I am going to let the 16VT be RR'd this monday.
I own the 16VT for 3 months now, and a large service has been done. I will let the car be RR'd at the standard 0.8 bar boost. It won't overboost due to the Blitz SBC-R which keeps the boost steady. I do need to get the gain/ratio set up right before the RR this weekend. If anyone has any tips considering the values of these two please let me know!

I will post up the graph this monday afternoon, i hope that noone of the horses have ran away!

what is the rest of your setup mate any maps or mods?

hi mate,

its all standard exept for the powerflow 2,5" + race cat and balance belt removed+bmc air filter.

i wouldnt think it would make much power maybe around 205bhp depending on the condition of the car

Thats what i am curious for. A intercooler + dink chip is on the list too, as well is the fuel pump wiring mod. I hope to hit around 240-250 by then. We will see monday what the results are.

with a dink stage 1 you will make 240bhp with a intercooler and wiring mod and a straight induction and a decat pipe and maybe have your injectors cleaned.

will be nice to see your results

Alright, the results are here:

170 bhp/244nm

I am dissapointed with the results, i was hoping for at least the stock power. Car has done 80k miles.

The guy at the RR centre checked if there was a leak, but couldn't find anything. This was on 0.8 bar with the Blitz set up on 16/40. They thought it might be the MAP Sensor, Intake temp sensor, lambda sensor. He also said that the car was running very, very rich! (how do i see this on the graph?)

I went straight to the Fiat Dealer and asked them to read the car on errors, but they couldnt find anything.


Graph:






Why did my horse's ran away?!

there doesn't seem to be an AFR plot on the graph, and by the looks you got down to 0.7 bar through the run, that is low boost which will account for a little of the bhp but certainly not all of it

this makes me want to test mine now my engine has done the same sort of millage but im running stage 2 i think a RR coming on

Than i wonder how the guy knows that it runs rich?

Hmm... i got no clue where to start looking for the power loss. Compression was 11.5/11.5/10.5/11.5 in bar, i do use a BMC filter with airbox mod and 2,5" powerflow exhaust system with race-cat.

The boost controller and boost gauge are connected to the dump valve hose, and not to the FPR hose (since i cant find the FPR hose). Might this give a false reading/fale control of boost? (for example: gauge+blitz say its on 0.8 bar but it actually is lower?)

In the first pic you can see lambda value (=purple curve)

I think the lambda is down to 0.7@6000 = 10.3 AFR

Hi freddan,

Is the reading of 10.3 correct then, or should it read otherwise?

cheers

(ps my blitz is connected to the Dump valve hose, and not to the FPR hose (because i cant find that hose). Could this give me a false reading? for example it reads 0.8 bar but actually runs on 0.6?)

I don't think 10.3 is good, better to be between 11.5-12 AFR.

The other question about boost hose. I have done the same and I have no problems with boost pressure

Okay then i will leave that for what it is right now.

DO you have any idea how i can have influence on my AFR ratio?

Update: Been to a Bosch Car Service Center.

They have tried to search for electronic errors by putting the car on a computer. No errors showed up!
Thing is that the car sounds fine, drives well. It's just that it uses a lot of fuel (6,5km on 1 litre) and under-performes!

Just a suggestion (a stupid one maybe), have you checked your ecu yet. Youre stock chip could have already be replaced by an aftermarket one. Which could explain why you are overfueling, if this is the case you could up the boost a bit.

just a suggestion

Hi Mate,

Well actually i was going to do that very soon.
Any tips on how to identify my chip? Whether its a original FIAT chip or aftermarket?

You could post up a pic of the chip, I'm sure someone on here can help you out. I think the standard chip should have a magneti marelli sticker on it, just like the 20vt one has a bosch sticker on it.

Standard chip will have the fiat number on a sticker

194.04 or 194.05 but put up a pic

In regards to AFR I misread the graph, I thought the .7 (wgich equals 10.3afr) was a boost line, sorry bit confusing on the graph

Made a pic but wont be able to upload until tomorow.
Altho i think that all is standard: It still had magneti marreli stickers on the screws. I opened it tho, and it had a 194.xx number if i remember correctly.

