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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270667
07/01/2007 22:13
07/01/2007 22:13

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Rob, as live mapping 20vt's has been a success, do u think mapping a 16vt would be easier, the same, or completely different ?

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270668
07/01/2007 22:15
07/01/2007 22:15

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Sorry if this has been asked many times - is a live map likely to give any benefits on a std un-modded car?

ta

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270669
07/01/2007 22:15
07/01/2007 22:15
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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Rob - this just gets better and better - its behaving almost perfectly - it idles, its smooth, it picks up properly and when its on boost - well, I can safely say the man from Toyo will be getting lots of visits

It was remarked today at the birmingham meet that under the bonnet, my car still looks remarkably standard. This is by design. However, its impossible to see where the countless hours of mapping time have gone to by looking under a bonnet, so here's the acid proof of Perfect Touch's skills

Torque graph

Power graph

There's a very slight wobble in the power curve and a slightly bigger dip in the torque line - both to do (we think) with the cam variator


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270670
07/01/2007 23:25
07/01/2007 23:25

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7500 rpm is very fast for a std rod, balancing inparts no strength to the rods, balancing does not permit an increase in rpm on std rods, it merely reduces the uneven loading on the crank. Although I doubt you would use that rpm much, on the track I'd change at 7000rpm, the greatest stress on the rod is on the exhaust stroke at high rpm. The std rods have a lower tesile strength then their forged cousins and a shorter fatigue life. Take it easy on them.

Rich

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270671
08/01/2007 00:00
08/01/2007 00:00

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I have the same rods as Nigel fitted into my car and i've been advised not to take it to more than 7000RPM.

Ross

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270672
08/01/2007 00:42
08/01/2007 00:42
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Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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To be honest, I did wonder about 7,500. I had worked out that 7,200 would be a more reasonable increase.

Might get PT to drop it a little when I'm down there for the RR day later this month


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270673
08/01/2007 00:43
08/01/2007 00:43

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What injectors are you using Nigel?

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270674
08/01/2007 00:43
08/01/2007 00:43

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Might be advisable. Where is your peak power?

Ross

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270675
08/01/2007 00:46
08/01/2007 00:46
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,194
Göteborg, Sweden
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Great results Nigel. What turbo are you using? GT28RS? Do you have a boost and/or AFR graph also?


Coupé Fiat 20V Turbo Plus 1999, T19 Mitsubishi turbo
https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: Perfect Touch result! #270676
08/01/2007 00:50
08/01/2007 00:50

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16V coupe will be no different, exactly the same maps are available.

So Glad Nigel, time to enjoy!!

Live map will definately give improvements on a std car, however... if you are contemplating any mods at all, get them done first to save yourself some money.

Cheers

Rob

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270677
08/01/2007 01:54
08/01/2007 01:54
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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Fergie - I'm on 16vt injectors - 384cc, but they're very close to their limits. Rob reckoned a 3.5bar FPR plus another remap would solve the problem.


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270678
08/01/2007 11:20
08/01/2007 11:20

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Quote:


There's a very slight wobble in the power curve and a slightly bigger dip in the torque line - both to do (we think) with the cam variator




so are you going to fix that nigle? when i look into your torque graph i remember mine here it has the same wobble!

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270679
08/01/2007 15:26
08/01/2007 15:26

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I tried moving the set point to different RPM's but it didnt really gain (low or high). Fiat must have spent some time on that

One other thought, your car is showing a bit leaner than it should be on the DD graph?

Cheers

Rob

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270680
08/01/2007 15:32
08/01/2007 15:32

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Looking at the graph Nigel 7000rpm is your peak power anyways, so your not going to lose out by bringing it back to 7000rpm.

Ross

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270681
08/01/2007 16:01
08/01/2007 16:01

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Quote:

16V coupe will be no different, exactly the same maps are available.

So Glad Nigel, time to enjoy!!

Live map will definately give improvements on a std car, however... if you are contemplating any mods at all, get them done first to save yourself some money.

Cheers

Rob



yes i know i have a problem in my hp figure as well and i dont know why! check here so we will not be off topic..

omran

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270682
08/01/2007 16:26
08/01/2007 16:26

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h2ypr,

It is not a good idea to rev limit at peak power, the engine should always 'try' to rev past peak power.

Cheers

Rob

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270683
08/01/2007 17:19
08/01/2007 17:19

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Quote:

h2ypr,

It is not a good idea to rev limit at peak power, the engine should always 'try' to rev past peak power.

Cheers

Rob




Whats the reason for that? So that the power band doesnt end on the highest load on the engine?

Ross

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270684
08/01/2007 18:49
08/01/2007 18:49
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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Nigel  Offline OP
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Staffordshire
if you HAVE to change gear at peak power, by definition, the revs will drop to less than peak power

If however you can hang on a little bit past peak power the rev will drop to a higher figure that will naturally be a little closer to the peak.

Also, in some circumstances, it might negate the need for a gearchange, although in my case I'm still going to need 4th a long way before the end of a standing quarter (was hitting 117mph at TOTB)


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270685
08/01/2007 19:08
08/01/2007 19:08
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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Nigel  Offline OP
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Staffordshire
In an attempt to see just how laggy my car is, I've just spent a few minutes looking for other people's power graphs

If you remember, Highwayman was well chuffed at the grunt he got from his GTi-R turbo at Perfect Touch

Here's his charts:

Power Curves
Torque Curves

Now compare the lower end with mine - Phil has just under 100bhp at 3,000rpm - so do I. Phil has 200bhp by 4,000rpm - so do I. Its only after 4,000rpm that my much bigger turbo starts to romp away.

