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For those who have fitted HID's
#273348
10/01/2007 20:54
10/01/2007 20:54
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
Begbie
OP
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I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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This post has come from the FiatForum, which i found on the integrale forum, which is a letter to the Department for Transport and their reply with regards to fitting HID's Quote:
Dear Mr XXXXXX,
Please see attached our fact sheet which outlines the Department's understanding of the regulations relating to HID conversion kits.
Please note that the Department for Transport cannot provide an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts.
Yours sincerely
Jillian Smith
DfT - Transport Technology and Standards
The fact Sheet; (It came in form of a word document, but I have just copied and pasted here for ease.)
December 2006
Aftermarket HID headlamps
In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above.
If you require any further information regarding the regulations covered by this fact sheet, please contact the DfT at the address below:
Transport Technology and Standards 6
Department for Transport
Zone 2/04
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street Telephone: 020 7944 2078
London Fax: 020 7944 2196
SW1P 4DR Email: TTS.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273349
10/01/2007 21:00
10/01/2007 21:00
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Interesting....
The only part the coupe appears to comply with as standard is the dips staying on with the mains.
Can't see the boys in blue spending time on this one (hopefully) however come MOT time you guys in UK have a problem. Maybe do the coversion so you can slot in halogens (same as cat-decat exhausts) for the test?
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273351
10/01/2007 21:11
10/01/2007 21:11
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Should have said 'Problem if the DOT want to make it one..ie tell the testers to look for aftermarket HID fitments.' We have something of an issue here with our NCT testers and beam height / beam shape. I got a new Skoda failed on its first NCT because the 'lights were mounted too low in the car...not high enough from the road surface' 
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273353
10/01/2007 21:28
10/01/2007 21:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
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Ok. And has anybody failed the MOT or been arrested because they have pagid pads fitted?
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273354
10/01/2007 21:54
10/01/2007 21:54
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I knew it was only a matter of time before they cottened onto this.
I think there will be an issue with this very soon, just like in the USA where it is banned in almost every state.
6000K and above are noticeable to the eye, but 5000k and below would possibly be okay and not noticed as a blatant conversion.
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273355
10/01/2007 22:02
10/01/2007 22:02
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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TBH i think the coops beam pattern is more than upto the job due to its cut off being so sharp.
And if people in germany with coops can convert and still be road legal then im sure we are safe and it wouldnt stand up in court on the polices side...
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273356
10/01/2007 22:07
10/01/2007 22:07
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Or as Jayzee says go for the yellow/white lamps. The brightest of the HID's is the 3800k bulb which is a pretty good match for halogens, also make sure they are properly adjusted. I find my beams are still a bit high even when adjusted to 1 on the switch.
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273357
11/01/2007 00:05
11/01/2007 00:05
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Or as Jayzee says go for the yellow/white lamps. The brightest of the HID's is the 3800k bulb which is a pretty good match for halogens, also make sure they are properly adjusted. I find my beams are still a bit high even when adjusted to 1 on the switch.
Absolutely Skodaman, the beam pattern they produce isn't right for HID's even when set to low, they point sharply up to the left.
A good test is a three lane motorway, if you are in the outside lane see how much you light up the road signs to your left!
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273358
11/01/2007 04:02
11/01/2007 04:02
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,417
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG
Club Treasurer Member 311
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Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,417
Lightwater, Surrey
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Yes they point up sharply to the left...until they are cut off at the top again. The beam pattern is a bit like this Code:
___
\____
and not Code:
\
\
\_____
I would say the beam pattern is exactly right  The reason your HID's light up the road signs so well on the left is the reason that people fit HID's in the first place 
1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273360
11/01/2007 04:42
11/01/2007 04:42
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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You crash at nite.
Insurers examine car and decide lights weren't legal...
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273361
11/01/2007 04:43
11/01/2007 04:43
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Don't crash at night. 
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273363
11/01/2007 04:50
11/01/2007 04:50
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
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Who said they weren't legal? That just says in the department's view they aren't. Doesn't say you could actually get in trouble for it. And if they have been sold to me as E marked and legal for road use in my vehicle and also passed MOTs then how on earth could I know they aren't legal? 
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273364
11/01/2007 04:57
11/01/2007 04:57
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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IMHO if they are E marked, then that's enough for me.
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273366
11/01/2007 05:22
11/01/2007 05:22
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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E mark just means the lights themselves are legal, doesn't refer to what you fit them in: bulb mounting.
Read the text at the top of the thread. The DOT says retrofitted lights are a no no unless you fit a new lamp housing specifically designed for HID's. The Coupe light boxes aren't designed for HID's so they are technically illegal..you can draw all the cutsy diagrams you like and have plenty of shots of shed doors ..as the exception to the 1989 act which doesn't mention HID's (because they didn't exist at the time) is a 'proper headlamp unit designed for the job.'
