Just looking at them now...I really want one! But wouldnt know where to start I think my posts maybe getting lost in this mine field also!

I never said this?


No, you've misread, the coolant goes in at the top, out at the bottom.


Yes, I can agree with this, but the water is circulating - just not 100%, maybe there is air in there somewhere, (the coolant is getting past it) I've just got to find out where and how to relieve it.
Yes, apart from the pipe feeding it the pump is at the lowest point, it's below the swirlpot (SP) and shoots the water straight into the underside of it, the outlet is by the side of it (in the bottom) so it cannot draw air.
The sequence is: CC - Rad - pump - SP - CC. As far as I know the pump both pushes and pulls, I asked the question earlier, but got no reply. David should know, he sells them.
I'll have a poke around, see what I can come up with and report back.

Right.

Firstly, what target power were you aiming for. The thing with choosing the CC core is asking yourself if your making power with high boost or low boost, and it goes back to my point about CFM. If you target HP is 300bhp, but you need high boost to acheive it, as in your case, then you need as long a core as possible, as you are trying to cool high charge temps that are moving fast. If you have a bigger engine that runs lower boost, then a shorter core is fine.

Am I right in saying your running a 6x6? If so that is only 6" of core length trying to cool 1.5 bar of boost. You probably would have had better results with a 4x10, with an extra 4" of cooling length.

Regarding the installation, you may as well pull it all out and start again, or if you can't change it to the way Im going to instruct, then you might as well live with it, or change. Any compromises will result in higher charge temps.

Firstly your header tank and water level in the tank MUST be at the highest point in the system, higher than any CC, or hose point. I can see that your tank is below the scuttle panel level, and the water level is a bit below that, yet you have the white angle connected with your temp probe in at a higher point.

Any air from the swirl pot/headertank is RISING from the tank to that highpoint and collecting, and even worse, you are taking a temperature measurement from this point - if there is air there it is wholy inaccurate.

Then you have this water with air in it trying to be forced DOWN again (not good) into the top of the CC, so you are collecting air at the highst point in the CC. Once again, with your water flow, your trying to push it down the core, and once again air will not travel downwards. Basically, you have a big build up of air in the top of the core and the rightangled pipe, and in either directions, the air cannot get out as the pipes go DOWN either side of this point.

Next, why is your CC black? The come polished for a reason. Colours radiate heat in the exact same amount as they aborb. Black absorbs all and radiates all. A mirror absorbs none and radiates none. But you need to take into account the surroundings. I have said that the cores will always be cold to the touch when pumping water, so this means that the water in the core will ALWAYS be colder than the engine bay temperatures. So likewise, there is no heat to radiate from the core, only to absorb from the bay. You MUST have that core polished again.

Pipework, again, black pipework will just absorb heat (especially on the cold side of the rad) so switch for clear and you will also be able to see your air locks too.

Radiator - This is not one of mine or reccommended by PWR. Its smaller than advised, and I can't tell if its a good aluminium design. This rad needs to be as efficient as possible. Once again with colour, if your water temps in the rad are lower than the ambient temps in the engine bay, then it can only absorb, not radiate heat.

You also should always run a fan on the rad, otherwise how is the water going to cool when at slow speeds and aid recovery. Weve said in the past that CC's are good for drag because they have instant cooling whereas a FMIC needs airflow to get to maximum efficiciency, well its no different with the pre-rad. We are trying to get water temps as low as possible, so it needs constant cooling.

Pump. The pump MUST be the lowest point in the system, and pumping cold water, because its denser, less likely to have air in it, and its better for the pump. The pump does NOT pull. It is a pusher only, it is not self priming. So it needs a weight of water behind it - if it doesnt get this is will surge and pump air around again.

So in summary, get the tank above everything, try and get the CC low and straight, get it polished, get a better rad, fit a fan, move the pump, and change the pipework (also, you can upgrade to 25mm pipework which will increase your pipe system volume by 70%)

EDIT : If you are, do NOT use a swirl pot with an inlet at the bottom and outlet at the top. All this means is if the water level sloshes around when driving past the top point, the CC system just takes a big suck of air from the top of the tank and sends it round the system. The tanks I supply have inlet and outlet at the bottom, so the water flows through as it should, and any air simply goes upwards to the top of the tank.

EDIT 2 : Just to add, your swirlpot and 'coldside black' piping is situated between a red hot turbo, and a hot water radiator, so again, that will pick up heat. I hope the swirl pot isnt black too.....

Cheers

Dave

This is a good read on the Alpine forum regarding various customers with CC's talking about installation, and helping a guy with a Renault Turbo2 get his charge temps down to under 30c.

