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First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271bhp. #317335
15/03/2007 00:07
15/03/2007 00:07

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This is my first rr session.

My engine mods are as follows: Pro alloy FMIC, SIP with Apexi power filter (group buy), Gtech 2, Apexi boost controller, turbo XS BOV.

Graphs

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l115/rickbull83/Extreme%20motorsport%203%20march/Dastekpower.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l115/rickbull83/Extreme%20motorsport%203%20march/Dastekextras.jpg

The operator thought it was fuelling well which was my main concern although he said it could be slighter richer in the mid section. Commented that as it was running lean when on spool up this was a good thing as it helped the turbo spool better.

The boost spikes are down to the apexi being on self learn apparently. Says he could sort them out with a few hours on the rollers. Also flatten the torque curve between 3000 and 5000 rpm

Next mod will be an exhaust of some sort and walbro. Not sure if i should go for downpipe, de cat etc. What sort of gains could i expect from a de-cat? or downpipe back? turbo back exhaust? watching the other thread about the best system anxiously...

Have my duty set so that it tails of significantly after 5500 rpm. Operator said it could have held more boost but i didn't want to push it too much as i had been advised before that this is enough for my current set up.

Thoughts/reccomendations please

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271bhp. [Re: ] #317345
15/03/2007 00:27
15/03/2007 00:27

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is that dastek edinburgh? looking about getting them to map my car in the next month or so..

Recommend them? helpful?

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271bhp. [Re: ] #317352
15/03/2007 00:32
15/03/2007 00:32

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sorry fife i mean **

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271bhp. [Re: ] #317590
15/03/2007 03:53
15/03/2007 03:53

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Isnt 50bhp more from the wheels to the fly at bit excessive? Someone else i know went and he had same at the wheels as yourself but managed to get 100bhp more at the fly????? evo 5. WTF?

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271bhp. [Re: ] #317601
15/03/2007 04:04
15/03/2007 04:04
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Nah, dastek in fife are just called Dastek.


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Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #317778
15/03/2007 13:12
15/03/2007 13:12

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 Originally Posted By: rickbull83
This is my first rr session.

My engine mods are as follows: Pro alloy FMIC, SIP with Apexi power filter (group buy), Gtech 2, Apexi boost controller, turbo XS BOV.

Graphs

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l115/rickbull83/Extreme%20motorsport%203%20march/Dastekpower.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l115/rickbull83/Extreme%20motorsport%203%20march/Dastekextras.jpg

The operator thought it was fuelling well which was my main concern although he said it could be slighter richer in the mid section. Commented that as it was running lean when on spool up this was a good thing as it helped the turbo spool better.

The boost spikes are down to the apexi being on self learn apparently. Says he could sort them out with a few hours on the rollers. Also flatten the torque curve between 3000 and 5000 rpm

Next mod will be an exhaust of some sort and walbro. Not sure if i should go for downpipe, de cat etc. What sort of gains could i expect from a de-cat? or downpipe back? turbo back exhaust? watching the other thread about the best system anxiously...

Have my duty set so that it tails of significantly after 5500 rpm. Operator said it could have held more boost but i didn't want to push it too much as i had been advised before that this is enough for my current set up.

Thoughts/reccomendations please


If were you I'd hold off on the exhaust until you make a decision about what your next turbo will be. Then perhaps get the turbo and turbo-back exhaust at the same time, you'll probably also need the walbro and some sort of custom mapping at the same time!

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #317806
15/03/2007 14:43
15/03/2007 14:43
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How did they check the fuelling?

Nice figures \:\)


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Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: Freddan72] #317985
15/03/2007 18:33
15/03/2007 18:33

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its a dastek rr but not at dastek's headquarters in Dalgety bay.

I went to extreme motorsport near livingston.

Worked out transmission losses to be 18.5%. Not sure if thats good or not??

@ Hyper - not sure about your pals evo. I had a friend who had an evo 7 that made 360 bhp to the fly and i think his transmission losses were about 24%

Did the fuelling by putting a wideband lamdba up the tailpipe.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #318032
15/03/2007 19:24
15/03/2007 19:24

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I would not worry about the boost at the top end - hold as much as you can if the fuelling is good for it. The standard turbo will not hold huge boost anyway - so dont worry, all that will happen if you try and hold more than 0.8 bar redline is you'll get boost fluctations.

