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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270638
06/01/2007 02:25
06/01/2007 02:25
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sweeet ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) ! I bet you're pleased with that ![](/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif) . Phil
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270639
06/01/2007 02:26
06/01/2007 02:26
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270640
06/01/2007 03:12
06/01/2007 03:12
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Don't know about torque until I speak with them again tomorrow. However, on previous mapping sessions, I've had to get Rob to hold the torque back to about 330ft-lb. He's seen over 350, but I'm on standard rods, so I thought it best not to push too hard. Rob (who is careful with his praise) just said its "fccukin mental" ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270641
06/01/2007 03:40
06/01/2007 03:40
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Great result Nigel.. whats your mods
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270642
06/01/2007 04:44
06/01/2007 04:44
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Quote:
whats your mods
would be quicker to list what I haven't got...
er....
forged rods
thats it ![](/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270643
06/01/2007 04:48
06/01/2007 04:48
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Oh Right.. By the way how the hell do you keep it on the road..400bhp must be mental..i know 300 is almost useless until 3rd
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270644
06/01/2007 06:45
06/01/2007 06:45
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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It has been a pleasure Nigel, your car presses on with such little effort... and that is on boost setting one!! With 3 others to choose from it should be an interesting drive home ![](/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif) Cheers Rob
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270645
06/01/2007 07:12
06/01/2007 07:12
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270646
06/01/2007 08:50
06/01/2007 08:50
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 548 Oxford
Sean_C
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 548
Oxford
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At last. Congratulations Nigel.
Enjoying Coop ownership, second time round . Also enjoying RWD action in a thundering V8 E90 M3.
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270647
06/01/2007 12:31
06/01/2007 12:31
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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First off, congratulations Nigel - hopefully this brings the whole saga to an end. And don't tell me that you're not bloody delighted in breaking the big four-oh-oh ![](/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif) Quote:
By the way how the hell do you keep it on the road..400bhp must be mental..i know 300 is almost useless until 3rd
Whenever people say this, my first thought is that there is something wrong with their car. I imagine that I'm running close to, if not, 300 bhp, and it will only just break traction in 1st if I'm being a prat, and I am sure the car is not down on power - it will do the 60-100 run in 3rd in less than 6 seconds, etc.
Perhaps check your tyres / wishbones / etc ?
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270649
06/01/2007 19:32
06/01/2007 19:32
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Congrats long struggle by the look of your posts but well worth it in the end. What's next ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270650
06/01/2007 19:33
06/01/2007 19:33
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,676 Didcot - Oxon
RusH
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
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Posts: 1,676
Didcot - Oxon
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Congrats - been reading the post updates over the last few days at work.
Enjoy!
Coupe now sold!
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270651
06/01/2007 19:35
06/01/2007 19:35
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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well done mate, if you dont mind me asking what turbo is that on?
I'm making the upgrade onto forged pistons now myself, what kind of boost levels can be used on the pistons without the rods?
Iain
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270652
07/01/2007 03:01
07/01/2007 03:01
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Congradulations mate!
Been watching this for a while.
I'm sure the first drive will make it all worth while..
