Having made 215 bhp a good few months ago at The Racing Line, Matt went off to hatch a cunning plan; more power!

After various intercooler / turbo and clutch failures, the plan finally reached fruition this morning at the Headquarters of Dyno Demon, where Matt was having his Apexi AVCR set up. The results?

314 BHP at 1.2 Bar with 300 lb/ft torque.

The operator reckoned there was at least an extra 15 bhp in there (it did 322 bhp at 1.3 bar easily), but erred on the side of caution.

So congratulations matey, it's been a long and sometimes painful journey but the end result surely justifies it.

What boost was that running midrange?

1.2 Bar straight through. Sorry, just re-read that. Not sure but think it'll only be a matter of time before Matt posts up the graphs.

are you Matt's PA ?

Right, I'll post up the graphs when I get home tomorrow, I'm on a laptop at the moment.

spec: GT28R, Blue flame full system 2.75" with V-band adapter, decat, SIP, K&N, Pro Alloy FMIC, Gtec 2, walbro+mod, Apexi AVCR

High setting:

314bhp at 5900rpm (I think it was 266 at the wheels, didnt get that on graph)
300lb/ft at 5000rpm
boost 1.2 bar midrange, 5000-6500 drops to 0.9 bar.

Low Setting:

292bhp at 6500rpm (246 at wheels)
270lb/ft at 5000rpm
boost 0.85 - 0.9 bar all the way

Fuelling was 11 afr at 4000 rpm then gradually up to 11.7 before dropping just under 11 again right at the top.

He did one run at the start at 1.3 bar and it made 322bhp before any tweaking had been done! I decided to run 1.2 bar for extra safety and efficiency.

Everyone there seemed really impressed with how the car performed.

They had to keep getting out and strapping it down tighter because it was trying to escape!

There was easily more in it but I didnt want to push it any closer to the limits of the standard internals

Cheers Craig

Nice one - IMO completely the right approach to have. Nice safe level of power and nice and driveable.

1.2 bar midrange, at 5900 where it's making max power it's only 1 bar.

Nope, just like to see someone who's really been through the wringer with his car smile at the end of it all.

Awesome matey congratulations

Nice result Matt

Any graph?

I will take pictures of the graphs and upload them tomorrow

Will you change the V-band to a 5-stud?

Maybe, but it's staying like this for now. No more money will be spent on it for a while unless it needs it.

well done buddy, now you done a good job on the car lets see if you can fix this boody site

So does this mean you'll be coming along to TOTB?

maybe, if i can afford to fill the tank up by then.

Nice 1 Matt

Well done Matt

Bravo Matt

Bravo Matt.

Torque seems a tad high for that boost level, but im sure it pulls like a train.

When is the turbo kicking in?

Ross

It's been behaving differently on the road than it did on the RR - but I've sorted it now.

On the RR full boost peaked at 1.2 at 3700 rpm, but it spools up faster on the road - about 3200?

The settings that he made which gave 1.2 on the rollers was giving me 1.4 bar on the road, so I've been experimenting on the way back from the midlands meet, the closer it is to 1.2 the faster it is. way faster at 1.2 than 1.4 - he said that would be the case, leave it at 1.2 or it will go COMPLETELY wrong. That's how complicated the AVCR is to set up well.

Graphs on the way...

1. High setting - Flywheel Power and Torque
GRAPH

2. Low setting - Flywheel Power and Torque
GRAPH

3. Both settings - Boost and Fuelling (top right shows power at the wheels on low setting - high was 266)
GRAPH

Matt,

Just looked at your graphs and hate to tell you that they've been ran in the wrong mode. Your car has been ran in Shoot 4F instead of Shoot 5F. The set parameters for each are different. 4F is a dyno mode with paramteters for 4 Cylinder Forced induction cars, 5F being the 5 cylinder forced alternative. This will distort the figures and curves you have.

Jules.

it seems he always runs in 4f mabr,s old one from march going to look for some more now,
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w25/MABR1/graph3.jpg

been looking at loads of dyno graphs now and there all in 4f

Bit of a schoolboy error! but what difference is it going to make?

Not sure but will try and find out, but it does make a difference.

My car is a 6 cylinder forced induction (BMW 335d) so runs in 6F mode here's one of my graphs -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Cyclone04/DMS_Evolve_Flywheelpower_Torque.jpg

Here's one for my old Cerbera V8 (SHOOT 8) on the same type of dyno (Dyno Dynamics), but different type of print out -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/Cyclone04/DSC00150.jpg

I cant see how it could make much of a difference... the principle is the same, regardless of how many cylinders the engine has.

