of view

they quoted £450 to map the car - it took several hours more because of the problems.

IIRC, the £450 was always plus VAT - making £528, so they only charged you about £220 on top - a couple of hours labour.

Its a real shame about your bumper, however its not Rob's fault that your car was too low to get off the rollers (I assume it was a height issue, not Rob catching it on a post or something)

My personal experience of Perfect Touch is entirely the opposite - they have worked tirelessly to sort some of the problems on my car, and they certainly haven't charged me for all the time I have used.

The Coupe is a new market for them. They are very keen to make a good impression, but they will do so with their results, not by cutting corners or by dropping prices.

Like I said - not picking a fight, but there's always two sides to every story. Personally, I think you should speak with Claudio - he will listen and will try hard to help.


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262220
22/12/2006 16:21
22/12/2006 16:21
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JohnS Offline
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it isn't their fault if your car has problems when it arrives. I've been at Owen Devs. when they turned away a cossie because it was not prepared satisfactorily to be put on the rollers. Not sure if you'd rather have that happen or have your car fixed at their hourly rate?

When you get a live map from Perfect Touch they are putting an encryption board into your ECU as I understand it. That means that from thereon in you HAVE to go to them every time you want any sort of remap or else you'll have to start again from scratch (unlike the Unichip). So you are locked in to buying from them.

The reason the Unichip costs £600 to start with is that it is about £150 for the chip, an hours labour for the fitting/splicing the loom and then starting from a base map or nothing to the end result. With live mapping they are always starting from a known position so in principle to get the map right from major modifications is likely to cost you exactly the same as the first map minus the cost of the encryption board (circa £20). That makes it potentially a pretty expensive option if you're planning to get multiple remaps.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262221
22/12/2006 18:06
22/12/2006 18:06
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Staffordshire
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John - not sure about the encryption board - they're simply plugging in a chip and hooking it up to an emulator to create maps

their chip can be removed and a standard (or G-Tec) chip plugged straight in without any problems


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262222
22/12/2006 18:46
22/12/2006 18:46

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Quote:

JBT - your first few posts on this thread were praising PT - now you've changed your tune. Has something else happened or been said since Tuesday?

I'm not picking a fight here, but lets look at it from PT's point of view

they quoted £450 to map the car - it took several hours more because of the problems.



I seem to be covering the same ground here
I dont have a problem with the result .I agree that the service that has been had there is exceptional,and mine was no different in terms of the car before and after.However i was not told i would be paying for the extras.I am in a similar line of work and if it costs more you get it authorised first.In my opinion i think that if they hadnt damaged the bumper it would have been 450+vat still.I asked Claudio on several phone calls if i should remove the bumper and he said no,it will be fine and then first time in and its ripped off.Again sh17 happends,i have damaged customers cars before.I told Claudio i would pay for the days RR and then send him the bill for a new bumper.I felt then the price went through the roof,and i was pressurised into sorting it then and there.This is perhaps something that i need to contact him about again.Like i said i am well happy with the result but i feel the days events caused me to pay more than anyone else and i dont think thats fair.So im paying over 700 quid now and 2 tanks of fuel to scunthorpe.So itll be nearly 800 by the time its sorted.So ask yourself would you pay 800 for 3 hours RR and a steam off of the car.I THOUGHT NOT!!!!!!!!

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262223
22/12/2006 19:13
22/12/2006 19:13
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Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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I've paid a LOT more than £800 to Perfect Touch (WELL into four figures)

by the time I pick the car up tomorrow, I will have been there six times, at a round trip of 320 miles.

Each visit has been caused by the previous mapping going wrong, due to problems on the car.

I cannot expect Perfect Touch to stand the cost of these problems (although as already mentioned, they have been VERY accomodating)

You've hit the nail on the head twice in your post:

1) We're covering the same ground
2) Sh!t happens (especially with modded Coupes!)

I think we should bring this thread back on topic before it sparks a bun-fight. There's only one person that you should be speaking with - Claudio. Sure, you can post how you feel, but nobody else can answer properly on PTs behalf.

