Balance Motorsport and gaz have been developing a coilover kit for the 20vt (as posted in the group buy section).

A prototype kit was installed on my car yesterday – followed by a trip to Elite in Essex to get the tracking setup.

The day involved a fair bit of driving back to SW London afterwards so I could have a bit of a play – luckily the roads were also dry. The initial setup was with the damping set at 6 on the front and 9 on the back (rears can be adjusted up to 20 for max damping, and I think the fronts go up to either 10 or 20 – will check later).

Driving out of Gaz it was obvious the tracking was a bit out with the steering had a very light feel. At elite they found a fair bit of positive camber and toe out on the front, and therefore put camber bolts in – even with these they could only get –0.3 on the front (will post tracking printouts when I have a chance), so I think that there is some more work needed on the top mount, or perhaps a slightly shorter spring?

The ride height of the car is pretty much standard, which is allowing the correct wishbone angle on the front (horizontal) and should really benefit handling – though I’ll need to get the car on track to find out just how good. I think I may need a shorter spring on the front though as the dampers are currently adjusted to full drop, and it would be nice to have the option of dropping the car down a bit.

So how does the car feel? The damping is very good, and the ride is less crashy than with my Koni adjustables with Eibach springs (35mm drop), handling also feels tight, and the back lively (23mm rear ARB on the car as well).

Bad bits (bearing in mind this is a prototype kit):

1. The bracket on the strut does not appear to be quite right – so I have a few bits and bobs held in place with cable ties.
2. The camber as mentioned cant be adjusted to any more than –0.3 degrees even with bolts.
3. Either my car has gained another 50bhp (it’s cold – but not that cold!) or I’ve lost some traction. On high boost as soon as I hit 5,000 rpm (peak torque) on a dry road with full beans I get a nice lump of torque steer and wheelspin in second gear – which I did not with my old setup. I’m going to try winding down the fronts a few clicks and seeing if this gets back the traction.

Any thoughts chaps?

Bad tracking would easily cause torque steer, followed very quickly by a loss of traction as you try to stop the wheels going where the power wants to take them

Sounds like the mounting holes are in the wrong place if the default setup caused positive camber - the maximum of -0.3 would support this theory

If the coilover is narrower than the standard spring (which I assume it would be) then adjustable top mounts may be an easier (and more accurate) way of setting camber.

Be careful with top mounts though - a small change in the fore/aft position will muck up the castor and trail, which will play havoc with the steering weight and the self-centring effect

Finally, I guess they've used the same type of camber bolt as DrFrag used (slimmer bolt, with cams) - remember what happened to Joe?

PS - how easy is the damping adjustment on the rears? - I would LOVE a set of rears with remote-adjustable damping, instead of having to take the shock off to adjust it

Are bump and rebound damping independently adjustable or is it just one adjustment that changes both in a set ratio?

I’ve got a table somewhere that tells you what you should do when different things happen. I think Jimbo did a really good few posts on how to set it all up back when pistole got his kit fitted (easy to find on a search ‘+adjustable’ and ‘pistole’ as name of poster) which might help you out.

Also bear in mind that the ride height and everything else will probably take a while to settle/bed in.

Did Gaz go for a slotted top hub mounting hole Si, even a standard coupe should be running more camber than that so they've got something wrong ?

What spring rates have they gone for and what sort of springs, I tried all sorts of springs before being happy with the ones Im using now, it takes time and some tinkering to get it all sorted so stick with it

Oh and the springs won't get any shorter as they settle, coilover springs should be guaranteed to keep their length.

Dont worry about lowering it more, having the wish bones in a position where the kinematic roll centre is below ground means nothing. It must be the most incorrectly stated bit of suspension knowldge ever, esp on a Mc Strut. The kinetic situation is vastly different where the wishbones will not have symettrical position. The kinematic situation only accounts for symetrical wishbone positons, and you dont have to be a genius to realise that in cornering where the you are actually interested in the roll center can no longer be predicted but the Kinematics. Lower it down.

Rich

I think Gaz or at least BMS were more concerned with the geometry of the wheel as the wishbone went passed the horizontal.
Have a look at Eibachs ERS line of springs and have a play around, the beauty of Leda was they would do this exchanging of springs for free until we found a good one. Ask if Gaz/BMS will do the same ?

doesnt matter Jim its the biggest myth about roll centres, ignore it. Its a poor comparison for performance suspension and was widely used in deciding what happens with soft passenger vehicles. Be concerned with force application points in the kinetic situation. Those who cite such stuff should explain what the situation is in cornering when one side is in droop and the other in bump - that completely rubbishes the kinematic situation and forces a kinetic analysis.

rich

Interesting reading Rich. I never did see the issue with the wishbone position, its a single pivot point on a Mcphearson strut wishbone so the geometry shift shouldn't really be that radical if its set up correctly at the required ride height ?