If they do run them all in 4f like cowboy says then the result from the RR day there a couple of weeks ago show that it's accurate....

I'm sure they'd talk you through what the setting means and what difference it could possibly make if you ask them. Maybe there isn't a 5, just 4, 6 and 8?

After doing some searching for "dyno dynamics" it appears they dont have a 5 cylinder mode, been mentioned on here before.

does 314 at the flywheel sound about right when it's 266 at the wheels? sounds about right to me.

Hi Matt,

That's a fair comment and may be correct.

Jules

It should be run in 6 cylinder mode. Apparently neither is any more accurate, but it is the industry standard to do 5s in 6 mode for comparative purposeses.

More importantly, as I recall (I can't view from work) your dyno graph redlines at 5,900rpm. It appears that they haven't set the dyno up correctly (if this is the case) and you BHP figures will be out. You'd be better of posting up the torque curve and getting one of us to put the BHP up properly.

I think it will actually give a higher figure...

Sorry, I blame the work filter

You looking at my graph there?

My graphs go to well over 6500rpm, if you take another look, and the torque curve is displayed

test was done in 3rd gear???
Should be 4th in 5gear boxes and 5th in 6gear boxes, no?

Good results, spot on fueling, so who really cares if its 310 or 320!

V.

3rd gear was used, yes - most of the different coupe RR sessions that I've seen have been done in 3rd gear.

v.odd!

as far as I know they try to test with as close to 1:1 ratio and that's definitely not 3rd gear! I'm sure someone is going to correct me if not, but most Italian and Greek RR graphs I've seen and all the RR sessions I've been to were in 4th or 5th for the 6gear guys.

V.

It depends on what the max speed is that the rolling road can accurately calibrate too. For the Dyno Dynamics Dynomometers it is 150mph. Therefore the Coupe could be ran in 4th.

I tried running my old Cerbera in 4th on the Dyno Dynamics but from around 6000rpm the curve started to distort and gave a much higher figure than when we ran in 3rd, the car was running at over 150mph. On another brand of Dyno this my not be a problem.

Done better that mine there mate your fueling is alot better than mine looking at your graphs.

Congratulations m8!! Will have to look at sorting out my fuel and clutch still on a standard one at the moment

Cheers, clay, I've replied in your thread

OK, what's going on?

More than one person has told me that my results are just plain wrong, inaccurate, try it on another rolling road, etc etc.

Nobody will tell me WHY they are wrong...

(apart from jules saying they shouldnt have run it in 4F - but 4F was fine on everybody elses car)

What else could bring anyone to that conclusion?

Matt - give Steve a call at Dyno Demon. Explain what people on here are saying and ask him for his comments. I'm sure this can be brought to a successful conclusion.

I need a bit more than "I've been told theyre wrong"

I need "I've been told theyre wrong BECAUSE......."

The things that I can see are wrong are that it’s been run in 3rd gear when 4th would be more ‘normal’ and that the torque seems remarkably high for the level of boost you are running.

Thanks mattb

I can explain the torque.

look at any other coupe running a GT28R.

Can they hold 1.4 bar to 5000rpm?

No, it drops off to 1.2 bar at 5000rpm. limitations of the turbo.

My maximum torque is 300lb/ft at 5000rpm at 1.2 bar. SAME AS ALL THE OTHERS

If I was running 1.4 bar I would get the same or similar peak torque at 5000rpm becauser it would have dropped to 1.2 by then, but it would beef up the midrange more below 5000rpm.


Next time, I will ask them to run it in 4th gear.

What? You can almost hold that at the redline!??!?!?!?

The other disadvantage about running in 3rd gear is your boost will come in later by a few 100rpms. You will also get slightly higher wheel power although this will have no bearing on the flywheel calculation as long as the dyno was setup for 3rd gear and ran in 3rd gear.

Anyway, nice results

Nope, not even close!

When I went in Ross' car just after he had upgraded from the GT28R to the RSR he was saying it was definitely holding more boost than the R, it was holding 1.2 bar past 6k rpm

Oh and upload your graph

No, to your TS page

Oh and list your mods while you are at it

Why cant you get more than 1.2 bar at 5k rpm? I can hold more than that on my GTi-R.

oh right!

OK

I think I could hold a little bit more, perhaps, if it was set up properly to hold it.

