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Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
#1038097
17/05/2010 21:06
17/05/2010 21:06
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
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Hi guys. A few of you have been very helpfull already with advice on my intension of fitting the Coupe running gear into an Alfa 145, so now I am starting a proper thread to gain even more knowledge from you! I intend on buying a complete Coupe so I have everything to hand. I have read that most parts are straightforward to swap over with the Coupe and Alfa pretty similar under the bonnet, dimensionally and in the layout. Should be an easy swap as transplants go! My choice is now to either go for the 16V turbo or the 20V turbo. I have read the 16VT is easier to tune with the integrale gear and will maybe be easier to fit? But I just love the exhaust note of the 20VT and doing things different appeals greatly to me, if I'm to go to the trouble of swapping over then I may as well do it as good as I can! The things I know I will need are, Engine/Gearbox Drive-shafts/hubs/suspension/brakes etc Wiring loom/ECU/keys/steering column Exhaust front pipe & cat Water radiator/oil rad & all pipework for both Sub-frame Anything else I've overlooked? I have been looking for a Coupe that is either damaged or an MoT fail so it will a/ keep the costs down & b/ not waste a perfectly useable car. Will also consider one with a broken cam-belt if the price reflected a non-runner as cahnging the cam-belt & taking the head off for a check over would be on my to-do list anyway. All comments welcome guys 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: skinflint]
#1038110
17/05/2010 21:27
17/05/2010 21:27
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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yep, had a look over those 2 cars  i was kind of thinking about how easy it might be before i started to search, i imagined having to fabricate engine mounts and the like, but i was really surprised to learn that things can be swapped over pretty easily  knowing it has been done before with the 16VT gives me encouragement, but i really want to go the 20VT route  seen the bravo & marea have had the conversion done, and they are pretty much the same under the bonnet as the 145 so should be ok??
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1038121
17/05/2010 21:48
17/05/2010 21:48
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MattM
Unregistered
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MattM
Unregistered
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Very interested to see your progree Kev and me and a pal were considering this conversion for a while.
Things that put us off were;
1) Loads of wiring, the engine loom and ECU will be easy to swap other but i *think* you will have to re-wire pretty mch everything else in the car (i.e dash, windows, radio etc etc) Unless your using it as a track motor?
2) Apparently there are some issues with the brakes. You will need a different master cylinder in order to fit the engine in i *think*.
try dropping Johnnybravoturbo a PM, he knows all about this and advised me
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1038160
17/05/2010 22:53
17/05/2010 22:53
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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Very interested to see your progree Kev and me and a pal were considering this conversion for a while.
Things that put us off were;
1) Loads of wiring, the engine loom and ECU will be easy to swap other but i *think* you will have to re-wire pretty mch everything else in the car (i.e dash, windows, radio etc etc) Unless your using it as a track motor?
2) Apparently there are some issues with the brakes. You will need a different master cylinder in order to fit the engine in i *think*.
try dropping Johnnybravoturbo a PM, he knows all about this and advised me would be maybe used on the track, but would be set for the road mainly so everything would need to work. splicing the looms together was one of my concerns, but the guys that have put the 16VT in a 145 before managed it so at least it can be done details like the brake master cylinder/servo being in the way is something i haven't considered, is that just on the 20VT? or is the 16VT in need of similar mods? all questions & answers to sort through before i jump in, thanks for bringing it up  will pm johnny also, thanks for that 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1038871
18/05/2010 22:15
18/05/2010 22:15
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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any views on which engine is best, 16VT or 20VT  a couple of 16VT's on ebay at the mo that seem to suit my needs, but would rather have the 20VT but, if the 16VT gains you extra in other areas like less weight (are they much lighter  ) and more easily tuneable then it may be worth considering, but i do like the 5pot burble 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1038878
18/05/2010 22:23
18/05/2010 22:23
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MattM
Unregistered
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MattM
Unregistered
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I wouldn't say the 16vt is more tuneable, both routes are pretty tuneable and i'd say it will cost you a lot less money to get 300bhp out of a 20vt then it will a 16vt.