Thanks for the feedback guys - I'll write more when I can.

Another quick question - how much front negative camber does the coupe run as standard?

Between 0.5' to 1' negative is standard, you want at least 1' negative though even on a road car, a track car should be looking at around 1.4 depending on how stiff the car is in roll. Too much camber on a fwd car will ruin it.

Anyone know what the distance from the arch to the rim is on a standard car front and rear?

Rich you are correct about the roll centre moving when under load through a corner but it is a known fact that with macstrut suspension starting out with the roll centre way below ground (generally indicated by a wishbone above paralell)is wrong especially on a fwd car. i have practical experience of this with customers cars and my own with laptimes. drop to far and you just end up with loads of understeer. An elegant solution is to move the balljoint pivot point (works brilliantly on Mitsubishi Evos) however nothing available on the coop short of a custom wishbone or moving pick up points.

Whiteline suspension explain the point well here
http://suspensionparts.info/showthread.php?t=294&highlight=roll+center+height

There's a dial that you can turn on the shock - very easy, and no need to remove the wheel etc.

I went straight to elite to get the tracking done after fitting - they suggested the camber bolts, and said that they only use top quality ones... the chap I spoke to really knew his stuff.

The tracking is spot on.

One adustment that changes both as far as I know.

the top hole is not slotted. I dont know the spring rate Jim - Julian did not want it disclosed until the kit is done - but any knowledge you could provide would help...I know how much time you have spent with suspension setups!

Pants - looks like I'm running more than standard positive camber at the moment then.

Julian I will email the article from race car engineeing, its made interesting but difficult reading.

Rich

please do! i may well have read it already as they keep sending me free copies !

Here are the printouts from Elite - one shows the readings before the camber bolts were added, the other after:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/alignment2.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/alignment.jpg

Any comments are appreciated. I'm thinking that a shorter spring on the front will sort out the camber issue...

I think one of your rear trailing arms is starting to fail, hence the .11 you have on the rear left

Looks like they've screwed up the caster measurements Si, the original measurements look spot on but the after ones are miles off. This would be ok if the caster was adjustable but its not. They measure it by rocking the alignment rig to be in line with the strut and in your case it looks like they didn't do it right for some reason ?

Begbie is spot on with the rear arm bearing though, replacing that will tighten things up at the rear.

Let me check your toe settings against mine, it looks like its almost set up as wheels nearly straight instead of running some toe ?

Yes. Sorting both rear arms has been on the to do list for a while...

How would they sort out the caster then? I don't want to spend a lot of time and money making adjustments and getting it all alligned continuously...

Thanks for the help Jim.

I dont think you need to sort the caster, I think there's some sort of error in their measurements the second time around.

Yeah like Matt said, they've just cocked up the second reading, they can't adjust anything with the caster so the first reading will be the correct one.
When they measure it its just a case of rotating the alignment device on the wheel so it lines up with the angle of the damper strut, that gives you the caster angle.
They must have got it slightly out or forgot to do it the second time ?

I can't find my print out from Leda but I'm sure it was running a total toe of around 0.8' ? Your is set to almost wheels straight and that will give you some torque steer.

Not sure what toe is in terms of degrees and minutes, but I know it's 2mm toe'd in as the standard setting.

Also, I dont remember writing that previous post in the early hours of this morning. Suprised it makes sense.

All except that your talking about castor and not caster Matt, aren't they the wheels you get on shopping trolleys ?

Drunken bum

Jim - if you can find what Leda set it to that would be great. The problem I think I'm going to have is that Gaz can't do the tracking and setting up - so I'm going to have to be running about and spending money to get the setup right...

I've noticed some knocking going over bumps now - which I think is coming from the rear of the car. Would the stiffer damping or the suspension change in general be likely to cause this if the rear arm was worn (i.e. the arm is the issue)- was much worse when I stuck a 17 stone mate of mine in the passenger seat...

How would I tell if the top mounts have been put on the wrong way round?

I've noticed that the thread on the damper is hitting the spring on both fronts - you can see where it's wearing.....hmmmmm.....

Thats because the standard coupe top mount makes the spring sit at an angle to the damper so it will wear it away. Thats one of the reasons for fitting the Brava/o mounts, I did tell BMS about the top mounts when they were in the design stage but I guess they thought the coupe mounts would do ?

Mine do it slightly but only on the alloy spring retainer between the main and tender spring. If its wearing the spring then I'd be asking GAZ for advice Si.
For the price of some Brava/o mounts its worth taking them to GAZ and asking them to incorporate them into the design.

