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#1607656 - 10/09/2017 23:29 8000+ rpm on 20vt
PhoB Offline
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 28/04/2008
Posts: 66
Hi, searching for real life experience what is needed to mod of stock engine to like high rpm.

We have two race 2ltr engine builds with bigvalve head and overkilled by 280-290deg cams on solid lifters. Lightweight pulleys, chromemoly flywheel.
Stock oil pump, water pump and valve springs(but fresh new).

First engine tuned,and peak power on modest constant boost 1.6bar (GTX3071 gen2) is just after 8500rpm.

I dont know if it safe to let engine runs in race mode over 8000rpm. First test after dynotuning showing bit of water temp issues (car have bigger alloy radiator + evans coolant).

thanks

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#1607660 - 11/09/2017 08:43 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
Countrycruising Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
I AM a Coop

Registered: 12/09/2006
Posts: 14460
Loc: FCSS 01684 593187
The best person I can suggest to ask this question to is Leighton from FC Performance, he's mapped 20vt's up at this rev range.

User name Flea on here or:

www.fcperformance.co.uk
_________________________

www.facebook.com/fiatcoupes

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#1607669 - 11/09/2017 12:33 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16870
Loc: Staffordshire
I believe JohnS ran his 2.4 converted Coupe at up to 8,000 rpm, but he found that anything above this caused valve-float (even on new springs)

I would have thought that uprated springs and possibly solid lifters might be needed for a race engine where it's going to spend a lot of its time at high revs
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#1607682 - 11/09/2017 15:55 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
nyssa7 Offline
My job on the forum

Registered: 20/12/2005
Posts: 1266
I did run mine to 8000rpm, but doubt it did much to help with engine life. Replacement engine was built with solid lifters, engine builder assured me that hydraulic tappets would not be reliable if using 8000rpm regularly - might be OK on road, but not for a race engine
_________________________
www.nyssaracing.com

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#1607694 - 11/09/2017 20:33 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
PhoB Offline
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 28/04/2008
Posts: 66
Thanks,

just tried to send email to Flea, but i think he has better thing to do than waste time on answer.

Is there any uprated springs available for 20vt or it must be customized by searching from performance manufacturers catalogs?
We are on solid lifters(already have problems with failed hydraulic lifters = cracked retainers).

Audi 5cyl have problems with oil pump gear, which regulary blowns at 8000+ rpm.

Water pump, we are on decision go for electric, for now still with oem in place(due timing bell gear).

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#1607717 - 12/09/2017 08:33 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
Trappy Offline
Forum is my life

Registered: 27/02/2006
Posts: 5118
Loc: Essex
Originally Posted By PhoB
First engine tuned,and peak power on modest constant boost 1.6bar (GTX3071 gen2) is just after 8500rpm.



That sounds like very high rpms for peak power on that turbo... What is peak power?
_________________________
FC Performance 420bhp, 328lbs/ft

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#1607727 - 12/09/2017 11:34 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: Trappy]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16870
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By Trappy
That sounds like very high rpms for peak power on that turbo... What is peak power?


I agree - I have the same turbo and my power is dropping off after 7,000rpm. I'm guessing that he's running the larger 0.86AR turbine housing, which will shift the power band upwards by 500+ rpm

I'd hope the power figure is going to be in the region of 500bhp, otherwise there's not much point chasing the higher revs
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#1607817 - 13/09/2017 22:22 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
PhoB Offline
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 28/04/2008
Posts: 66
Power is 500bhp+ at 8300rpm(dyno read,ecu saw 8500 - limiter), at 6500rpm it has only 400bhp and at 3000rpm only 75bhp. V-band .61 housing + 45mm wg. Its overkilled by cams as i noted.

Engine builder says oil pump is ok as its gear driven by design. So he see first problems on valve train now.

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#1607821 - 14/09/2017 00:16 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
MarioCirillo Offline
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

Registered: 17/07/2008
Posts: 12503
Loc: Watford
Been a while since we have had a thread like this. Please keep us posted with progress. It's an interesting read thumb
_________________________
Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041

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#1607823 - 14/09/2017 06:14 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
Honza Offline
On a journey

Registered: 10/02/2006
Posts: 125
Loc: Czech republic
springs for 20Vt doesn´t exist - directly intended (if Catcams doesn´t make one) but as the 5cyl engine is same- base design as twinspark there is a chance to use twin spark springs which are available from AHM, Catcams etc..

http://www.ahmotorsports.co.uk/product/twin-spark-cup-race-springs/

this recommended by catcams for TS witch hig-lift/race cams:
http://catcams.co.uk/acatalog/1031575.pdf
http://catcams.co.uk/acatalog/PAC-E92009.pdf
http://catcams.co.uk/acatalog/PAC-I92009.pdf
_________________________
05 15.84s
06 14,79s
07 14,9s
09 14.4s
11 lot of things to do
.
.
17 back on the road smile and much stronger

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#1607825 - 14/09/2017 06:26 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16870
Loc: Staffordshire
Originally Posted By PhoB
Power is 500bhp+ at 8300rpm(dyno read,ecu saw 8500 - limiter), at 6500rpm it has only 400bhp and at 3000rpm only 75bhp. V-band .61 housing + 45mm wg. Its overkilled by cams as i noted.


There is something unusual about your engine - mine briefly made 500bhp, but was backed off for safety. My redline is set at 7,300rpm

I think it would be cheaper for you to sort the cams than to try to get the engine to survive 8,000+ rpm

Try Colombo & Bariani for cams
_________________________


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#1607826 - 14/09/2017 08:20 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
Honza Offline
On a journey

Registered: 10/02/2006
Posts: 125
Loc: Czech republic
regarding to cooling issues - if they occurs at high rpm - there is probably problem with cavitation on water pump blades which stops water from flowing..

the radial impelers in pumps has best eficiency around 4000 rpm, above that speed, severe cavitation occurs and little bit higher the flow is interupted so at least lowering pump speed by increasing pulley diameter is the way (on this engine hardly to made..)