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1038888
18/05/2010 22:39
18/05/2010 22:39
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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I wouldn't say the 16vt is more tuneable, both routes are pretty tuneable and i'd say it will cost you a lot less money to get 300bhp out of a 20vt then it will a 16vt.
just i read/heard somewhere that the integrale stuff is compatible with the 16VT? to be honest i don't think i would be satisfied with the 16VT, i had set my mind on doing the 5pot motor just to be that bit different and if i fitted the 4pot i would be alwasy thinking "what if"  20VT it is then  300 bhp is more than i want at this moment though, stock will suffice to start with 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1058827
24/06/2010 20:26
24/06/2010 20:26
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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ok guys, i have a 145 now which has been prepped ready which for an alfa means welding up the floor to sill area  the engine & 'box etc will be out this weekend so i'm ready for a coupe now  if anyone knows of a suitable one near the lincs area then i would be glad to know  an mot failed one would suit, or a damaged one.  could post some pics on the build thread but as it's only alfa stuff so far i will hold back, unless anyone wants to see them. looking forward now to getting a coupe to start the real work 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: Varypodaros]
#1059521
25/06/2010 22:09
25/06/2010 22:09
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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yep, seen that one, looks like it will be a cracker  itching to get on with the proper work now 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1061657
29/06/2010 21:06
29/06/2010 21:06
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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will buying a car without the red master key be an issue? heard all sorts of stories about how it can cause all sorts of problems, mainly not being able to start the engine  will just having a plain key cause me any issues? heard that spare keys can be cloned, but thought that could only be done using the master key 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: Varypodaros]
#1063540
03/07/2010 12:22
03/07/2010 12:22
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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i will do whatever is the easiest/best wya to do it. if that means using the code system from my donor coupe then so be it. i just want it to work when i get it done  the only issue i have is if buying a car that has say just the silver key, will that cause any issues with the transplant?? i will be suing the whole engine loom with the steering lock/switch/key plus the ecu so the keys etc will still think they are in a coupe rather than now in a 145. i was just wondering about any issues with not having the red key incase the ecu needs resetting once everything is swapped over. bearing in mind it will be a fair while with things unplugged  thanks in advance for any advice guys, i really do appreciate it 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068251
11/07/2010 21:27
11/07/2010 21:27
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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i now have a 20VT so will be getting on soon with things. trouble is, now i've got a complete car i quite like it, i don't want to break it apart  still, will have a few parts for you guys  will start a thread on the breaking/for sale section soon
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068368
12/07/2010 08:15
12/07/2010 08:15
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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haha thats what happened to me when i got the 20vt for a tipo 20vt project!!!
going to be a really interesting build mate!!
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068767
12/07/2010 21:40
12/07/2010 21:40
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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well, some you win, some you lose  i lost  got the whole car for a reasonably cheap price, well it would have been if the engine turned out to be a runner  bought it as a non-runner hoping it would be able to be resurected, cam-belt was still in place and moved with the crank shaft so that was a good sign. no battery on it so couldn't turn it over to check, decided it was worth a gamble as it still had all the other parts i will be needing like the wiring loom/ecus/gearbox/brembos/alloys etc etc so even if the engine was dead a replacememnt could be found. i like to be optimistic in these things  what's the worst that can happen  well now i know what the worst can be, a holed (missing even  ) piston on No.4. i can move the con-rod with my screwdriver down the spark plug hole so even though i have all the parts i need the biggest part is probably no use to me  never mind, once the car is stripped i will take it apart to have a proper look, but i very much doubt there will be much to salvage, maybe the head if i'm very lucky car now breaking for spares on the for sale section, less the parts i will need. onwards and upwards 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068769
12/07/2010 21:42
12/07/2010 21:42
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MattM
Unregistered
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MattM
Unregistered
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That's really bad luck Kev, sorry to hear it
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068784
12/07/2010 21:52
12/07/2010 21:52
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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well it was a gamble mate, worth the risk as i saw it. just i didn't get the break this time won't stop me though, just makes me more determined 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068797
12/07/2010 22:09
12/07/2010 22:09
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MattM
Unregistered
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MattM
Unregistered
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Hopefully you'll be able to make most of the money back from breaking it for spares
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068837
