Where are you going to find a vat of -200'c liquid to cool your chargecooler water?

Of course the water heats when a piece of red hot metal is dropped into it, the metal cools instantly, so where does the heat go? Out of the window? Timbuktoo? Taken away by magic? It's transferred to the water which heats up, it may only go up by 1'c (depends on amount of water and size of heat element) but it will heat up.

Lets just for one moment accept what you say is true, that the metal does not heat the water instantly. Maybe this is why your CC core doesn't work very well, because there is no heat transfer from the core to the water?

That's just silly and goes to prove how little you know about engines, an engine by design has a peak efficiency at a certain temp (lets say it's 80'c) so it must be kept at this temp, anything above and below it is detrimental to the performance and longetivity of it.
So in effect the fact that a car rad is far from 100% efficient works in the cars favour, IE, it is keeping it at a certain temp, not completely cooling it, a car rad may have only a 30'c difference between it's inlet and outlet.

I was being flippant

Your efficiency question is not really applicable because you cannot suddenly have 100mph worth of ambient air at 10mph whereas with a water-to-air intercooler you will always have an excess of water near ambient temperatures.

I'm not confused and there are lots of people around who think that water coolers are as efficient as air-air.

CCs DO need a good flow of air aswell - to cool the water rad. In this case they have an advantage in that if your car is rear engined you can take the heat somewhere other than the engine bay to cool it down.

Sorry!



Ok, fair comment, but your CC is no good if the water you are pumping through it is warm, which it will be at standstill (and when moving if your rad isn't big enough).

Interestingly air-air coolers also have a knock-on-effect of heat transfer, a delay if you will, before the intake temps rise to danger levels. This is why the majority of intercooler water sprays are useless - the driver has no idea when to activate it.
There is a good article about it on Autospeed, who also produced an excellent water spray controller which as far as I know is the only one of it's kind in the world. I have one, but am selling it because I don't need it due to the efficiency of my own FMIC.

David,

I can understand why you argue your point so vehemently, your business depends on your product being accepted and sold.
I on the otherhand have nothing to lose, apart from looking daft for buying a product which does not work very well.

Like I said earlier, if you can prove by way of film footage and temp probes on the inlets and outlets of both the water and air orifices then I will take a different view. You have declined to do this.

As the forum saying goes: "Without hard and visible facts, you're just another guy on a forum with an opinion"

No, I argue the point as you have only done one installation and failed, and I have done tens, and have hundreds of customers with the same equipment and similar results.

Its like you telling someone their car cannot do 150mph, when they have just done 160 on GPS, and so have their friends.

You are trying to argue a point to me which I and many others have witnessed with their own eyes. Even on this very thread there are two people that have acheived lower intake temperatures than you acheived on the same car.

Are we all lying, or involved in some kind of mass hysteria?

I can't believe you have the gaul to bait me, as if I do show you evidence, its going to make all of your arguments completely irrelevant, make you out to look like you don't know what you are doing, and anybody should disregard anything in future that you have to say on the subject. Do you want me to do this?

Basically you are adamant from your single installation and poor results, that you are definitively right, and all the other thousands of people running the gear across the world are wrong. Is this your standing?

Cheers

David

this thread is providing entertainment value far beyond that of its original purpose!

Heres some more mass hysteria, or just another guy with an opinion on a forum, or some blatent lies maybe... Make your own mind up..;)

http://tinyurl.com/2g2p4z

I have more though...

Wow...I never ever thought my original post would cause such a fuss! Its good to hear about something other than front mounts though!

I wonder if Mr Chargecooler can come up with something thats shows how good his coolers are...that would be fantastic

And give us coop owners the nerve to go a different route.

Many thanks to John, grale and of course the above for their input...right...back to the debate

More independant test results.

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=16677&highlight=degrees#16677

http://tinyurl.com/2g2p4z

Im not here to try and tell the world that a CC system (ie mine) is the definitive solution and the best for everyone, but just to disregard Grale's comments that it is 'crap and mediocre'.

End of the day there are 1500bhp drag cars on my site running the gear, 900bhp EVOs running 9 second terminals. You do not make 900bhp and quick drag times with 'crap' gear, and Im sure they themselves did enough testing with FMIC's and CC systems to warrant their choice.

Cheers

David

Thats what I thought when I saw the site...all those cars with big power running your kit and looked sooooo nice too

Am I right in thinking no coupe owner has used your CC and if so how much would one be to purchase? Would u need to develop one?