Next mods should be a full exhaust with decat (if you go for a hybrid turbo then I'd pick 2.5 inch exhaust and downpipe, or maybe a 3 inch if you opt for a roller bearing and dont mind a bit of boomy noise), hybrid or roller bearing turbo (lots of info on turbo choice in the tuning section)and a walbro fuel pump with direct voltage feed. I would also go for custom mapping, and do all of the above in one go, and you'll be running 300 - 350 bhp depending on your choice of turbo, which will most likely mean new and uprated clutch time as well....

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #320710
19/03/2007 23:36
19/03/2007 23:36

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Cheers for the advice suba.

I think i will opt for a hybrid of some sort so might go back on the rollers once i've got an exhaust sorted out and try holding more boost at redline to see what she makes. Then when funds allow i think i'll either get mine made into a hybrid or wait for a good second hand hybrid to come along.

From reading various different opinions on websites a loss of 18.5% isn't too bad for a ff car running standard transmission with 270 bhp?

What have other folk with similiar power had via transmission losses?

Cheers


Last edited by rickbull83; 19/03/2007 23:38. Reason: spelling
Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #320794
20/03/2007 01:17
20/03/2007 01:17

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A hybrid like the GTI-R will hold 1.15 bar at the redline - so you'll make a lot more power - same kick as the standard turbo low down, but no real drop off in power up the top. I was running this turbo and my engine went pop at the top of fourth - which I put down to the walbro pump not getting enough voltage to get the fuelling right. Hence after a rebuild I did not push the engine at all until it was fully mapped.

I've got no idea about transmission losses - whenever my car has been mapped I've made sure it's running fairly conservatively. You'll find that you'll get different results on differnt rollers - and even the same rollers on different days.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #321876
21/03/2007 12:38
21/03/2007 12:38

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 Originally Posted By: rickbull83
What have other folk with similiar power had via transmission losses?


It's nothing to do with how much power you are running mate, it's only ever shown as a percentage. Transmission losses is probably the most contentious issue when it comes to rolling roads - the higher the transmission loss they factor in, the more pub bhp you have \:D

In an ideal world, ALL bhp figures would be at-wheels, as really this is all that counts. But it doesn't work like that. Don't get too hung up on the power figures (which look very good by the way, even if assume 15% loss which is more normal from experience).

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #321886
21/03/2007 13:10
21/03/2007 13:10

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George at Xtreme used to me my karting mechanic, a good friend of mine. John Swift who owns the place is a very good guy too. I will be putting my car on there soon when i fit my new I/C to get it re-mapped.

I reckon you'll get a bit more info from Xtreme as opposed to Dastek who are a bit reserved when it comes to telling youu what is what, especially when if you are like me a lot of the jargon is foreign.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #322294
22/03/2007 02:42
22/03/2007 02:42

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Yeah John and George both seem top blokes!

Friendly and knowledgeable.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #323641
23/03/2007 22:12
23/03/2007 22:12

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Rick, how come you've gone for a Gtec2 rather than a Gtec1? Just wondered really as my setup is slightly more modded that yours, but not alot(Hybrid and Exhaust) and I'm still with a Gtec1. Just wondered really.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #323678
23/03/2007 22:55
23/03/2007 22:55

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It was GreameL that said i should opt for the Gtech 2 as opposed to the Gtech 1. I understand that i can run a Gtech 2 due to the FMIC. Better cooling and dense air so can have more ignition advance.

Better speaking to him yourself for more accurate advice

What sort of power are you running with hybrid and exhaust? Is it a full system, de-cat, downpipe etc?

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #324645
25/03/2007 20:13
25/03/2007 20:13

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Cheers, I'm just wondering when I should move over to the gtec2 from gtec1. Current is 272lb/ft Torque and 228bhp(not sure why it's quite that low though, think it was PRV & boost leak doing it). I'll ping Gramham a PM once I am sorted.

