Just as a note, in every installation I have done, on any vehicle, no matter how long the car is run for, and varying boost pressures, when you open the bonnet and put your hand on the chargecooler, it is cold to the touch. Not even mildly luke warm, actually cold. Even on a car that has 60-70 degrees standard underbonnet temperatures.

This is how it should always be, but will only be like this if you follow my specific installation procedures.

So the problem is installation based then, ie where you have sited it...by your own admission above.;)

But then you are also basically saying, that this CC absorbs more heat and heats the charge more than if you just replaced it with a piece of straight pipe, even though it water flowing through it, even running no boost.

Can you see my point, even Newton would be puzzled at this one.:)

Thanks

David

I have yet to come across an off the shelf cooler that works as it should. Only a race spec type, bespoke built ever works.
Of all the coolers fitted as standard to cars, the only one that is effective, are the Evo types.
Pace, Pro Alloy and others are just poor IMO.

Andy.

Well i did mention that to them, but they said they had no complaints from the evo owners (who are the main market). I didnt wanna argue as i was getting my money back. I did compare the cores and it was considerably different design, with the original being better.

Ross

a lot of factors make things work not work,a good few of us fitted the pace chargecooler,and and the only `real` flaw in them,is the fact they are not good for those running over 300bhp because they start to restrict airflow,I am of course only talking about the pace one as thats the one we have had plenty of experience with............BUT most of us who fittd then went with the pace side mount IC too...which on it`s own probably not great but worked ok with the chargecooler..................after any run in the car,the chargecooler body on my car was always really cold..it did warm up after sitting in traffic,but was not long in cooling down once on the move

Yes, thats right, Im not going to go into the specifics of certain brands here (there is a write up on my site - http://www.advancedvehicletuning/avtanat.htm) but the Pace core is an intercooler core made in reverse, ie, the water travels down where the boost usually flows on a standard intercooler, and the charge is now blown through what used to have outside forced air rushing through it (which doesnt have to be an efficient design as the faster you go, the more air is pushed - but not good for forced induction)

Hence why at high CFM this type of core will hold back flow. Some of them are also multiple cores welded together, so there is no consistancy of flow.

David

Yes, I agree, hence why I am able to acheive such good results. None of the parts I supply are vehicle specific (or kit based as such) as I find any company that has produced a vehicle specific kit usually has to work with compromises to suit the greater good, ease of installation etc... The problem is compromises do not reap good results, especially with something as critical as water to air cooling

All the parts I supply require you to have some logic and skill in fabrication and installation techniques, hence bespoke to your application, and thus the best results (if you know what you are doing)

Thanks

David

Does winning LeMans count?

Andy.

lol, no..the best person to ask would be (worst case) a plumber, (best case) a fluid specialist. This is all water flow and heat transfer, not mechanics

Cheers

David

Just for info: I have a PACE chargecooler (and 2 prerads with fans) and an FMIC. I get pretty cold inlet temps however I've been wondering exactly how restrictive they are.

In the new year I intend on running back to back tests with the chargecooler fitted and then replaced with a straight pipe.

Chris

mines is coming out(and no it`s not gay ) after the `latest` re build

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Christmas and NY kind of got in the way and I knew I needed a fair bit of time to answer this one.

<<You have just said in your own words - the water gets warm.>>

Of course it gets warm, it's taking the heat away from the CC, if it stayed cold it wouldn't be doing anything at all would it? This quote of mine was in reply to your assumption that I have an installation problem.

<<By that very statement, if the water is getting warm, then we can say the core is doing a very good job of removing heat from the charge (hence how can the water get warm) and likewise if it is staying warm, then logically we can say the rest of your system is not doing a very good job of keeping the water cool.>>

Not really, you don't know exactly how warm the water is getting, it is only doing a mediocre job of cooling the intake charge. It isn't staying warm, the rad is cooling it down. When the water runs through the core it only picks up a slight temp increase from the inlet to the outlet showing that the core just isn't up to the job of transferring he heat effectively enough.

<< Ref, whether Norris is currently using the core or not, there are faster and more powerful similar cars shown on the gallery. >>
Norris are racing the car (circuit) which is why they don't use a CC, they are no good in this situation and are more suited to drag racing where the heat build up is sudden and short lived before it can be transferred and cooled down.

Engine bay temps are irrelevant in a CC debate, it's charge air temps you need to measure, this is what is important.