.. electric pump and deleting impeler in std. pump is probably the way...
_________________________
05 15.84s
06 14,79s
07 14,9s
09 14.4s
11 lot of things to do
.
.
17 back on the road smile and much stronger

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#1607903 - 15/09/2017 23:14 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
PhoB Offline
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 28/04/2008
Posts: 66
Here is a dyno chart. Absolute values are say estimation, due several dyno limitations(3rd gear pull,inertia loaded). But for curve shape is enought.

click to enlarge


Now i have there a different coupe with the second engine(almost same build) where owner is more hero rated, equipped by GTX3582r gen2 and same cams timmed little more to higher rpm,unfortuantely(due more limited valve/piston clearance).

Honza: thanks for springs, will check it.

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#1608238 - 21/09/2017 17:40 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
suba Offline
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 03/01/2006
Posts: 9844
Loc: SW London
What about Rods / Rod bolts- thought the rod bolts started to give around the 8,000 rpm mark also?
_________________________
Rotary fun - 370 bhp per ton. GT30's are small you know?!??!?!?!

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#1608418 - 24/09/2017 23:38 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2233
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
Bigends ran his at 8200RPM and didn't have any valve float from what flea said when i asked him.

As for uprated valve springs etc there are some on the market and they are available through a certain supplier and cost is around the £550 mark.

As for CAM's i wouldn't bother going C&B unless

(https://www.gazzellaracing.com/product.php?productid=17909&cat=2779&page=1)

you want to pay over the moon (£1300) and wait a lot longer than the 40 days they say it will take (thats what happened to me) The same supplier have there own cams made from blanks (no cheap re ground bodge) and come matched the same as C&B specs plus 2 other specs for different use. Prices start at £800

Hope this helps little
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1608975 - 04/10/2017 21:21 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: Nigel]
JohnS Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 20/12/2005
Posts: 3154
Loc: Near Reading
Originally Posted By Nigel
I believe JohnS ran his 2.4 converted Coupe at up to 8,000 rpm, but he found that anything above this caused valve-float (even on new springs)

I would have thought that uprated springs and possibly solid lifters might be needed for a race engine where it's going to spend a lot of its time at high revs


Hi all! Yes on mine (long time ago in a far away galaxy) I think there was some detection of bounce at over 8000rpm therefore the rev limiter was pared back to 8000rpm. There is a possible risk of hydraulic lock out of the lifter, at the time it was a failing on some of the VAG turbo engines with similar lifters. I remember someone posted a modification to the lifter to stop this happening years ago.
Using higher revs it's even more important that the engine is dynamically balanced and all the pistons and rods are exactly the same weight etc.

If your power is still rising at 8000rpm then something is wrong-sized in the inlet or exhaust in principle. Whatever the cams you have there is some adjustment on the cams as standard, so you can actually change the characteristics of the engine a little bit just by the adjustment available.

I tried a GT3582R twin-scroll setup on mine but it didn't suit the engine at all, so I ended up with a custom GT3082R with 0.7AR T04 cold side and 0.86 hot side.
_________________________
Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP

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#1609009 - 05/10/2017 10:16 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
PhoB Offline
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 28/04/2008
Posts: 66
Thanks for a reactions. JohnS run hydrolifters , so ok we have that solved.
Blancing is a sort of issue due 5cyl, it can be done by some counterweight, but there is a place for a mistake, so we do not touch crank, and balanced are only other rotating parts mounted on it. Pistons and rods are paired to make weight, but not laboratory perfect i think.

Here is a dynochart with second engine GTX3582r g2 equipped.Its different dyno than first one, but still only dynamic loaded, measured on 4gear. Vanos-VVT is activated all the way the 8000rpm, because still benefit. There is no more space piston/valve on intake side to make adjustment more to "low end" (i can note exact numbers if anybody want).
Boost was 2bar, but have creep issues over 7500rpm and run out ouf fuel flow due car is on E85.

Intake manifold is OEM only slighly ported to match bigvalve head.

Actual plan is to fix fuel and creep, run again ut to 8500rpm and try advance more exhaust cam, but not expecting much torque gain from that.

click to enlarge

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#1609144 - 07/10/2017 20:04 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2233
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
what intercooler set up are you running i find the Pro alloy one most of us use is very restrictive and the Evo design one not much better.
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1609154 - 08/10/2017 00:19 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
PhoB Offline
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 28/04/2008
Posts: 66
Its some kind of US ebay biggest china FMIC with 3" outlets dimensions. Just core is not classic bar/plate design, but tube/fin...and china just forgot made the fins smile so inside it looks like "tube 3" on this picture:

http://www.carparts.com.hk/Image/Intercooler/tunes.jpg

Car have maxigauges display with dataloging and temp sensors before and after IC, just it was no opportuninty to log+check it. All i know on 1/4mile drag, with 20degC ambient, MAT temp was 70degC at finish.
Have a plan to borrow same size pure china bar/plate FMIC, test on a dyno. But it doesnt have a priority,now.

How did you measure a IC restriction? Two boost gauges/map sensors?

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#1609183 - 08/10/2017 17:52 Re: 8000+ rpm on 20vt [Re: PhoB]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2233
Loc: Windsor/ Reading


Edited by knight7660 (08/10/2017 17:54)
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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