It's a full supersprint with de-cat, standard downpipe though, also got a pace SMIC too. I should be getting the Pro Alloy FMIC and straight induction tomorrow. When thats fitted I'm hoping for about 280bhp and similar torque as the boost leak should be solved with the PA FMIC, also got electronic boost controller now too, so will be holding boost better to the redline. Then it's time for a live map as that'll be engine tuning finished for me.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #324652
25/03/2007 20:26
25/03/2007 20:26

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 Originally Posted By: Mark_K
Cheers, I'm just wondering when I should move over to the gtec2 from gtec1. Current is 272lb/ft Torque and 228bhp(not sure why it's quite that low though, think it was PRV & boost leak doing it). I'll ping Gramham a PM once I am sorted.

It's a full supersprint with de-cat, standard downpipe though, also got a pace SMIC too. I should be getting the Pro Alloy FMIC and straight induction tomorrow. When thats fitted I'm hoping for about 280bhp and similar torque as the boost leak should be solved with the PA FMIC, also got electronic boost controller now too, so will be holding boost better to the redline. Then it's time for a live map as that'll be engine tuning finished for me.


Guarantee the bhp is low because its not holding the boost.

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #355392
13/05/2007 18:51
13/05/2007 18:51

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Thoughts on fuelling please.

I realise this is quite a delayed response but at the time the operator said the car was fuelling well. So I took his word on the matter.

The photobucket link is at the top of the thread. (dastekextras, 2nd one)

Upon closer examination the fuelling seems to be rather lean till about 4000 - 4500 rpm.

Is this worryingly lean? Should I be concearned?

The operator John who has had a few coupes and has tuned lots of high powered evo's ( http://www.extreme-motorsport.co.uk ) said that as the fuelling is on the lean side it helps generate boost quicker and stronger.

Thought/comments much appreciated.

Cheers


Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #355858
14/05/2007 04:09
14/05/2007 04:09

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 Originally Posted By: rickbull83


The operator John who has had a few coupes and has tuned lots of high powered evo's ( http://www.extreme-motorsport.co.uk ) said that as the fuelling is on the lean side it helps generate boost quicker and stronger.



He's correct in what hes saying but its not advantageous to do so if it comprimises the safety of the engine.

I cant see the fuelling cause its photobucket and im at work but i will check when i get home in an hour and let ya know what i think.

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356139
14/05/2007 17:55
14/05/2007 17:55

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It looks very lean to me, it looks like it's in the 13s for most of the midrange. Common advice on here seems to be somewhere in the 11s, the maybe leaning out to 12.1:1 at the top end - I'd get that sorted asap.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356146
14/05/2007 18:04
14/05/2007 18:04

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Agreed. Just checked that. Far too lean midrange. Its nearly 14 at some points. Then at redline the fuelling is spot on. I would think that your having difficulty fuelling the midrange because of the extra fuelling the increase in boost is asking for. I think with either walbro pump and fuel mod upgrade or cleaning of injectors, you would be able to sort that out.

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356168
14/05/2007 18:33
14/05/2007 18:33

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You have the following options:

Change the chip for a GTEC 1, and check the car again.

Change the fuel pump for a walbro 255 and make sure the pump is getting enough voltage under load (modify the feed to it if necessary.)

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356196
14/05/2007 19:15
14/05/2007 19:15

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You might even want to try the standard chip - on my coop the standard chip was richer than the GTEC1 and GTEC1 HF (although apparently this isn't normal!)

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356574
15/05/2007 04:08
15/05/2007 04:08

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Thanks for the comments guys.

Much appreciated!!

I have been meaning to get a walbro for a while now. Shall purchase one tomorrow and do the voltage mod asap.

Will put it back on the rollers after to see if that helps the problem.

Cheers

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356579
15/05/2007 04:17
15/05/2007 04:17

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 Originally Posted By: rickbull83
Thanks for the comments guys.

Much appreciated!!

I have been meaning to get a walbro for a while now. Shall purchase one tomorrow and do the voltage mod asap.