We can argue this all year, anyone can quote figures. The bottom line is this: If you are seeing these temps then prove it - take some film footage and put it on youtube. I would like to see charge air temp before and after the CC and also water temp before and after too, if you can do this then I will be a little more satisfied and you will have proved your product is better than I think it is.

I think here you are either just taking the piss, stupid, or have completely missed the idea of a chargecooler.
The heat that heats up the core is coming from the charge air going through it, NOT the surrounding components. The outside of it doesn't get warm, I am measuring the charge air temp.

It seems you are trying to teach me to suck eggs

You said that you were seeing elevated charge temps when the car was running NO boost. You have just said the core is heated up from the charge going through it.

You are saying the core is getting hot, and staying hot.

For the sake of repeating myself, the radiator, pump, tank etc do the job of keeping the core cool...

So, once again, how is this the fault of the core?

You can't have it both ways. You can't on one hand tell me that the core is innefficient at absorbing heat from the charge that it doesnt cool it, and then on the other hand tell me that it absorbs so much heat it heats the incoming charge on no boost...

So, you are saying engine bay temps will in no way affect the header tank, the outside of the core, the inlet to the turbo, any boost hoses, any water pipes and the pre-radiator..

So people who add vents to bonnets of cars or lag any pipework/manifolds are just wasting their time?

End of the day, it was just likely to have an installation error, its nothing to be ashamed of, its easily done. Even Norris's setup was not correctly designed as the header tank was lower that the top of the core.

The reason why I can quote these figures, Is I use and install this exact equipment for customers and tell them what temperatures to expect, and none have come back with any issues or complaints, or not as expected. I have one customer that did a back to back comparison by replacing a Pace core, and was seeing only 10 degrees above ambient, at 20psi, on extended runs, WOT, instant temperature recovery, and using two gauges, one either side of the core (SPA) and then swapping them over with probes to discount any anomalies to get unbiased test figures. Much of this is documented on forums....Such as this one...I noticed there are two other people using the units and getting satisfactory results.

Can I ask, was your chargecooler cooler core ever actually 'COLD' to the touch, even after extended boost use?

Cheers

David

No, Norris did not have a traditional CC setup as it ran no pre-rad and just a ice tank. This is ONLY designed for drag use.

Any anyway, the thing that determines how successful a CC system will be for extended track use, once again is the cooling system, not the actual core, and hence components, placement, system design etc.

Its the same as if you fitted your engine radiator in the boot of your car, or ran it low on water, or pulled the belt off the water pump....no one would blame the engine for overheating, so why would you blame a CC core for getting hot?

Cheers

Dave

Why are they not good for racing? Water has a much higher (4x) specific heat capacity and so it has more capability to absorb the heat from the charge in the first place - especially at low speeds where an air-to-air intercooler is not saturated by ambient air. In racing there is still ample opportunity for the water rad to be cooled. I think the only reason they are not good for racing is if they are not well designed.

Does this chargecooler have a bar and plate or tube and fin arrangement internally? or other

Yes, hence why we prefer to use water to cool engines than air..

This is the inside of the core. Its a one piece cast aluminium extrusion (much like a heat sink) so no weak braized or welded points. Hence why it can handle such high pressures. Some of the drag applications are handling 40psi plus.

http://www.advancedvehicletuning.co.uk/pwrint.jpg

(Why do the img tags not work on here?)

You're right about water taking on heat very easily, but the downside is that it doesn't give up that heat very well, for instance: Drop a piece of red hot metal into a beaker of water, the water heats up instantaneously, try to cool it down by leaving it outside in the cold and wind and it will take minutes to cool down, no matter what you do with the water it will not cool as quickly as it was heated.

In order for a CC to get anywhere near as efficient as a good air-air unit it needs a lot of water and a huge cooling rad. This means that the weight is a disadvantage. Also your rad needs to be 100% efficient, (IE water enters warm and leaves equalling ambient) which of course does not exist, everytime the water does a full circuit it picks up more heat from the CC, but doesn't loose all of it before going back, so in a situation of constant high boost you get an accumulative effect.