So, it's not a other chip. Can the 2,5" + race cat exhaust be negative? Need to change spark plugs too since i dont know how old they are. (If they are as old as the air filter was, at least 20.000 km/s)

No, the exhaust can't be bad unless the cat is blocked up with rubbish or there is a loose baffle etc which is unlikely.

I would suspect the amount of boost you are running.

I know you did a compression test and it came up good,

What type of dyno was it if you know, do you know anyone else that has used it was it accurate in that case?

I would be tempted to put the dink chip in and give it another go at higher boost (say 1.1bar) and perhaps on a different dyno, TBH at a low boost level I am not sure what to expect power wise,

IS there a boost graph from this run?

Exhaust shouldnt be blocked or full with rubbish. I bought it from Joe in good condition and checked it before installation.

I will put in the dink after my holiday + new spark plugs and let it be tested again at a higher boost value. See what it does then.

There is no boost graph from this run, this one paper is all i got.

thanks all for the feedback and tips! Ill keep you posted!

Check for boost leaks. Next time up the boost a little bit more, that car is begging you for more air

i am pretty sure that you lose a lot of bhp with 10.3 AFR at 0.8 bar boost, at that low boost i would prefer to see close to 12.

and do you have any idea why it rus 10.3 ? when it is on standard chip..

original injectors and so ??

Is it worth checking the lamdba sensor?

Hi Martijn,
Can you explain me why are you using an electronic boost controller while your Coupé is stock?

I think you are rich because you don't have enough boost pressure. I am not an expert in 16VT but I think that if you let the ECU manage the EBV, you will have higher boost and it will be fine.

You don't need to check your lambda sensor as it is not used during full load.

I have sent Dink a message, the writer of the chip.

He said that the car with this AFR figures is running too low on 0.8 bar boost. My car doesnt overboost because i use the blitz, so it misses that 0,2 bar on the dynorun.

what i can do is turn up boost to 0.95/1.00

Sorry mate, didnt notice you replied. I am using a EBC because i am planning to tune it in the future. Also my original boost controller does not controll the boost, it keeps rising until the engine cuts off at 1.6-ish bar. Now with having it set on 1.0 bar the car runs fine, and has a lot more bhp!

It's OK
We found the problem at the same time.

It is very surprising
By my "original boost controller" I understand your ECU, is that right?
Maybe you have a crap chip on it?

The problem with the car orignally was the wastegate not opening at all, or staying open all the time, it wasn't a chip problem but a hardware problem.

Ok thanks
Anyway it is a strange problem

Martijn: Nothing to worry about. The AFR of 10:1 is perfectly normal for a standard 16VT. If you ever get to look at the maps you'll see that The 16VT runs very rich and very retarded ignition as standard.

I have a much bigger turbo than standard running 1 bar of boost and I actually removed fuel and added igntion timing!

Just out of interest, what was your bhp at the wheels?

Hi mate,

thanks for the post and message! Im on holiday in the us right now, but i believe that my bhp at wheels was around 140.
Ill install dink chip+ fmic when im back + running a little more boost by then. I will post the next graph on here then!

what power does yours make?

I haven't had it dyno'd yet but it should be about 250bhp.

Alright, the modification list so far:


* Blitz SBC-R dual solenoid boost controller (four settings: 0.8/1.0/1.15/1.35 bar)
* Dink performance chip (www.lanciahf.eu)
* Cold sparkplugs
* Large front mount intercooler
* 2,5" full stainless steel exhaust system, race cat.
* Original airbox, modified with BMC race panel filter.
* Modified wiring to the fuel pump for better voltage
* Forge GT dumpvalve
* Balance shafts locked/belt removed.

I will be going to the dyno in 30 mins, will make it run on 1.15 and 1.35 bar boost with standard turbo. I tend to run 1.15 on the road, and just do a 1.35 run to see what it has over 1.15.