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270653
07/01/2007 05:17
07/01/2007 05:17
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Oh YES! Rob couldn't resist another quick play today and ran it on the rollers again. result was 405.9bhp and 341ft-lb I got to Hoddesdon at about 4 o'clock - went out for a quick drive with Claudio to make sure everything was OK, then set off for the blast home. Its never been quicker - its absolutely manic when its hard on boost. it pulls hard all the way to the new 7,500rpm rev limiter My request to Perfect touch was a seriously tall order. - my car is a 25,000 - 30,000 mile a year everyday commuting and business car as well as a hobby and competition car. So - I told Claudio I wanted two things: 1) When its on boost, I want 400bhp with a straight line power curve - no dips or lumps, no wavering, just a long seamless power delivery, with a flattening at the very top end and no big tail-off in power 2) Next, I want it to tick over perfectly, cruise smoothly, trickle in traffic without lumpiness, hesitation, fluffy throttle response, no dodgy hot or cold starting and normal fuel consumption when not ragging it In other words, I wanted it to behave like a completely stock car when I wanted it to, and like a mad racer when I wanted it to. This was a massively tall order, but through skill and persistency, Perfect Touch have managed it. After six months of fannying around with a wrongly wired Unichip, it feels like the car it was always meant to be. So - an official BIG thanks to Claudio and Rob at Perfect Touch - thanks for sticking with it when other tuning shops would have given up. Thanks for putting up with my countless questions and nagging. Thanks for doing what you said you would do. ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270654
07/01/2007 05:32
07/01/2007 05:32
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Superb Nigel - well pleased for you! Now, how about a passenger ride? ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270657
07/01/2007 11:27
07/01/2007 11:27
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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great nigle, i knew that you will not give up until you have it back on roads ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) im very happy for you maty ![](/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270658
07/01/2007 15:33
07/01/2007 15:33
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Hey Nigel
What about the 7500 limiter, I thought from past posts you were not considering raising the limiter with unbalanced internals? Is it really safe then? I have considered raising mine also from 7 to 7.3 or so... At what RPM does the max power come?
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270659
07/01/2007 16:22
07/01/2007 16:22
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Max power is at about 7,000rpm. The internals are balanced - Iceberg spent loooong hours with the piston and rod assemblies - he got them to within about half a gram of each other - Fiat tolerance is +/- 10grams Power graphs to follow later ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270660
07/01/2007 16:48
07/01/2007 16:48
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Ok i didnt knew the internals were balanced...i better stay with my 7k limiter plus mechanic said is no point beyond as the max power occurs at a bit before...
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270662
07/01/2007 16:59
07/01/2007 16:59
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Max power is at about 7,000rpm.
The internals are balanced - Iceberg spent loooong hours with the piston and rod assemblies - he got them to within about half a gram of each other - Fiat tolerance is +/- 10grams
Power graphs to follow later
So if your interals are balanced then you can look at increasing the rev limiter?
Interesting as i have balanced internals, and this may be an option for me! ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif)
Ross
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270663
07/01/2007 18:27
07/01/2007 18:27
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,985 In an Audi
Taffy20vt
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
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Posts: 1,985
In an Audi
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Excellent result Nigel ![](/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif)
Ex 432bhp '00 Sprinty 20vt6 '17 S3 Sportback '69 Amazon 131
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270664
07/01/2007 18:40
07/01/2007 18:40
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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balanced internals ( not your guts ! ) means that the rpm limit can be raised, as there is less chance of inertia related damage occuring, BUT It still will not prevent the rods from bending under stress ! ![](/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270666
07/01/2007 22:02
07/01/2007 22:02
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Hope the journey home wasnt dampened (no pun intended) by the rain mate.
IIRC the wheel figure was around 370hp for the 401.9 run.
Cant recall the 405.9 wheel figure but i'll post it up tomorrow when i go back in.
Thanks again Nigel.
Rob
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270667
07/01/2007 22:13
07/01/2007 22:13
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Rob, as live mapping 20vt's has been a success, do u think mapping a 16vt would be easier, the same, or completely different ?
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270668
07/01/2007 22:15
07/01/2007 22:15
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sorry if this has been asked many times - is a live map likely to give any benefits on a std un-modded car?
ta
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270669
07/01/2007 22:15
07/01/2007 22:15
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Staffordshire
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Rob - this just gets better and better - its behaving almost perfectly - it idles, its smooth, it picks up properly and when its on boost - well, I can safely say the man from Toyo will be getting lots of visits It was remarked today at the birmingham meet that under the bonnet, my car still looks remarkably standard. This is by design. However, its impossible to see where the countless hours of mapping time have gone to by looking under a bonnet, so here's the acid proof of Perfect Touch's skills Torque graph Power graph There's a very slight wobble in the power curve and a slightly bigger dip in the torque line - both to do (we think) with the cam variator
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270670
07/01/2007 23:25
07/01/2007 23:25
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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7500 rpm is very fast for a std rod, balancing inparts no strength to the rods, balancing does not permit an increase in rpm on std rods, it merely reduces the uneven loading on the crank. Although I doubt you would use that rpm much, on the track I'd change at 7000rpm, the greatest stress on the rod is on the exhaust stroke at high rpm. The std rods have a lower tesile strength then their forged cousins and a shorter fatigue life. Take it easy on them.