Until Claudio has had chance to answer your grievance, its unfair to judge him. If he tells you to bog off, please feel free to come and tell us. However, if he sorts something out with you, then the problem has gone away.

I know how you feel - its sometimes very difficult to be the only person thats had a bad experience at a garage and saying so in the face of lots of happy customers. However, (within reason) this forum allows free speech, but sweetened with a spoonful of common sense.

Speak to Claudio and let us know how you get on


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262224
22/12/2006 19:34
22/12/2006 19:34
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JohnS Offline
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Quote:

John - not sure about the encryption board - they're simply plugging in a chip and hooking it up to an emulator to create maps

their chip can be removed and a standard (or G-Tec) chip plugged straight in without any problems




Yeah I know how the mapping works, I also have the equimpement to do it

I know their chip can be replaced with a standard one, but my point is that as it is encrypted their map cannot be modified by anyone except themselves (there is an intermediate board between the ECU socket and the chip they've burnt for you). If you want to go somewhere else for live mapping they would have to start again from a base map not from the map Perfect Touch have done from you - unlike with the Unichip.
So you are totally dependent in future on Perfect Touch for any/all future mapping more or less.

A similar thing happens on my Motec. Some tuners password lock the map so that only they can amend it, and that means if you want to go to a different tuner they have to start again from either a base map (if one exists) or nothing.


Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
Re: Perfect touch live map results #262225
23/12/2006 01:20
23/12/2006 01:20

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Quote:

I think we should bring this thread back on topic before it sparks a bun-fight.



i couldnt agree more im getting fccuked off with all these difference in opinions when i know im right

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262226
23/12/2006 02:44
23/12/2006 02:44
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Posts: 2,180
Havant, Hampshire.
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Just a few quick question that I've got from reading this post.

1. It's been said that they use their own chip, so I take it you don't need to run a G-Tech or the like?

2. If it does use it's own chip dose that mean if you've had this fitted and then (many years later ) you decided to sell the car and want to sell you mods separately (exhaust, filter, FMIC etc..) you can just replace that chip with the standard chip and the car will run as standard (you wouldn't have to have it mapped back to standard)?

3. If you can do the above would the PT chip be worth anything to another moder, if removed, when wanting to sell the coupé as standard?

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262227
23/12/2006 03:14
23/12/2006 03:14
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Yes

Yes

Maybe



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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262228
23/12/2006 03:18
23/12/2006 03:18

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All they do is burn there own chip so in theory you could put the car back on the stock chip.But the chip you take out wont be any good on another coupe.The chip itself only costs pence its the mapping time that costs.The chip is only unique to the individual vehicle so its best to leave the chip on it.But the mapping itself is nothing short of a miracle.the final results are hard to believe.I would be surprised if you would want to sell it after its been mapped by pt.

And moving off topic Flea and Nigel how do you keep the power on the road as i am having big traction problems now,and whilst it makes fot interesting driving it doesnt do much off the lights......Have any of you tried any tc solutions .

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262229
23/12/2006 03:22
23/12/2006 03:22
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Well for traction off the lights I have an Evo VII and for ultimate speed and coolness I have the Coupé

I am definately thinking about TC though having seen how fccuking quick Barbz was around Croydon in 1st and 2nd


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262230
23/12/2006 03:25
23/12/2006 03:25

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he uses the racelogic doesnt he.Will it interfear with the live map as it alters the fuel into the injectors ,in theory giving the maximum power without applying the anchors...
Also i take it theres a modified tensioner and idler he does to avoid the belt problems...

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262231
23/12/2006 03:26
23/12/2006 03:26

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His kit is over 1k IIRC.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262232
23/12/2006 03:29
23/12/2006 03:29

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I think L and M international or whatever there called quoted me 750 to buy or 1100 fitted

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262233
23/12/2006 03:29
23/12/2006 03:29
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Barbz uses the TC in the Motec but you can get a Racelogic for around £500 which should work just as well. The RL cuts the spark based on the ABS sensors but it won't mess with the live map.