GT28R isnt bigger than GTiR is it?

yep

Here's my boost graph from last weekend, so I'd say you should be able to run a fair bit more boost, or at least hold it for longer (if you have sufficient fueling);

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f312/bryce_matthew/HiboostBoost.jpg

So your boost goes over 1.5bar then tails off to 1.3??
Am i right in thinking 1 bar is 14psi???
Lot of boost isn't it??

Nick

It is a lot, but the point I'm trying to make is that MattW's turbo is capable of making more boost than he is currently running.

I think youre right actually, if I ran more in the midrange then it would be able to sustain it for longer. it only drops by a few PSI, just like yours and everyone elses.

It made 322bhp at 1.3 bar so that's what must have happened there.

The most important thing for me... what I want to know is:

300lb/ft at just over 1.2 bar at 5000rpm - is that "too much torque to be correct" ??

It's more than I would have thought - mine make just under that but peaks at 5,500 but on a flowed engine.

clay99 got exactly the same if you look at his graphs, is his wrong too?

his whole torque curve is a bit earlier in the rev range which is why he got less power.

Is it okay to use 320 lb/ft (434 Nm) with a standard clutch? I thought it could only hold approximately 295 lb/ft (400 Nm) and if you went over 295 lb/ft it would start to slip.

nope 300lbs/ft is too much for a standard clutch IMO.

My standard clutch was slipping badly as soon as I put the GT28R on and turned the boost up. It was fine with a standard turbo at 1.2 bar.

I'm using a Helix organic now.

Okay Suba

Matt, I read your spec on page 1 and didn´t see any Helix, so that´s why I asked

Yeah, I should add that to my list of modifications, completely forgot about it

I'm with matty on this one.

Torque too high.

U can't compare against my graphs, because of the lack of headwork. Headwork changes the proposition completely.

Ross

Or maybe it's just running really well?

Anyone ever change their spark plugs, engine oil, gearbox oil, clutch, turbo, boost controller and god knows what else all days before going on the rollers?

I hear it can give some great results!

I also have less heat soak than most other coupes, due to no undertray, no aircon, location of air filter, empty space in engine bay, etc..

How come everyone is saying my torque is too high, but nobody commented on clay99's results when he got the same torque as me with the same spec as me at the same rolling road a week before?

Are the rollers that they use taking wrong torque measurements? (due to 3rd gear, 4f mode, whatever) If so, fair enough, but that's a lot of coupe's all down on power from the last RR day there a few weeks ago!

And how can my torque be too high but my power be right when they are linked by a constant formula? I've checked it with a calculator and the figures are correct.

Well, for a start he's running 1.4 bar. Although his car isn't holding boost that well either given he's got an AVCR.

not at peak torque he isnt. he's hardly running any more boost than me at peak torque, and his fuelling is worse.

If I ran 1.4 bar at 4000rpm I'd still have 300lb/ft.

Why don´t you use the undertray?

Because it didnt have one when I got it, and they cost money

PMSL.

Matt - I'll talk to Steve tomorrow and ask him to have a look at this thread with a view to making some comments.

as long as you are happy with the way it drives on the rd, thats all that matters, all the rest is just numbers.

they act differently on an rr than the rd anyway, so you never get the exact right result imo

I agree with Joel

As long as it peforms as you want on the road

and by the way, welcome to the 300bhp club

Ben

Thanks chaps

well done matt!

I agree about its how it drives thats the important thing and that it fuels ok. pub figures are nice, but they aren't the be all and end all!

The look on his face when they told him what it was running was priceless though.

Is this the same place where you held your Dyno day Craig?

Well done Matt sound`s perfect, i can`t wait to hit a reliable 300 horses.

Yes it is, I was impressed with the place.

I hope craig doesnt mind me saying this, but i told craig after the first day, that the figures were out.

Craig's initial figures, for his setup just don't add up.

Again with these ones.

There is few GT28r graphs to really check, but generally without headwork they dont break 315-320, even with mapping.

Ben20vt's coupe was mapped at PT (cat in exhaust i know) and made 314 (iirc?) so for your car with a plug/play chip to make 322bhp is a miracle anyways. Then add in the torque figure, it just doesnt sit right.

Btw, i did say to matt that i didn't want to comment, but he insisted, so here is my opinion.

Ross

Cheers Ross, if these rollers do give out inflated readings to everyone, then I cant defend that

As I've already said, I'll speake to Steve today and ask for his comments.

I'd say ref my results i'm still running a standard clutch in my coop at the mo and can feel clutch slip as boost comes on..

Ah figures figures figures. Don't worry about it Matt, you've got a nice driveable coop there that must feel rapid on the road. Who cares if your torque is too high on the RR? Enjoy your coop you lucky b*gger