13/07/2010 02:01
13/07/2010 02:01
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ninja
Unregistered
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ninja
Unregistered
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there are still many parts you could use of the coupe even if the engine does not run (running gear, suspension, brakes, electrics, ancileries) if i were you i would get them all swapped over ready for the block, then get something built to spec  and drop that in, you dont need to buy another whole coupe! Ninja
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1068850
13/07/2010 06:29
13/07/2010 06:29
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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that's the plan mate, always was my intention to break it for spares as i only need the running gear and the engine electrical bits & bobs. nothing has changed apart from i will be needing another engine  can't see it being salvaged, the con-rod will most likely have been battering the bores without the piston holding it steady  don't know if the head can be saved yet, will see once it's out and taken apart. so no, i won't indeed be needing another car as you say, just the important oily bit  there are still many parts you could use of the coupe even if the engine does not run (running gear, suspension, brakes, electrics, ancileries) if i were you i would get them all swapped over ready for the block, then get something built to spec  and drop that in, you dont need to buy another whole coupe! Ninja
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1071039
16/07/2010 22:27
16/07/2010 22:27
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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posted a couple of pics on my build thread, but how do you post the photobucket pics as thumbnails, like the mod kindly changed them on my first post to?? interesting pics by the way, have a look and see if you can spot where my engine problems lay 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1071190
17/07/2010 10:07
17/07/2010 10:07
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,754 Berlin
barnacle
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,754
Berlin
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: barnacle]
#1075547
24/07/2010 20:07
24/07/2010 20:07
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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i've now taken the complete engine wiring loom out complete with the ecu from just inside the car, pleased to find it didn't snake too far and is pretty much self contained, just a couple of questions though. this 3pin plug, where/what does it go to it sits by the drivers side suspension turret but i'm damned if i can trace it with my multi-meter. found the green one goes to the relays near the ecu but the orange & the grey one??? would be asking for too much for the same connector to be on the alfa loom  although i haven't yet looked also the code system. do i need to use it? doesn't seem to be hard wired into the ecu/engine loom anywhere (unless it's in with those 3 wires i can't trace :?) and i know the alfa uses a similar system, well i think it does  would be a lot easier to leave the alfa key/switch etc in if possible in any (easy) way your help would be appreciated guys 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: ]
#1080637
03/08/2010 21:31
03/08/2010 21:31
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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got most of the wiring sorted now, apart from one vital thing. on the coupe there is a decent sized orange wire from the ignition switch to the engine loom, an igntion/ecu supply i guess? on the 145 the ignition switch deosn't have this wire although the terminal is in place on the back of the switch, just nothing on it. i've checked and it supplies the feed needed, power when in ignition position and doesn't disappear when on "start" position (starter engaged) so should be able to do the job?? the alfa doesn't seem to have a decent type feed like this, maybe the ecu does things different? this is really bugging me now, i really don't like wiring and i hate it when i can't get my head around things but surely if i can create the same scenario of wiring in the 145 that the coupe had then all wil be fine? but what about the code system? will any supply need to go through that? it didn't look to have done on the coupe, although i haven't stripped the whole loom back to check, just done the continuity type testing. i have swapped the coupes' code box into the alfa, the coupe wiring loom complete with it's ecu, so will it be ok to just create the powre supply to the orange wire? any help would be apprecited guys, i need help on this bit  once this is solved i'm almost ready for the fresh engine to go in. everything else has been swapped over, even things i didn't know i would have to  little details like the brake servo pipe being different, and the accelerator cable, so really looking forward to getting on with some spanner work and put the wiring to bed 
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Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.
[Re: barnacle]
#1081770
05/08/2010 20:48
05/08/2010 20:48
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
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On the coupe, that orange wire supplies pretty much everything that needs power on ignition, apart from the starter circuits... lights spring to mind. If you look on the wiring diagrams there's loads fed from that orange wire, if you follow it around. thanks for the reply mate, much appreciated  i've now wired up the 145 igntion switch the same way as the coupe. the extra terminal that isn't used normally on the 145 supplies exactly the same feed as the corresponding terminal on the coupes' switch, so it makes sense to just use that with some decent sized wire, the coupe's orange wire to be exact  once i got my head around it then it's simply a case of replicating things on the 145 that was on the coupe. i've checked the wiring on the code box connections also, although they are different colours between the 2 cars the corresponding wires serve the same purpose, they end up at the same destination  fingers crossed it should be ok now 
Last edited by kev_sud_qv; 05/08/2010 20:48.
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