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262234
23/12/2006 03:31
23/12/2006 03:31

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I said i wouldnt spend any more money on mine ...........But i didnt promise and power is nothing without grip so which is the best and which is cheapest.I am not planning to go anymore above 320 bhp as thats quick enough for me.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262235
23/12/2006 03:42
23/12/2006 03:42
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Wimbledon
paddy Offline
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I'd imagine traction control probably saves a fair bit of wear and tear on the suspension as well...

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262236
23/12/2006 03:57
23/12/2006 03:57
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Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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I also have traction control




Its my right foot

Seriously though, I don't suffer from wheelspin in 2nd gear upwards in the wet unless I provoke it. In the dry, I just don't suffer any loss, other than if I do something silly like drop the clutch at 5,000rpm in 1st


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262237
23/12/2006 04:05
23/12/2006 04:05

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what bhp and rubber have you got nigel.I suppose driver skill beating someone is more satisfying but being beaten by a 4wd with less power isnt.And knowing that you could beat them in the dry doesnt always make things better.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262238
23/12/2006 04:24
23/12/2006 04:24

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I dont have any probs with traction in 2nd gear in the dry. Dont launch it in first, cause thats just asking for problems.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262239
23/12/2006 04:31
23/12/2006 04:31

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Quote:

I dont have any probs with traction in 2nd gear in the dry. Dont launch it in first, cause thats just asking for problems.



I know but 1st is 50% of the 0-60 time and all that power needs to be used.There must be some solution.I will find it and then i will be happy again.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262240
23/12/2006 05:03
23/12/2006 05:03

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Simple solution is to set the AVCR to use base boost in 1st and then in 2nd go up some and 3rd go up to full power

Simple way is to ensure that your tyres are decent and at a good pressure as well. in this weather i think the GSd3's on my rear are good

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262241
23/12/2006 05:05
23/12/2006 05:05

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my avcr is annoying me and me or rob couldnt see what the problem was.And the avcr wont help when cornering.also the avcr is directly taking power away from the engine which sort of defeats the object doesnt it.And its about time you made an appearance kp.I was getting worried.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262242
23/12/2006 16:38
23/12/2006 16:38
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If you think 0-60 is the most imprtant aspect of acceleration, you have the wrong car.

I own my Coupe because out on the road, it eats up and spits out 99.5% of anything I come across.

I very rarely do full-bore starts (but a 13.0 standing quarter on Toyo Proxes at 40psi says I'm not scared to either!)

Are you using the 20VT running gear too? (i.e. Viscodrive)


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Re: Perfect touch live map results #262243
23/12/2006 21:08
23/12/2006 21:08

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IIRC JBT is running the whole lot

im getting worried the AVCR unit controller is fluffed inside JBT. any chance of trying a spare one on yours or something??

Grip at the front end of a coop in 1st is always going to suffer i reckon unless u get something like the race logic system or the like. I always feel a bit sus of things that interfere with the spark or fuelling to control power as it will mean you either have petrol in the chamber not correctly ignited or you get a spark going with no fuelling in there or very little which wouldnt be good but i havent seen what an engine with either system looks like after say 40k miles and a fair few launch starts and wether it is bad for it or not.

The visco drive helps a wee bit but the best thing you can do is get some soft compound front tyres really for track days and the like

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262244
23/12/2006 22:32
23/12/2006 22:32

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Quote:

im getting worried the AVCR unit controller is fluffed inside JBT. any chance of trying a spare one on yours or something??



IIRC the stock bleed valve reduces boost in 1st.I have bypassed the stock one with the avcr.Then bypassed that with a bleed valve for the live map.this means that i am getting the same amount of boost and spool up as i would get in 2nd and 3rd etc.This rapid increase in pressure is obviously causing the problem.Unfortunatly i dont have a spare avcr to try,but i think both jimbo and nigel have one and i may be able to check it is set up correctly at the donny track event.But i fear the worst.
Nigel forget that my car is a bravo as far as the mechanicals are concerned its a coupe.Everything is.
And i do agree that the majority of the races you encounter are rolling starts but a drag is also nice now and then.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262245
27/12/2006 20:17
27/12/2006 20:17
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JohnS Offline
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Quote:

I always feel a bit sus of things that interfere with the spark or fuelling to control power as it will mean you either have petrol in the chamber not correctly ignited or you get a spark going with no fuelling in there or very little which wouldnt be good but i havent seen what an engine with either system looks like after say 40k miles and a fair few launch starts and wether it is bad for it or not.