Sorry if these are silly questions

Hi

I do not develop 'kits'. Its better to have everything to customised for your application. The reason why is one you develop a kit, you need to cut corners, or compromise for the greater good/ease of fitment/cost and I always believe to get the best of of a CC system, you have to do everything properly and to the best of your ability.

Cheers

David

So every system is unique and individual to that car...gotcha!

Costs involved would be good still...

David

Hi

Just look on the shop section on my site. Its up to you what length/size core you use, and what which radiator (if any) you can fit - you may to have a custom one fabricated)

Cheers

David

Well there not a lot of IQ on the r5 site, one of the guy's doesnt believe cooling air would reduce its pressure across a cooling core. Idiot. Perhaps he should have a look in AG Bell's book.

Rich

Not everyone knows everything. Though its the most technical orientated forum I frequent, with the most consistantly fastest FWD cars in the country.

Dave

Why did u edit your post to add "with the most consistantly fastest FWD cars in the country"

Ross

Just to illustrate that the CC is being used in some very fast applications for serious drag use, not just normal turbo applications, ie, some of the R5s, and if I hadnt have written FWD above it would have looked like I was talking gibberish.

Dave

...and charge temps and underbonnet temps for them is a serious issue as most people know.

Have you got any back to back test on the same car FMIC to CC?

Ross

He switched to the Pace (then my unit) as it was better results than his FMIC. But then he ran a standard unmodified bumper, so who is to say the FMIC would be getting the optimum airflow.

The R5 fraternity have done alot of testing over various FMIC's over the standard intercooler, and not found any gains, but he did gain when switching to the CC.

This particular car is a well known low 12 second drag/circuit car and has a variety of products tested on it.

Cheers

Dave

But there was notably one poster who was adamant about his point which was incorrect, well in the couple of pages I could see.

If you like technical forums can I point you in the direction of http://www.guy-croft.com perhaps you may find that interesting.

Rich

Oh no not guy croft..that bloke just confuses me

In regards to what size/type core and rad if needed..I wouldnt have a scooby doo! That would need to be decided by one of the more technically brilliant on here.....like carlt,rog or one of the big power boys

Its very simple. The bigger the better, but core length is more important than width upto the max CFM each core can take.

Dave

Whatever I could fit But doesnt bigger usuually mean more lag or is that just front mounts?

Anything that would mean equal or better performance than just bolting on a big front mount

If your pipework from turbo outlet to inlet manifold is 20", then what is better, 6" of it being CC, or 10"? Because your not routing your 'intercooling' down to the front of the car, the pipework is always shorter than a FMIC system, hence you want the CC to as long as possible in it.

Cheers

Dave

Quick question for you: How many intercoolers (air or water) are you running on your car? Are you running the PWR on its own or with another cooler?

You wouldn't get an interesting debate like this on the GC site, the first post alone would have broken so many rules it would have been locked, deleted and the person repremanded.

It isn't a forum either it's a dictatorship, a forum is a place for open debate.

Well, seeing as its his own forum, he has the right to post what he wants - he hasn't broken any rules, because he sets the rules.

The difference on his forum is that his forum members accept that he knows what he's on about.

A debate only tends to occur when there are differences of opinion - the simple fact is that on this forum, there are lots of people with a modest amount of knowledge. On the GC forum, there's one chap with more knowledge about engines than all of us lot put together.

Quite simply, on his forum, people listen, rather than talk.

And for the record, I ran a Pace CC for about a year. It ALWAYS reduced chargetemps (compared with an intercooler on its own) when the car was moving at more than about 20mph. In very slow traffic, the coolant volume and the size of the pre-rad (and the fact it wasn't fan assisted) meant that chargetemps would creep up as the coolant was warmed up. I could easily see 40 - 50 degrees in traffic. However, after a mile or two of normal driving, the chargetemps would be back down again.

Any chargecooler requires a flow of air through the pre-rad to be effective - if that flow is reduced, so will the cooling efficiency. Similarly, the core's efficiency will be reduced if there is insufficient coolant, or if the pump is not doing its job properly (have you checked the voltage at the pump?)

My Pace jobbie was OK, but I ended up buying a second pre-rad to help it out.

Here's the acid test - wire up the CC pump to a switch in the car - drive at a certain throttle opening for a set period of time, and monitor the chargetemps. Now turn off the CC and repeat the exercise - my guess is that the temps will be higher without the CC - if it isn't, you have a fundamental problem - even a badly installed CC will take SOME heat out of the charge, as long as the coolant isn't already heat-saturated.