Or just make adjustable top mounts and alleviate the problem altogether.

Madeno have this option and i'm sure there are pictures somewhere.

What i personally will be looking for is the best set-up not the most cost effective and what we have to accept is that in some situations things are just going to cost that bit more for the right solution.

Suba you are doing a grand job and if there is anything i can help with then let me know. Mind you i haven't been out in my car for a good few months now but it was running again at the weekend so very close now.

Thanks Marco - looks like the noise is actually coming from the front left, where the spring has moved off central from the top mount...

We'll see what Gaz have to say about the issues - but I'm also thinking a custom top mount that is up to the job in every way.

Thanks for the offer, but I'm not sure that there's anything that you can do mate. Just sit tight and keep an eye on the thread - I'll get there!

Si, can you take some pictures of the top mount and how the spring locates in it please ?

Will do asap.

I'd agree adjustable top mount is great. Much easier to set and adjust the camber than messing about with camber bolts or a slotted hole in the strut.

Another thing might be to consider having a tender and main spring rather than a helper and main spring (if that's what you've got now and I've remembered them the correct way round ). I've considered changing to a tender spring but just never gotten round to it, but from what I've heard Jimbo say it sounds like a much better configuration.

Having spoken with Gaz we will have to work on the seating of the spring to top mount. i believe the problem is due to lack of preload (need slightly shorter springs all round).

Anyone know coop factory caster setting? IIRC it should be 3.5 deg. we think at present camber problem is caused slight missalignment on bottom bracket). My logic behind using coop mount is i am sure it will deliver more caster than brava mount but i may be wrong. we could certainly go with adjustable top mounts but they do not last long - and I think this would put many people off?

certainly the second caster measurement in wrong. also i misread toe before there was a lot of toe out (2deg) ok on track but bad for tyres on road. the reason it was toeing out so much was due to the ride height being raised.

We are getting there an I thank Simon for his efforts.

Julian

Just to let you know what I'm running Julian:

Eibach ERS 6" 550Lbs/Inch Main Spring Part No. 0600.250.0550
Eibach ERS 250/550Lbs/Inch Progressive Tender Part No. 0200.250.0550

The top mount is using a seperate ball race bearing that fits inside the original top mount to locate the upper spring seat.

Some pictures:

Top Mount

Bearing

Upper Spring Seat

Assembled Leda Strut

Brava/o Top Mount

Hope that helps ?

Is that brava top mount in the picture fitted with KW v2s Jimbo?

KW's Thats £800 worth of LEDA front struts

The bottom picture is the Brava top mount, the others are all a coupe mount.

Nope - checked both of them. There is more play in the back right (which has neutral camber) - the rear arms are not causing any issues right now, or knocking noises etc.

it is the bearing in the arms that collapse. Both my rear wheels on my coupe have some serious negative camber, which killed my rear tyres in about 2k

Here's some pics:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Rideheight.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Overheadview1.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Overheadview.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/gazinstallation1.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Frontrightmount.jpg

front left not central on mount:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Frontleftmount.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Fontrighttopmount.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/Adjustment.jpg

Nice Gaz mechanic in santa outfit:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/salinxmasoutfit.jpg

Love the last picture there Si

Ah ok I see what they have done now, They've used the original top mount and spring cup and just reduced the spring at the bottom to fit the coilover.

Not sure how that works on a coilover though, the coupe top mount is designed to run an offset spring. Look at a standard or Billy damper and the spring is set with most of it over the wheel and just a little bit on the other side, the top mount angles the spring to fit like that and it also rotates around the pivot angle.

I thought they were going for a true 2 1/4 inch or 2.5 inch coilover ?

Thanks Jim - all stuff that I'll pass on to balance and gaz....

Ok - my top mounts were definately the wrong way round (thanks Kenno for help with diagnosing on boxing day!) They are now the right way round, and the front left spring has been relocated (I'm fairly sure that Gaz did not locate it properly when they put the kit on). The camber issue on the front is most certainly caused by the ride height being too high, and the wishbne angle being wrong. Springs that are a good one and a half inches shorter all round should solve this....we're getting there!

OK - some more work done on this. I've looked at the negative camber on one of the rears:

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=539757#Post539757

Gaz have sent me a set of new springs that are an inch shorter at the front and an inch and a half shorter at the back.

The fronts went on yesterday. I had to grind one of the springs slightly to get it to sit right on the damper.... all fine now, but with the ride height adjuster at the bottom of the damper (lowers the ride height) the spring is too short to locate in the top mount - if I screw the adjuster up the damper so that the spring locates properly (1 inch travel) then I'm right back where I started in terms of the ride height, but just with a shorter spring.....