Will put it back on the rollers after to see if that helps the problem.

Cheers


Be interested to see what happens dude. Give me a shout when your heading over!! \:D

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356649
15/05/2007 13:54
15/05/2007 13:54
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I don't think the fuel pump is the issue. Given that your open loop fueling at the top end is good i.e. high 11s low 12s, this means that the pump can supply enough fuel under full load. Changing the fuel pump does not effect your fueling beyond the fact it can deliver a greater capacity should you require it. I would instead look to moderate the fueling maps via another chip or adjustable regulator. It is quite usual to see a coop running lean coming on boost. Running it lean does help spool and due to this the ignition is retarded although it is still common to experience a bit of pinking when hitting full boost.


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Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: Flea] #356661
15/05/2007 14:21
15/05/2007 14:21

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Mines was running lean too in the midrange so we are going to put a FPR on so that it holds a steady rate better. Also with re-mapping the unichip you can alleviate this by adding in more fuel in the relative part of the rev/power/torque range. That might not be the best description but that's the whole idea fo having the unichip i thought????

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: Flea] #356664
15/05/2007 14:23
15/05/2007 14:23

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Good point Leight - had not thought about that. \:\)

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: Flea] #356763
15/05/2007 17:06
15/05/2007 17:06

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 Originally Posted By: Flea
I don't think the fuel pump is the issue. Given that your open loop fueling at the top end is good i.e. high 11s low 12s, this means that the pump can supply enough fuel under full load. Changing the fuel pump does not effect your fueling beyond the fact it can deliver a greater capacity should you require it. I would instead look to moderate the fueling maps via another chip or adjustable regulator. It is quite usual to see a coop running lean coming on boost. Running it lean does help spool and due to this the ignition is retarded although it is still common to experience a bit of pinking when hitting full boost.


Cheers for the info there! What would you recommend I do then flea? Is the car running dangerously lean in the midrange? I know its hard to see the AFR from photobucket.

The car is running a Gtech 2 from GrahamL. Should I see if he can alter the chip so that the fuel in the midrange is greater?

Have been meaning to get a walbro for a while now. I understand that the fuelling is better a redline but would fitting a walbro help the situation? Or is it more of a future proof mod?

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356807
15/05/2007 18:21
15/05/2007 18:21

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Flea i think your wrong.

When it comes on boost it asks for more fuel pressure which should increase the fuelling to match the increase in boost. Bear in mind by redline rick is fuelling correctly, when the boost is less than 12psi. Whereas most people are worried about fuelling at redline.

Bear in mind i run the gtech2 and have no probem with fuellng what so ever. In fact i have too much at some points. So how can the same map, show totally different results on the rollers, without something else showing an effect?

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356816
15/05/2007 18:31
15/05/2007 18:31

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Because your car is completely different!!!! Two cars with an identical spec dont fuel the same - this has been proven countless times.

Most people are worried about the fuelling at the redline as it's at the top of the rev range that the engine is most likely to pop if there's a lean spot! The demand for fuel at the top end is going to be higher with an uprated turbo than the standard one - but I very much doubt that the demand for fuel is higher at 3,000 rpm than 6,500 on the standard turbo.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #356941
15/05/2007 21:07
15/05/2007 21:07
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Ross, the fuel pump is not metering the fuel like the injectors it's simply pumping the fuel as required. If the injectors are drawing more fuel than the pump can provide then you have a problem. While the boost pressure may be less at the top end, as the turbo becomes less efficient, this is a product of the greater air volume flowing at higher rpms i.e. it starts to choke. A greater flow of air needs to be compensated with more fuel therefore the pump is under much greater load to meet this demand. In Ricks case the fueling is fine at the top end where it is flowing the most air and therefore requires the most fuel.

In answer to your question Rick, I would ask Graham about a higher fueling chip. The original G-Tec 2 that I tested ran lean coming on boost but it was fine elsewhere. Graham developed a higher fueling chip which sorted the lean spot although I did have to trim the fuel at the top end via the Unichip. You could try an adjustable fuel reg which may just iron out the lean spot albeit with a slightly richer top end which isn't too bad. Alternatively get a live map or Unichip for custom fueling.