They only interrupt on a micro scale compared to the number of revolutions the engine is going through so the impact to the engine is minute. But there are multiple ways of achieving traction control which will each have a different effect

You can put out the injectors (like the RLTC does) and that is fairly harmless as the spark is only going to ignite any backflow from the exhaust ports which is negligable

You can also put out the sparkplugs which gives an anti-lag effect whereby the fuel may ignite in your exhaust manifold. The effect is that the boost stays on but the power isn't being transmitted to the wheels. This is slightly more damaging to the manifold and turbine wheel, but again at this level it isn't too bad compared to proper anti-lag

Then there is retarding boost which is what the stock ECU/EBV does - it sees a rise rate of revs that is too fast and so drops the boost to base. There's a lot to be said for the stock system as it is integrated into the ECU. It's a shame all tuning chips disable it in effect by arbitrarily setting it so high it never kicks in

Then there is retarding the ignition advance which possibly has the most gentle effect but conversely is the worst way at gaining traction as the effect is least marked. The ECU also has this integrated as its failsafe system for if it has identified another problem (e.g. det or excessive intake or water temps)

To add to all that there are also different ways of detecting slip. Racelogic uses the standard ABS sensors, whereas the Motec uses Hall sensors that are a lot more sensitive and so work better at lower rpm but at a price of fitting additional sensors instead of using stock ones.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262246
27/12/2006 21:26
27/12/2006 21:26

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Cheers john thats a hell of a write up

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262247
27/12/2006 22:42
27/12/2006 22:42

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Cheers John,thats of great benefit .
The tc really all it does is cuts power to the engine.And although i have heard great praise for the racelogic system i cang get my head around the fact that its not accurate enough to control the fueling like a map would.Therefor does this cause hot spots as there is insuficient fuelling.I mean initially i dont suppose its enough to bother about,but say you corner hard and often forcing the tc to enguage.This is at high revs and in theory should cause problems.So am i just better getting a ebv like the Apexi which will control the boost in the gears differently.As this may be safer for the engine and more accurate for the fuelling.And if anyone can shed light as to why mine doesnt work that would be very nice..

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262248
28/12/2006 00:14
28/12/2006 00:14
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JohnS Offline
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Well as long as it is putting the injectors out then it doesn't matter what revs you won't get a hotspot, in fact you will get a moment of cooling in the combustion chamber as the compressed air is not combusted.

If we had a very weak crank I suppose it could do something to that (ie. uneven load on the crank) but in reality no one has ever broken a 20VT crank that I know of.

AVCR is a good way to go to be honest, and on my car I use something quite similar built into my engine management such that in the dry I never get any wheelspin, and in the wet I generally run base boost as that's still around 320BHP
WHat I would like to make lateral-load related control of boost such that if I am pulling a large lateral load my boost is dropped. I know how to achieve it, just don't have the time to do it at the mo'.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262249
28/12/2006 04:18
28/12/2006 04:18

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based on this recent conversation i have chosen to go for the tc system and have just purchased one.
I now have a post in the technical page.
If anyone has fitted one then any help would be appreciated...

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262250
28/12/2006 05:01
28/12/2006 05:01

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Quote:



If we had a very weak crank I suppose it could do something to that (ie. uneven load on the crank) but in reality no one has ever broken a 20VT crank that I know of.







Actually... my first engine (before i owned the car) had a broken crankshaft..

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262251
28/12/2006 16:57
28/12/2006 16:57
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probably that it was worn on the journals beyond the undersize rather than broke in two as it is pretty bulletproof.