I guess this is not so much of an issue when the spring is under load as I can adjust the coilover accordingly, however if I put it where I want it surely the spring would come out of its mounting if the suspension ever got to full droop - e.g. big pothole or front end leaving the ground?

Correct thats why most coil overs have tender springs so that in full droop they dont come away. Otherwise reduce the amount of droop - pretty sure I mentioned that way back, especially for the rears. Do you get the feeling that Gaz arent really hitting the mark on this job?

In hard cornering the inside wheel may experince large droop if the body rolls too much.

Rich

Si, have they switched to proper coilover springs yet, like 60/65mm diameter ones or still using large diameter springs?

Rich - there's no problem at the back - only the fronts.

Thanks for the info - in case anyone else is wondering what a tender spring is then see:

http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/susp-tech/springs/index.htm

With regard to Gaz they are putting stuff together based on what Julian at balance and I are telling them. Their manufacturing place does not have access to tracking kit etc. so all of that is up to me - and it's easier for me to fit the springs than to take the car to them. I have not paid a penny for the kit yet, so I really can't complain.

I've had a go at dropping the front a touch without the springs coming away from the mounts - will go for a test later and see how it goes.

Si, why are GAZ still going with the standard top mount and that large spring ? A coilover spring in 2.5" or 2.25" will cure all these problems and let you select your spring rate and length of spring with no dislodging problems. Thier persistance with that weird spring is admirable but crazy when a true coilover is the better solution.

They could use a proper spring, give the valving a wide range and allow the same kit to be available in a oroad or track application. Saving the OE top mount doesnt really save anything.

Suba can you get a tender to go at the lower end of the spring - you'll need a cup platform to keep it all in line.

Rich

I'd have it up and running just as Si wants it, just give me 2 hours and £100 to get the bits

? Jimbo - you offering to 'fix' my car for me?

Rich - will ask Balance if this is on the cards, though as it is at the moment I dont see it being too much of a problem.

Hello all. again thanks for effort put into this Simon. I agree re coilover, tender and top mount so will put this into play - anyone got an old top mount lying about?
thanks
Julian

I'll get hold of one Julian.

Si/BMS, look at a fiat Bravo mount, I've got an old one you have to look at (the bearing is a bit noisey to actually use), they are a much better design for a coilover.

Jimbo - would a Bravo top mount be a suitable upgrade for normal MacPherson struts?

pretty sure mine are a bit tired now, so considering my options for replacement

Would be nice to get some adjustables, but I don't reckon there's enough clearance between the spring and the inner wing to make any difference

doesn't matter too much whether it's coop or brava as we are going to see if we can get an eccentric top mount designed. if not then I will go the bravo route. Unless you think people would prefer bravo mounts? Anyone know how much they are for a pair?

pretty sure that a decent adjustable top mount would sell very well - its a far more reliable (and probably safer) way of getting some extra negative camber than using camber bolts

However, from memory, the clearance between the spring and the inner wing is already limited - I'm not sure how much adjustment you could build in

Unless you use coilover type springs with a small diameter and then there will be plenty of room...

Nigel, No the Bravo mount won't work with normal McPhearson strut, it works on the coilover because it uses a spherical bearing so it allows the strut to sit at an angle that the normal coupe mount doesn't.

BMS, bravo mounts are £60 from fiat each. Eccentric top mounts would be nice but I can't see how it would work without going for a smaller diameter spring ?

Item 5 is the spherical bearing top mount

Bravo spring is smaller at the top than a coupe spring

I'd plump for more caster and do the camber on bolts personally. Depends on tyres and whether track use or not but 1-1.5 deg neg is all you need for general use. for list 1b (eg R888) 2.5 deg prob right. however caster is king on fwd!

agree we will need to use a normal coilover spring

Edited my post with a link to Fiat ePER BMS shows the bravo mount.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/lastscan-1.jpg

Here's the latest tracking sheet. Even with the camber bolts set to the max I can't get the camber that I want, so it looks like a custom top mount is the way to go.

had a play in second gear though on a dry road at full boost, to torque steer at all, and no wheelspin.

anyone know what the factory caster setting is supposed to be? anyone know what their caster is with Bravo top mount?
thanks
Julian

Standard
FRONT
caster: 3 deg 30 minutes +-30 minutes.
camber: -40 minutes +- 30 minutes


REAR
camber: -1 deg +- 30 minutes
toe: 0.5mm +- 2mm

I'll let you know as soon as receive some 2.5" top spring cups that fit the Bravo mount BMS, might even drive up to Leda in a few weeks to get it sorted but I'll let you know.