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Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: Flea] #356966
15/05/2007 21:40
15/05/2007 21:40
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I think you would benefit greatly from a custom map Rick, my unichip found me an extra 20bhp, a shed load more torque and more importantly, safe fueling right through the revs.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #357050
16/05/2007 00:25
16/05/2007 00:25

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 Originally Posted By: suba
Because your car is completely different!!!! Two cars with an identical spec dont fuel the same - this has been proven countless times.



I had a near identical spec to rickbull when i first got the car, and never had a problem with midrange fuelling from gtech2 chip.

I understand what your saying Flea, but something has to be responsible for the lean spot midrange.

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #357341
16/05/2007 12:23
16/05/2007 12:23
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No two cars are the same Ross, you could put the same chip in 10 different cars all with the same spec and get 10 different results.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: Jimbo] #357365
16/05/2007 13:17
16/05/2007 13:17

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All this talk of chips is making me hungry.

HAve you got a unichip fitted Rick or did you just get it on the rollers at extreme, i can't remember??

If not then get a unichip installed.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #357503
16/05/2007 16:56
16/05/2007 16:56
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Group Buy! Matty needs a Unichip and so does Ross (I'm fed up listening to his paranoia). And sounds like Rick needs one and I 'may' be tempted if someone twists my arm sufficiently. ;\)


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Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #357504
16/05/2007 16:56
16/05/2007 16:56

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Cheers for the thoughts guys!

I don't actually have a unichip. Just a Gtech 2. I realise that a uni chip/live map would solve the problem but i was saving up for some coilovers to do my new brakes justice and possibly and exhaust. Cash is tight at the moment so will wait for Graham to get back to me with a higher fuelling version combined with a walbro. Hopefully this works better.

I've hardly driven the car in the last few months and to be on the safe side have just put the apexi back to base boost. Is the afr at the moment dangerously lean midrange?

If 11-12.5 is the ideal afr, would I be correct in assuming that if the car was fuelling correctly then it should be roughly this from when it comes on boost to the redline?

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #357527
16/05/2007 17:31
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As soon as you go wide open throttle the fueling should start dropping to 13s and as the boost climbs you'll go into the 12s where on full boost you should be around 11.8 - 12 all the way to redline.


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Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: Flea] #357584
16/05/2007 19:03
16/05/2007 19:03

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 Originally Posted By: Flea
As soon as you go wide open throttle the fueling should start dropping to 13s and as the boost climbs you'll go into the 12s where on full boost you should be around 11.8 - 12 all the way to redline.


Agree 100% \:\)

Joe

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #357691
16/05/2007 21:43
16/05/2007 21:43

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Ditto! Although to add, when at half a bar of boost should be around 12.5! \:D

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #358152
17/05/2007 14:15
17/05/2007 14:15

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 Originally Posted By: sparco
All this talk of chips is making me hungry.

HAve you got a unichip fitted Rick or did you just get it on the rollers at extreme, i can't remember??

If not then get a unichip installed.


I would hold off on this option if possible until you get an uprated turbo, otherwise you'll just have to pay for a re-map when you change it (your standard one wont last forever). See if you can fix the problem with a higher fuelling chip, and installing the walbro and voltage mod will be needed for an uprated turbo anyway - so you may as well do that too!

IMO the best thing you can do for your car right now is a hybird turbo, unichip, and fuel pump + voltage mod. You'll then be running 300bhp and more importantly you'll be running it safely without repeatedly trying different chips and paying for rolling roads (and your time getting it all done).

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #358407
17/05/2007 18:15
17/05/2007 18:15

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just like i am now and running very well too, 300bhp at 1.0 bar of boost.

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #358444
17/05/2007 18:43
17/05/2007 18:43

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1 bar of boost?

Ross

Re: First rolling road at Extreme motorsport. 271b [Re: ] #358452
17/05/2007 18:46
17/05/2007 18:46

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Thought that would provoke a reaction. yes that's correct. a little bit of development and we are now producing the same boost at 1.0 bar as i was at 1.3 bar.

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