So..more info to come later today when i am back!

Alright, these are the, still dissapointing, results!

At 1.15 bar: 206 bhp
At 1.35 bar: 209 bhp

torque:

At 1.15 bar: 303 nm
At 1.35 bar: 321 nm

Graphs:




Comments from the RR guy

*fuelling is fine, a little rich
*Turbo takes very long to spool up!!!

Im not really satisfied on this. Must say i was hoping for at least 230 bhp. Must also say that there was a guy with a sierra cosworth hitting 275 bhp here, and hitting 302 at a different dyno yesterday..

well, from what I can tell this is the same dyno you used to start this thread so based on that I the same dyno you have gone from 170bhp 244nm to 206bhp/300nm

that is 36bhp up and 60nm since the last run

Please right a list of what has changed between this 2 runs.

I agree wheel power still seems low but dyno's do vary quite a bit, do you have a feel for how this one reads? based on the cosworth guy that is 10% lower which would take you to 230bhp which is still a bit low but within the rnage of 230-250bhp on stage 1 mods.

Dyno's are all about comparsion and you are heading in the right direction, picking up 35bhp is good

As for spool, it seems to be around 3800rpm which is a bit slow for a standard turbo, below is my boost graph and boost hits by 3600rpm

Again could be the cat making extra back pressure as I don't run one.



It would seem that the turbo is being a bit lazy, time for an upgrade

My last run was on 0.8 bar.

Addons since last run:

Dink chip
cold spark plugs
higher boost (1.15 and 1.35)
FMIC

what i am thinking of:
With my blitz i can set up the max boost, but i think also how fast the boost comes in. This might be adjustable to a faster rating, so the boost kicks in faster - earlier RPM's.
But: would this really make such a difference in top end power?

Whats the boost rate set to at the moment (GAIN)

That can make a massive difference, I run about 18-20 from memory but that is Greddy not blitz so not sure they rate the same way?

So really between the runs it is just the chip and boost, I think 35bhp is pretty good, The plugs and FMIC are really more safety things for cooler inlet temps and combustion temps

The GAIN was set to 18.

As i can read for blitz, this is what the manual say's:

Start with a setting of 5 and increase this step by step during testing. A value between 20 and 30 for single turbos and 5 - 15 for twin turbo's or sequential systems is very common.

So, 18 might be a bit low. I will test it tomorow starting with 20, and increasing from there until the boost rise's too fast for my liking/overboosting too much.

Power wise, best might be to overboost to 1.35 for a second or 2 for the torque, then falling back into 1.15. (scramble boost). I don't know how this works yet (how to set it up right) so i will firt find a decent GAIN setting.

Yeah, I should have added my gain is quite low as I have a big compressor and to stop the boost creeping I had to low it a bit.

the OE 16vt turbo is small by comparsion so creep in the higher revs won't be a problem, try upping it

the Intake likely isn't helping either (standard airbox) get a SIP on there now you have the FMIC.

The only other thing I can think os a slightly open watergate, I mention it as I rememeber you had alot of wastegate issues when you first brought the car (ie slightly open all the time)

Martijn why didn't you fine tune the EBC at the RR? It must be the best and easiest way to tune an EBC. If you do it on the street you have other cars etc to think of.

And why don't you have a boost curve on the print out?

Hi Freddan,

they didnt gave me a boost curve, i dont think that it was measured. Also i didnt think of the spool up time @ the dynojet center. These guys also are not enthousiast or willing to support you in any way, if you dont ask, they dont talk. I will go to a different center next time for sure.

Ill look at the spool up GAIN later tonight, see what it does to the car. Yet i dont think that it will add 30-40 bhp, will it?

no - the gain setting won't give you much more power - it simply affects the rate at which the turbo is allowed to spool up - a high gain setting will allow it to spool up quickly

On my big turbo, I have gain settings of between 8 and 15 - any more than that and it spools up too quickly and breaks traction, as well as feeling very "sudden" - I prefer a more progressive build-up of power.