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262252
28/12/2006 17:48
28/12/2006 17:48

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Quote:

probably that it was worn on the journals beyond the undersize rather than broke in two as it is pretty bulletproof.




Not sure as it wasnt me that owned it but was also told the conrod went through the block and one of the pistons went topside.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262253
29/12/2006 21:22
29/12/2006 21:22
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sounds like a rod bolt went

Re: Perfect touch live map results #262254
30/12/2006 04:33
30/12/2006 04:33

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I must admit i worked for fiat for nearly 4 years and never saw 1 20vt engine fail due to mechanical failure.
1 was because the chap run it out of oil,1 was because it was run out of water,1 came from factory with low compression and 1 i did the cambelt and a week later the idler failed.
And grinding all 20 valves in by hand was not fun..
That was before the days of the oscillating valve grinders..
So i would agree with the comment that the lumps are bombproof.
If a failure happends its probably down to lack of maintenance,bad repairs or people modding them without knowing what there doing.

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289816
05/02/2007 03:41
05/02/2007 03:41

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Okay i have had a few extra goodies fitted since the live map...
I hear alot about Owen developments but pt did the first map and said they should be able to get another 30 bhp.
After my ordeal i feel pt is a no no ,once bitten and all..
Plus my ecu was held in with 4 nuts and after pt mapped it i found a rattle which was caused by them throwing away 2 of the nuts and putting the ecu back on pi55ed up.
Frustrating as i said i would take the glove box out to make it easier but obviously bodging it back up was easier for them.

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289828
05/02/2007 03:50
05/02/2007 03:50

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 Originally Posted By: johnnybravoturbo
Okay i have had a few extra goodies fitted since the live map...
I hear alot about Owen developments but pt did the first map and said they should be able to get another 30 bhp.
After my ordeal i feel pt is a no no ,once bitten and all..
Plus my ecu was held in with 4 nuts and after pt mapped it i found a rattle which was caused by them throwing away 2 of the nuts and putting the ecu back on pi55ed up.
Frustrating as i said i would take the glove box out to make it easier but obviously bodging it back up was easier for them.


Hate to say it dude but i think your path lies with PT. Go back and speak to them about your concerns and see what they say.

Ross

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289843
05/02/2007 04:11
05/02/2007 04:11

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Naaaa.i would recommend the live map to a friend but i aint going there again.
If you cant trust someone with your car then you shouldnt have them work on it.
so has anyone used owen developments.

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289852
05/02/2007 04:19
05/02/2007 04:19

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Owen Devs used to do Unichips, but have since stopped fitting them and concentrated on things like Motec (thats were the big money is!). They still map unichips for original customers but don't know if they do live maps.

Chris

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289858
05/02/2007 04:24
05/02/2007 04:24

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Thanks dude i will look into it

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289859
05/02/2007 04:25
05/02/2007 04:25

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The only thing is mate, don't they encrypt the chip so only they can re-map it? \:\?

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289878
05/02/2007 04:41
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the chip is useless anyway and there only pence to buy its the mapping that costs the money.

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #289917
05/02/2007 05:16
05/02/2007 05:16
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 Originally Posted By: Nobby
They still map unichips for original customers but don't know if they do live maps.

Chris


My unichip was fitted by them and they told me a few months ago that they don't offer any unichip support anymore. \:\(

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: strike4A] #290731
06/02/2007 06:42
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 Originally Posted By: strike4A
 Originally Posted By: Nobby
They still map unichips for original customers but don't know if they do live maps.

Chris


My unichip was fitted by them and they told me a few months ago that they don't offer any unichip support anymore. \:\(


Can they do that? \:\(

I guess it depends on when you had it installed.

Re: Perfect touch live map results [Re: ] #297271
14/02/2007 17:58
14/02/2007 17:58
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Its been 3 years+ since Owens fitted a new Unichip to a coupe so I'm not surprised they've stopped supporting it. They won't do live mapping AFAIK, but you can ask I suppose.

They mainly concentrate on Motec as Nobby mentioned and also do a lot of OE work (they do all the Mitsubishi Evo FQxxx conversions for the UK market for instance).

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