The cooler we are discussing is tube and fin, David posted a link to a pic earlier:
http://www.advancedvehicletuning.co.uk/pwrint.jpg

Water does cool as quickly as it is heated if it is cooled by as much as it is heated. So in your example if you drop water into a -200c vat then it will cool as fast as it will heat. The relative temperature between the water temperature and the ambient temperature will govern how quickly it will cool. It is exactly the same as an air-to-air intercooler. The difference is only that water can more easily saturate and absorb the heat than air can and therefore is more effective at removing the heat from the charge.
The same limitations exist between an air-to-air and an air-to-water cooling mechanisms in terms of efficiency, the difference is that water can sink a lot more heat more easily than air or indeed metal (as used in a bar and plate intercooler) which is why it has a higher specific heat capacity. Just like when water stays above ambient even though it has been pumped around the metal in the intercooler stays above ambient. You are limited with a air-to-air intercooler to the volume of air to saturate it at any point in time whereas for an air-to-water you should not be and that should be able to average it out.

anyway for me the whole benefit of chargecooler is an extremely short and efficient run between the turbo and the inlet. That will reduce lag substantially and improve responsiveness and overall power through the efficiency of that run. If there is a downside that after a few laps I drop the water and put some more in I'd be happy to do that as at the moment my intercooler water spray lasts about 5 minutes

But this is the exact point of a well designed system. You need an efficient rad (ie aluminium of a good design) but it doesnt have to be 100% efficient, as we said, water has a SHC 4 times higher than air, so warmer water can absorb more heat then colder air), the radiator has to be ALWAYS fan assisted, the pipework in the system for the water cooling has to be as long as possible.

Other points people miss are that the cold water from the rad has to go into the throttle body end of the core, not the turbo end (only applicable on this type of core), and the header tank must be on the cold side of the system and directly preceding the chargecooler.

Thats right, thats simple physics. See how long it takes to boil a kettle and how much energy it takes, then pour that boiling water into a radiator, and watch how fast it cools.



If you drop a red hot poker into a bucket of water, the water does NOT heat up instantaneously(!). Specific heat content is the fact of how much energy is required to raise the temperture of a substance 1 degree. Water is third highest in the chain, below Ammonia and Liquid Hydrogen. Even ice is below water..

Cheers

David

I disagree, with a CC it uses the same water over and over again, if the rad isn't 100% efficient (which it can't be) it will get warmer and warmer. A CC depends on a cool down period which when fitted to a drag or road car it will usually get, it won't on a race circuit.

An air -air unit on the other hand is constantly being fed air which is cooler than the intake charge, there is no recycling and you are never going to run out of air to push into it!

To quote an expert on intercooling:

"It also became apparent after a couple of years testing that I had to down grade my initial cooling estimates of air/water intercooling, which is a disappointment, but necessary. I thought that I could design a system that at speed, would cool the charge air within 4ºc of a front mount - both systems being equally engineered. It appears 8 to 12 ºc is a real world figure. Please put this into perspective. A 'front mount' car - Skyline GTR, 180 - 200 Sx, Supra etc. will give results on a 25ºc day of 31 - 36ºc into the plennum. An air/water setup will give 42 - 48ºc under the same circumstances."

Taken from here: http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/airwaterinter.htm

Which also has this page here:
http://www.are.com.au/products/oilcoolers.htm

Now go down the page till you get to:
Our Oil Cooler Tube Development story

And you will see a familiar core (PWR). So while chargecooler.co.uk are slagging off other companies using air to air cores for their CCs PWR are producing oil coolers and air coolers using the very same core.....

Ah, I wondered why all cars made to date can only be driven for a short while untill the engine overheats and you have to stop....

Your getting confused. No one is saying a CC system will be ultimately better than an air to air...But an air to air to be at its best needs as much air flow as possible (hence why you see bumpers cut out etc, large cores) where as a water cooled system can run close to that efficiency with limited space and air flow to the radiator.

Cheers

David

This is an interesting discussion. I *think* I understand what both parties are trying to say.

Basically as far as i understand it...

FMIC - cooler than CC but laggier and space intensive.

CC - Shorter route/less laggy but doesnt cool aswell as FMIC but can be used in smaller space?

Ross

Why must a pre rad be ALWAYS fan assisted? What even at 70mph?
As to your other pointers on good installation, I can tick all the boxes, I did my homework and over a long period of time before fitting the kit, I didn't enter this debate with my head up my ass either believe me, I wouldn't have spoken out if I wasn't sure of my facts.

So your happy to come into the pits, drop the water, refill, bleed off and go back out again every few laps? Well that's ok for you, I prefer a more effective, less time consuming and simpler approach.