Long winded way of saying its a grey area which a tabloid newspaper will doubtless run a campaign on...'Toddler killed by badly adjusted aftermarket HID kit' Some yob threw it off a 10 storey block and it landed in his pram?
However I doubt Bill Plod would be interested unless they were a really daft colour eg 12K purple and 'a danger to other road users' through bad adjustment.
Last edited by Skodaman; 11/01/2007 05:50.
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273367
11/01/2007 13:44
11/01/2007 13:44
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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These lamps are seriously bright, probably as bright, if not brighter than 100w bulbs. I have had three different cars with factory HID's and the beam pattern is nothing like the ones produced on the coupe. This is where self-levelling comes in, to avoid (to a certain extent) blinding other road users. We all know that factory HID's can blind others in certain road conditions even with the correct motors fitted.  When I changed my coop headlights to HID's I bought some brand new headlights as the covers on my originals were shot. The new lights were never fitted to a car before so had to be adjusted. Even on my lowest default setting, I can when taking left-hand bends on a slight incline blind someone going the other way due to the sharp beam pattern.  The lights in the standard setting are still much lower than the originals I removed. I have another standard coop now to make a direct comparison and IMHO anyone that fits these kits would need to adjust the setting they were at with halogens so they are that much lower. A good case in point, on the M25 the other night I saw a Merc E class that had a conversion done to straight halogen lamps (not projectors) the bloody idiot looked like he was on full beam all the time.  It's people like this that will make the DOT sit up and take notice on the subject.
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
#273368
11/01/2007 18:11
11/01/2007 18:11
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Hmmm, interesting stuff. I am about to convert the Jeep (which has projector lamps) as it is worse (yes worse) than the Coupe (besides the coupe is SORN over winter, and it doesn't really get dark enough at night in the Summer up here). I don't think reading this info will stop me from doing it, as far as I can see (boom boom) not being able to see at night is far more dangerous than fitting the kits to standard light cases.
In fact, I've just been to look at the lights on the Laguna (standard fit Xenons) and the Jeep, and the appear the same i.e. completely clear lenses. Surely this directive would only apply to thre older style lenses that have focus markings on them?
Also, as far as I am aware, there is no self leveling on the Laguna. When you switch them on, the beam doesn't 'move up' as I have seen on some other cars (notably Audi).
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
[Re: ]
#287325
01/02/2007 14:20
01/02/2007 14:20
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,072
South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,072
South Cambs
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Found THIS on the Auto Express website. Throws a bit more light onto the subject 
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
[Re: Jim_Clennell]
#287458
01/02/2007 18:58
01/02/2007 18:58
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
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I think the important thing is that it says the could be illegal, not they are. Having passed an MOT recently with them on, and having seen a coupe driving with the lights I really dont think they are. The beam pattern is pretty much identical to standard bulbs (or at least it is with the kit I have fitted). The only way to really know would be to get them tested. Is the beam pattern analyser thing a part of the MOT, or do they generally just check the height is ok? The garage adjusted the height of mine at MOT time after testing the alignment and finding they were pointing too low. 
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
[Re: mattB]
#287608
01/02/2007 22:55
01/02/2007 22:55
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Trouble is so many idiots are fitting these to standard headlights and not projection, so have no control over the light output. These are the people that are going to get a ban put on these through ignorance 
Last edited by jayzee; 01/02/2007 22:57. Reason: repeated an earlier post!!
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
[Re: ]
#287660
01/02/2007 23:53
01/02/2007 23:53
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
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That's fair enough. But what it says is that if you fit them, and get the lights tested and they are still within legal regs then they are ok to have fitted.
I'm not sure if the coupe would come into this category though. Anyone know about the MOT question?
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
[Re: mattB]
#287662
01/02/2007 23:54
01/02/2007 23:54
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
[Re: ]
#287754
02/02/2007 02:04
02/02/2007 02:04
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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My halogens were fine and adjusted..however soon as I put the HID bulb in the beam pointed sharply up and left. Illuminated most of the left hand verge and any low-flying UFO's. Needed a fair amount of twiddling on both the adjusters to bring it back into shape..
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Re: For those who have fitted HID's
[Re: ]
#287758
02/02/2007 02:06
02/02/2007 02:06
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,080
Dumfriesshire, Scotland
Baz76
Forum is my job
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Forum is my job
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,080
Dumfriesshire, Scotland
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In answer to the MOT question,the height is measured and the area to the left where the beam kicks up has to be in a specific zone. If i remember to take my camera with me i`ll take a couple of before and after pics on my beam tester when i`m fitting my HID`s which i should be fitting soon. Baz 
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