Si your rear camber is in tolerance for leaving the factory !

Phew - I thought I may have had some bent bits on the car since I bought it!

Some feedback from Testing at North Weald airfield - surface was too friggin bumpy for me to get any kind of feedback:

bounce bounce, spin spin spin on the front with no more than a bar of boost.

I think that the turn in could also be sharper, but the front camber is still not yet right, so no real suprise there.

I really need to get the car on a proper track in order to do some more testing somewhere nice and smooth.

Not sure whether people are aware but Suba is selling his coupe before we got a chance for him to properly nail it on circuit. His initial kit used the standard mount but this was soon proved inadequate. We refitted with new mounts at Gaz but then the problem was corner weights and camber were still out. Simon came to visit us and we set the car up however we were running out of time owing to a late start - We got to 7pm with 50% crossweight - but not quite enough negative on one side, we tried for more and of course that then threw our tracking out by this point neither I nor Simon had any time left ! I am hoping Simon will be able to report some more on road driving but i know he's not keen to push the car at present on track.

The kit is now finalised for sale including top mounts.
We can supply with a max caster mount (which requires some metal removal to rear of strut tower) or a mount which slots straight in but runs standard caster.

As you probably know Marco is running a 2 way setup on the front in Time Attack.

I'd really like to see if after a long and sometimes fraught development process people might be interested in some sort of group buy?

Gaz Gold Coilover Kit Fiat Coupe

thanks
Julian

Hi Julian.

I did manage to set the car up right in the end, and the result was very impressive on the road - it's a damn shame I never managed to play around with it on the track properly.

Nobby now has my Gaz suspension and top mounts on his car. The last I heard was that he was getting it all setup right - I'll get him to post on this thread.

I am now running FK silverlines on my coupe, and compared to the gaz stuff they are pants. They do not handle anywhere near as well, and they are bruisingly crashy in comparison - even with the Gaz dampers turned up quite high.

it's a shame the development took so long, but the end product was worth it. I also have to say a huge thank you to BMS for the work that he put into it - he was always willing to help on the phone, and put up with my endless phone calls and emails.

Just a quickie

Initial impression of the GAZ stuff is that its brilliant gear. Even after only unbolting them from subas car and fitting the coilovers onto my car there is an immense difference. I've adjusted the height (lower a little) as my car was running a tiny bit high, the big wheels that Suba has compensates and my standard wheels look tiny in the arches Its probably running near standard ride height now.

The road holding is just so much better than my coupe has ever been before. I'm currently running with the gaz coilovers and top mounts, eibach ARBs from and back, LE strut brace and 'Nigels' lower brace, plus a strengthened rad support mount.

I'm gonna be getting my full alignment done on friday at Monkfish performance - will be running a set up just like Subas. Still have camber bolts to fit plus I think I will buy rear arm repair kits to make sure everything is spot on.

I will report back more on friday

Chris

I've got two rear arm repair kits if you want them Chris.

You have PM (D'oh! - more spending )

Chris, what size ID and length and also rate spring are the Gaz units running, from what I have read they are almost identical to my Leda units so you can fit a shorter spring to get the ride height you want.
I'll send you a link to the ERS catalogue if you like, its even more spending though

Nooooooooooooooooooooo...........

Jimbo - haven't a clue, but I'll find out.

I dont know either - I left all of that up to Julian, and just gave him feedback during the development process.

He knows that you now have the kit - so feel free to call him, or email him - the address is on their website (google balance motorsport)

Hi
i have the rates available. from now on helper springs will also be provided for those that want the lower ride height and prevent the possibility of spring dislocation. again though as evidenced by Suba's car, the car does grip better and handle better at std ride height (unless other mods are made to alter roll centre and bumpsteer)

total rate
RT - road/track
FRONT SPRING 425
REAR SPRING 375

TR - track/road
VARIOUS COMBOS IN THIS KIT TO WORK WITH TYRES FROM LIST 1B UP TO SLICK


thanks

Julian

did anyone watch those mainly italian drag races posted on here ? original panda ran a 12.5 qtr !

anyone interested in getting some kind of group buy running?
thanks

Julian - I can start one if you like. Any idea on prices and numbers needed? You still have my number right?

thanks Suba that would be good. current retail of the kit £950 mounts £250 = £1200
available on the site today for £1075 (thought this might get a few sold!)
if we can get 5 kits then we could do £1021 and 10 kits £960 inc vat.
thanks
Julian

Do you want me to put this in the group buy section?

Sure - maybe a new thread as well with some feedback from you as you have used the kit too.