Various people talk about the same points I outlined above.

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/p...r=asc&start=195

Gralecoupe - yes, I misread the coolant flow direction through your core, sorry.

If it had been the way I thought it was, there would have been little or no coolant movement at all. As it is, you probably just have a significant volume of air in there.

BTW - a solution I took to expelling ALL the air was to build the system almost entirely off the car (which allows you to site the compnents at the correct level AND bleed all the air through). Fitting is then a bit of a pain, as you have to remove and refit engine bay objects that you would otherwise simply have threaded a coolant hose under.

Its not as bad as it sounds though - I had to remove a few intake hoses, the front bumper and grille and I had to disconnect a good few cables. However, the end result was essentially a "sealed" system that was ONLY filled with coolant.

Can you slap a purge cap on the header like the coupe coolant system has so it can bleed itself if there is excess pressure (caused by trapped air)

The tanks I sell have that.

I must raise this point though that the temperature probes/displays used in that video are as good as toffee, and you can't get any reading with ANY accuracy from what they display.

On that video, the car runs from a standing start and keeps accellerating and then backs off. From start the temperature is 43c, he then continues accellerating for about 20 seconds to the point he backs off whre it reads 83c, but then the temps keeps rising upto 101c for 10 seconds after he has backed off running no boost and still only falls to a low of around 96c, still off boost...

So how can you work out what peak temperature it reached when 'on boost'?

Cheers

David

ahhh, progress, light at the end of the tunnel

The sequence I have on mine is:
Swirl pot (highest point) bottom hose to
Pump (Lowest point)
Prerads
CC
Swirl pot top hose

With your special custom rad

This thread is now getting interesting, please let it run begbie.

Rich

The pump is cavitating-sucking air, i assume not a self priming item? The pump should be fitted down low so its always gravity fed. Only then can you start and bleed any air locks out. Is the filler/header of a swirl pot design?
Dump the black paint too, that will soak up huge amounts of heat. As has been said, install it properly then pass comment after.

Well work took over and I only got chance to have a look at the system this weekend. I studied closely what was going on for some time before realising the only minor problem was that the system is sealed 100%, this meant that it was pulling all the water into the swirlpot and causing a low point (of air) in the highest pipe, this was because gravity couldn't do its job and vacuum was present in the system.

I replaced the white plastic elbow in the pic with a Y piece and some pipe, then filled the system full.
There was water running round it before, it's just that it had to run through some air in the pipe that made it surge and sound odd, now it was perfect, all I could hear was the pump running.

Out for a test and it still gave around the same figures.

I stripped it all out and fitted the air-air cooler back in and saw an immediate and massive reduction in air temps, I tested this (OE) cooler before at Donington and it took 4 hard driven laps before it heat soaked and the temp stuck at 65'c, I very much doubt it flows as well as the CC though, but it wasn't noticeable.

17 pages and we're back to square one, I'm happy that I've done all I can now and given it a fair chance, but unless you are fitting this in tandem with another cooler or using it with chilled water in a drag car it isn't much good IMO.

<<Sits back and waits for another barrage of excuses>>

This has to be my last post on the subject, I can say no more, you are not the only ones bored with this thread.

ähhhm.....is it really so difficult to understand ?????


YOUR INSTALLATION IS ABSOLUTELY FAULTY (and looks quite dilettantish to me)!


dave told you in detail what you have to modify to make it run properly. read his post again (page 16) !!!!

you did eliminate ONLY ONE of several faults.....nothing more ! you are far away from being impartial or objective....

you´re happy with your fmic solution...ok fine. but stop blaming on other solutions that will work great too if installed correctly !!!!


macki

Warm pre rad air straight onto the black chargecooler too? Grale, maybe you could fit a sleeve over the cooler with a 10mm air gap all round and feed that sleeve from a scoop at the front, cure the heat soak problem.

Please sort the installation problems, get it to work as it should, then if it doesn't work to your liking you can pass negative comments after. Its not fair to dog someones product when the installation isn't correct??

The only way to eliminate all air is to disonnect charge pipes, remove all components round it then kinda tumble it about slowly as the water circulates till all the air comes out of the system, remount it and connect the charge pipes back up.

Can some one summarize the whole charge cooler VS intercooler for me.

I have a Pace SMCC on mine right now.

Has anyone put a FMCC on the Coupé?

I would suggest reading the thread.
Failing that, I have a couple of good books that I can recommend.

Yes, it's rather amusing Did you ever sort out your "issues"? You can PM me if you prefer BTW I have a proalloy FMIC and TI SIP which replaced the previous Pace SMIC and CC