Rich
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270671
08/01/2007 00:00
08/01/2007 00:00
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I have the same rods as Nigel fitted into my car and i've been advised not to take it to more than 7000RPM.
Ross
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270673
08/01/2007 00:43
08/01/2007 00:43
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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What injectors are you using Nigel?
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270674
08/01/2007 00:43
08/01/2007 00:43
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Might be advisable. Where is your peak power?
Ross
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270676
08/01/2007 00:50
08/01/2007 00:50
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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16V coupe will be no different, exactly the same maps are available.
So Glad Nigel, time to enjoy!!
Live map will definately give improvements on a std car, however... if you are contemplating any mods at all, get them done first to save yourself some money.
Cheers
Rob
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270678
08/01/2007 11:20
08/01/2007 11:20
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
There's a very slight wobble in the power curve and a slightly bigger dip in the torque line - both to do (we think) with the cam variator
so are you going to fix that nigle? when i look into your torque graph i remember mine here it has the same wobble!
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270679
08/01/2007 15:26
08/01/2007 15:26
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I tried moving the set point to different RPM's but it didnt really gain (low or high). Fiat must have spent some time on that ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) One other thought, your car is showing a bit leaner than it should be on the DD graph? Cheers Rob
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270680
08/01/2007 15:32
08/01/2007 15:32
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Looking at the graph Nigel 7000rpm is your peak power anyways, so your not going to lose out by bringing it back to 7000rpm.
Ross
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270681
08/01/2007 16:01
08/01/2007 16:01
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
16V coupe will be no different, exactly the same maps are available.
So Glad Nigel, time to enjoy!!
Live map will definately give improvements on a std car, however... if you are contemplating any mods at all, get them done first to save yourself some money.
Cheers
Rob
yes i know i have a problem in my hp figure as well and i dont know why! check here so we will not be off topic..
omran
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270682
08/01/2007 16:26
08/01/2007 16:26
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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h2ypr,
It is not a good idea to rev limit at peak power, the engine should always 'try' to rev past peak power.
Cheers
Rob
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270683
08/01/2007 17:19
08/01/2007 17:19
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
h2ypr,
It is not a good idea to rev limit at peak power, the engine should always 'try' to rev past peak power.
Cheers
Rob
Whats the reason for that? So that the power band doesnt end on the highest load on the engine?
Ross
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270685
08/01/2007 19:08
08/01/2007 19:08
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Posts: 17,369
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In an attempt to see just how laggy my car is, I've just spent a few minutes looking for other people's power graphs If you remember, Highwayman was well chuffed at the grunt he got from his GTi-R turbo at Perfect Touch Here's his charts: Power CurvesTorque CurvesNow compare the lower end with mine - Phil has just under 100bhp at 3,000rpm - so do I. Phil has 200bhp by 4,000rpm - so do I. Its only after 4,000rpm that my much bigger turbo starts to romp away. Personally, I was quite suprised at this, as its normally accepted that big turbo = later spoolup Any thoughts?
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270686
08/01/2007 19:36
08/01/2007 19:36
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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welcome to the 400BHP+ club ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) Congrats! BTW I think the reason your spoolup is so good is Barbz' headwork. Made about 700rpm improvement in spool on my car
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270688
08/01/2007 21:25
08/01/2007 21:25
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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This would be the light at the end of the tunnel you were looking for then Nigel? Congrats ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) .