Perhaps this is why my clutch and tyres last longer than other owners with less power

Okay Nigel, that makes sence. But right now, the turbo comes in real late, it starts building up boost around 2800, but obtains full boost around 3.700-4.000

i think this could be restrictive too:




It originally was a twin exit pipe, now turned into one exit. Probably not 30-40bhp as well, but it can't hurt to open that hole again.

Have you searched for boost or exhaust leaks?

What should i feel when i have a boost leak? One of my intercoolerpipes leaked, which made the boost not build up higher than 0.4 bar. this was fixed before the dyno run.


I do think that the manifold-cylinder head gasket leaks a very very little, i feel some air blowing out right there, but maybe not enough to blow out a candle.

not enough to blow out a candle at idle, it will way, way worse under boost pressure - exhasut gas pressure at 1 bar boost could be 2 bar in the exhasut manifold (that is a guess but it is higher than the intake side) and at that pressure the leak should be alot worse.

Talk to trevor on here (nyssa) and get a spesso one

I will look into the leaking later today.
I have sent you this through PM Saint, but i post it on here as well to see if maybe somebody else can come up with something:


*I played with the GAIN setting up to 35, no difference in spool-up time
*Sometimes the boost wont go higher than between 0,3-0,6 bar, or reach 1 bar +- after 5.000 rpm.
*The boost behaviour differs, and the longer i drive (i did around 80 km/s of testing) the worse it became. Sometimes it does spool up (but still late like on the dyno) sometimes it doesn't spool up to the desired boost lvl but much lower.
Sometimes it keeps at 0,5 bar, sometimes when going to 1bar+ in 3rd gear, and i shift to fourth it is stuck at 0,5 bar for a second or 2, then slowly builds up towards 1 bar.

It does smell different too, like a burned smell of oil. I didnt actually see smoke, tho.

I think your turbo or the the wastegate is f.u.c.k.e.d. . Have you checked it?

What boost pressure do you see when the EBC is switched off?

I think that Saint has a point that the leak @ manifold gasket can be larger when on boost. I want this repaired anyway, so a new gasket for the manifold will be ordered soon.

Freddan, what checks/tests can i do to see if the turbo-wastegate is f* ? for the wastegate, move the arm and see if the wastegate flap can move freely?

Thanks everyone for thinking with me!

The photo you sent is a leak on the downstream side of the turbo (turbo to downpipe) so that won't effect performance too much - I thought the leak you mentioned was between the head and the turbo.

I saying that a exhaust leak in he engine bay isn't the best, for 1 the fumes could come into the cabin, or the leak could heat up something it shouldn't and melt it etc - EGT can get up to 900c

The leak i mentioned is between the cylinder head and exhaust manifold, so manifold gasket.

Exhaust leak should be fixed anyway, i gave a call to the RR company this morning, and discribing my *symptons* they said it is probably the turbo on its way out. If there is a way to test this before spending a fortune, could somebody post that up please?

Yes move the actuator arm and see if the flap is moving. One other way to check wastegate is to remove hose from actuator. But be very careful, go easy on the gas pedal. If your wg is good the boost pressure will rise really fast. So be careful
If the boost pressure doesn't rise fast you have a wastegate problem.

Check for axial play: get hold of the compressor wheel and move it in/out. You should have very little play.

Good luck!

Ok: I have done the following:

*Drive w/o Blitz on, to see if the problem is within the Blitz: no result
*disconnect the hose from the blitz, which should make the boost rise very quickly to 1.5 bar: no result
*check if the actuator arm is still connected the to wastegate flap: it is.

Then i tried to move the arm(while standing in front of the engine bay), but it is stuck and i cant move it. I didnt jack the car up, i will do that tomorow night and get under it to try to move the flap itself.

What im thinking is that the wastegate might be like half open, so it can't build up proper boost. Yesterday it sometimes hesitated to give good boost, right now i cant even reach 1 bar. It just very slowly crawls up to 0.6-0.7 bar.

Hi Martijn.