Personally, I was quite suprised at this, as its normally accepted that big turbo = later spoolup

Any thoughts?


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270686
08/01/2007 19:36
08/01/2007 19:36
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
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welcome to the 400BHP+ club

Congrats!

BTW I think the reason your spoolup is so good is Barbz' headwork. Made about 700rpm improvement in spool on my car

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270687
08/01/2007 19:58
08/01/2007 19:58
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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JohnS - I'd forgotten about the Barbz effect!

Makes you wonder what a car would be like with a superspool AND a Barbz head - does anyone run this setup?


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270688
08/01/2007 21:25
08/01/2007 21:25

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This would be the light at the end of the tunnel you were looking for then Nigel?

Congrats .

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270689
08/01/2007 23:50
08/01/2007 23:50
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Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
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Quote:

JohnS - I'd forgotten about the Barbz effect!

Makes you wonder what a car would be like with a superspool AND a Barbz head - does anyone run this setup?




To be fair I think it makes less of a marked effect on smaller turbos, tho still probably noticeable/beneficial

Anyway, I hope you enjoy some trouble-free motoring - think you more than deserve it!!

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270690
09/01/2007 00:19
09/01/2007 00:19

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I cant look at the graphs,(CAUSE IM AT WORK) but has my graph been compared against nigels? I have headwork from barbz aswell and this is definately helping my spool up aswell.

Ross

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270691
09/01/2007 00:39
09/01/2007 00:39
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 742
Midlands
Easy Offline
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Nigel now get to Powerstation and you will have 466bhp...!


Re: Perfect Touch result! #270692
09/01/2007 00:40
09/01/2007 00:40

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That would be interesting actually!!

ROss

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270693
10/01/2007 16:48
10/01/2007 16:48

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Fantastic result Nigel,..glad you are finally happy with the car!!...sounds ideal all from a 2-litre motor..well good!!!

How is the clutch holding up Nigel and what is it like to drive, this has been my greatest factor in going for any more than 370bhp?

Joe

Re: Perfect Touch result! #270694
10/01/2007 16:59
10/01/2007 16:59
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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Hi Joe - Clutch is absolutely fine. I can get it to judder very slightly, but I have to try - normally its as smooth as a standard clutch. Now the low rpm running is sorted, I can even crawl the car in stop-start traffic with zero throttle and a bit of diligent clutch control.

OK, its a bit heavier than standard, but I can cope with that. Its already getting some abuse though, plenty of second and third gear blasts and no sign of slip at all.

My only recommendation would be NOT to go for a lightened flywheel - it did me no favours and meant that the car was more on-off in traffic. Probably OK for a weekend toy or a track car, but it made smooth driving at low speed quite difficult.


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270695
11/01/2007 04:00
11/01/2007 04:00
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline OP
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Staffordshire
Found something else out today - perhaps the only negative I could find with the mapping.

When the power comes in, its VERY hard - its a real thump in the back. Entertaining when in the mood, but a little bit difficult to drive smoothly with.

Also, I found a problem when flooring it AND staying on the throttle in 4th 5th & 6th (apart from the fact that I tend to run out of road VERY quickly ). The boost fluctuates - I can feel it through the car, and when I set my Blitz to plot the boost line, I could see the trace alternating by about 0.1 bar.

When I next had to pull up in traffic, I checked the gain setting, and found the cause. The gain was set to 50 That explains the thump in the back! The turbo is obviously capable of spooling up VERY quickly when it needs to.

I dropped the gain to 20 and it was a lot smoother, and more importantly, it got up to peak boost and held it with no fluctuation.

So - Ive decided to use two of the Bltz's four channels for peak boost. One with high gain, for the neck-snapping spoolup and one with lower gain for fast but smooth running. The other two chanels are set at 1.2 bar and 1 bar respectively.

To remind those that use a Blitz, gain settings rarely need to be above 15, and in most circumstances, single figures are perfectly adequate.

I'd welcome Rob's feedback - using 50 certainly made the car lively, but I'm not sure it will have helped peak power, as the solenoid couldn't work fast enough to control the boost, so it was constantly raising and lowering. This wouldn't have been felt on the rollers, as the car wouldn't have given any surging feelings.

Good news is that after three days of blasting and commuting, the car is still running the same as when it left Perfect Touch. On the Unichip, it would have gone very lean by now, requiring an ECU reset.

There's one downside though - the power is so addictive that my fuel consumption has suffered. I can see me having to use base boost on my daily commute just to get four days out of a tank. At the moment, I'm going to struggle to get three days commuting done. That's about 18 mpg for this week

Having said that, I haven't had nine mapping sessions since July in order to minimise my fuel consumption


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Re: Perfect Touch result! #270696
11/01/2007 04:34
11/01/2007 04:34
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 859
North-East
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Congratulations Nigel! Very interesting reading, and it's great that we have pioneers like you who'll spend vast amounts of money while sharing the highs and lows of your tuning experineces for other Coupe enthusiasts to learn from


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