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270689
08/01/2007 23:50
08/01/2007 23:50
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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Quote:
JohnS - I'd forgotten about the Barbz effect!
Makes you wonder what a car would be like with a superspool AND a Barbz head - does anyone run this setup?
To be fair I think it makes less of a marked effect on smaller turbos, tho still probably noticeable/beneficial
Anyway, I hope you enjoy some trouble-free motoring - think you more than deserve it!! ![](/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270690
09/01/2007 00:19
09/01/2007 00:19
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I cant look at the graphs,(CAUSE IM AT WORK) but has my graph been compared against nigels? I have headwork from barbz aswell and this is definately helping my spool up aswell.
Ross
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270691
09/01/2007 00:39
09/01/2007 00:39
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 742 Midlands
Easy
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 742
Midlands
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270692
09/01/2007 00:40
09/01/2007 00:40
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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That would be interesting actually!! ![](/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) ROss
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
#270695
11/01/2007 04:00
11/01/2007 04:00
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,369 Staffordshire
Nigel
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Found something else out today - perhaps the only negative I could find with the mapping. When the power comes in, its VERY hard - its a real thump in the back. Entertaining when in the mood, but a little bit difficult to drive smoothly with. Also, I found a problem when flooring it AND staying on the throttle in 4th 5th & 6th (apart from the fact that I tend to run out of road VERY quickly ![](/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif) ). The boost fluctuates - I can feel it through the car, and when I set my Blitz to plot the boost line, I could see the trace alternating by about 0.1 bar. When I next had to pull up in traffic, I checked the gain setting, and found the cause. The gain was set to 50 ![](/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif) That explains the thump in the back! The turbo is obviously capable of spooling up VERY quickly when it needs to. I dropped the gain to 20 and it was a lot smoother, and more importantly, it got up to peak boost and held it with no fluctuation. So - Ive decided to use two of the Bltz's four channels for peak boost. One with high gain, for the neck-snapping spoolup and one with lower gain for fast but smooth running. The other two chanels are set at 1.2 bar and 1 bar respectively. To remind those that use a Blitz, gain settings rarely need to be above 15, and in most circumstances, single figures are perfectly adequate. I'd welcome Rob's feedback - using 50 certainly made the car lively, but I'm not sure it will have helped peak power, as the solenoid couldn't work fast enough to control the boost, so it was constantly raising and lowering. This wouldn't have been felt on the rollers, as the car wouldn't have given any surging feelings. Good news is that after three days of blasting and commuting, the car is still running the same as when it left Perfect Touch. On the Unichip, it would have gone very lean by now, requiring an ECU reset. There's one downside though - the power is so addictive that my fuel consumption has suffered. I can see me having to use base boost on my daily commute just to get four days out of a tank. At the moment, I'm going to struggle to get three days commuting done. That's about 18 mpg for this week ![](/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif) Having said that, I haven't had nine mapping sessions since July in order to minimise my fuel consumption ![](/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
[Re: Nigel]
#279851
22/01/2007 19:21
22/01/2007 19:21
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Well done to Nigel and Rob at PT. Cracking result - you aimed to have a 400bhp car with no Nos etc. and you've done it. Nice one - any chance I can have a go at the rolling road day? ;-) would be really interesting to see what the spool up and throttle response is like from the bigger turbo. ![smile \:\)](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: Perfect Touch result!
[Re: ]
#281457
24/01/2007 20:01
24/01/2007 20:01
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Nigel, Sorry i havent replied yet, cant believe the work i have come back to ![laugh \:D](/forum/images/graemlins/default/laugh.gif) Not so sure on the Gain setting on 50, i must have missed that tbh and kept adjusting the target.. Sorry about that. In fact i'm suprised it held as well as .1bar difference ![sick \:s](/forum/images/graemlins/default/sick.gif) Glad you sorted it now though. Unfortunately havent got time today to read through any more bits but hopefully see you on sunday. Cheers Rob
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