Well a gain of 30 bhp is a great result - shame it currently only takes it to standard power!

The actuator should be very difficult to move by hand. The spring in the wastegate is very strong.

You say you disconnected the actuator from the blitz and just had the pipe open to atmoshpere, and yet it only reached 0.7 bar? That's definitly not right then.

Unfortunately the turbo is in such a position that it's not possible to check the wastegate flapper without taking the turbo out.

Hi Kj16v,

I had a wastegate issue before: the arm was not connected to the flapper. When it was like this, i could easily twist the flap from open to closed. Perhaps when i disconnect my actuator arm, i can check if its stuck or not?

Indeed with removing the hose from the actuator from the blitz it still would not change the behaviour: still no fast boost rising and a max boost around 0.7 bar.

I moved the arm of the actuator a bit, it indeed is very hard to move due to the spring.

Later when i was standing at a traffic light, some smoke was coming from my exhaust. Not a very thick smoke, and not a real lot but it was there. Im afraid the turbo is just on its way out, i will see if there is a specialist who can confirm this before removing it.

And... the story continues:

*I bought 2 new clamps today for the intercooler-hose connection, because i thought it might be leaking. After putting the new clamps on, i have removed the hose from the wastegate actuator and took the car for a spin:

It built up boost to 1.5 bar!

So, i put the hose back on, and everything worked fine, for 3 minutes.

After three minutes, the pressure fell back again and it was slowly building up boost to 0.7/0.8 bar again...

Anyone who can put me in the right direction here?

Hi Martijn,

Sorry for not having replied to your last email.

I'm also thinking about a turbo problem. Maybe the turbo is on it's way out (would explain the slow charging) or the mbc is not setup properly (it looks like you tried hard to make it work so it is probably ok)

Are you telling me you only get 0,7bar with the wastegate actuator disconnected? That would probably mean your wastegate stays open.

Hi Xav,

No problem, as long as i am not paying you for your advice

I get 1,5 bar with the wastegate actuator disconnected, and boost rises fast. (so i suppose that is correct).

If i were to have a external wastegate, i could check if it was working properly with idling the car and checking if the wastegate-exhaust gets hot. But, since this is a internal wastegate, this wont work.

I have made a new post in the technical problems section:

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=943590&#Post943590

Blitz must be set up right, and i checked all possible hoses for leaks but noone!

I will be planning one for the new year if your interested

Okay, i have removed the Actuator, and will be replacing it with a different one soon.
Man... thats a real pig to fit when everything is on the car!

Ill keep everyone posted if this is the solution, altho i also have bought a T34 cosworth turbo, but that will go on in the new year.

Ok, new actuator on: Boost comes in around 2800 RPM! Thats like 1500 RPM earlier!

So problem fixed, car feels more powerfull now too (probably because it was leaking boost all the time).

Finally, after 8 months, i know how a coupe 16VT is supposed to drive.. love it

Thanks all for your thoughts!

Great news

Any christmas gifts for the car??

A T34 60 trim cosworth turbo... But driving it around today for 150 km's made me actually love the original set-up! Spools up so fast!

So.. I might let this rest and just give it a big service + clutch + le bodykit and keep the turbo in the closet until i am ready for more power!

That shoulden't take too long

Meh... probably not! But i decided that i first go with a new clutch and a good checkup for 2010.
Also id really like the side skirts to be done, and the front lips or a PIU bumper.

I would say possibly wastegate sticking open, as mine used to do the exact opposite, I thought I had some sort of aftermarket turbo, but apparently haven't, the actuator wasn't working, so it was shut all the time. Gave superb spool up... Now it has a working actuator, it spools slower but feels a better car to drive. I would say for slow spool, it's open to whatever degree all the time. You did say if you disconnect it spool is good, might be worth trying another actuator to test. Or have I missed a post on here somewhere...? Ah yes, I have you've replaced the actuator and it's fine. <ahem> sorry!

Haha no problem feeblebob!

the car is waiting on a new clutch now, after that i will go to the RR again.