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Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. #1038097
17/05/2010 21:06
17/05/2010 21:06

K
kev_sud_qv
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Hi guys.
A few of you have been very helpfull already with advice on my intension of fitting the Coupe running gear into an Alfa 145, so now I am starting a proper thread to gain even more knowledge from you!

I intend on buying a complete Coupe so I have everything to hand. I have read that most parts are straightforward to swap over with the Coupe and Alfa pretty similar under the bonnet, dimensionally and in the layout. Should be an easy swap as transplants go!

My choice is now to either go for the 16V turbo or the 20V turbo.

I have read the 16VT is easier to tune with the integrale gear and will maybe be easier to fit?
But I just love the exhaust note of the 20VT and doing things different appeals greatly to me, if I'm to go to the trouble of swapping over then I may as well do it as good as I can!

The things I know I will need are,
Engine/Gearbox
Drive-shafts/hubs/suspension/brakes etc
Wiring loom/ECU/keys/steering column
Exhaust front pipe & cat
Water radiator/oil rad & all pipework for both
Sub-frame

Anything else I've overlooked?

I have been looking for a Coupe that is either damaged or an MoT fail so it will a/ keep the costs down & b/ not waste a perfectly useable car.

Will also consider one with a broken cam-belt if the price reflected a non-runner as cahnging the cam-belt & taking the head off for a check over would be on my to-do list anyway.

All comments welcome guys thumb

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1038107
17/05/2010 21:15
17/05/2010 21:15
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,275
West Berks
skinflint Offline
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Just in case you haven't seen this thread and the 2 16vt projects here's a link.

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: skinflint] #1038110
17/05/2010 21:27
17/05/2010 21:27

K
kev_sud_qv
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yep, had a look over those 2 cars cool

i was kind of thinking about how easy it might be before i started to search, i imagined having to fabricate engine mounts and the like, but i was really surprised to learn that things can be swapped over pretty easily party

knowing it has been done before with the 16VT gives me encouragement, but i really want to go the 20VT route suicide laugh

seen the bravo & marea have had the conversion done, and they are pretty much the same under the bonnet as the 145 so should be ok??

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1038121
17/05/2010 21:48
17/05/2010 21:48
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,004
Leeds
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MattM Offline
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Very interested to see your progree Kev and me and a pal were considering this conversion for a while.

Things that put us off were;

1) Loads of wiring, the engine loom and ECU will be easy to swap other but i *think* you will have to re-wire pretty mch everything else in the car (i.e dash, windows, radio etc etc) Unless your using it as a track motor?

2) Apparently there are some issues with the brakes. You will need a different master cylinder in order to fit the engine in i *think*.

try dropping Johnnybravoturbo a PM, he knows all about this and advised me

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: MattM] #1038160
17/05/2010 22:53
17/05/2010 22:53

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



Originally Posted By: MattM
Very interested to see your progree Kev and me and a pal were considering this conversion for a while.

Things that put us off were;

1) Loads of wiring, the engine loom and ECU will be easy to swap other but i *think* you will have to re-wire pretty mch everything else in the car (i.e dash, windows, radio etc etc) Unless your using it as a track motor?

2) Apparently there are some issues with the brakes. You will need a different master cylinder in order to fit the engine in i *think*.

try dropping Johnnybravoturbo a PM, he knows all about this and advised me


would be maybe used on the track, but would be set for the road mainly so everything would need to work.
splicing the looms together was one of my concerns, but the guys that have put the 16VT in a 145 before managed it so at least it can be done bow

details like the brake master cylinder/servo being in the way is something i haven't considered, is that just on the 20VT? or is the 16VT in need of similar mods?
all questions & answers to sort through before i jump in, thanks for bringing it up thumb

will pm johnny also, thanks for that cool

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1038871
18/05/2010 22:15
18/05/2010 22:15

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



any views on which engine is best, 16VT or 20VT confused

a couple of 16VT's on ebay at the mo that seem to suit my needs, but would rather have the 20VT

but, if the 16VT gains you extra in other areas like less weight (are they much lighter chinny ) and more easily tuneable then it may be worth considering,

but i do like the 5pot burble laugh

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1038878
18/05/2010 22:23
18/05/2010 22:23
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,004
Leeds
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MattM Offline
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I wouldn't say the 16vt is more tuneable, both routes are pretty tuneable and i'd say it will cost you a lot less money to get 300bhp out of a 20vt then it will a 16vt.

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: MattM] #1038888
18/05/2010 22:39
18/05/2010 22:39

K
kev_sud_qv
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K



Originally Posted By: MattM
I wouldn't say the 16vt is more tuneable, both routes are pretty tuneable and i'd say it will cost you a lot less money to get 300bhp out of a 20vt then it will a 16vt.



just i read/heard somewhere that the integrale stuff is compatible with the 16VT?

to be honest i don't think i would be satisfied with the 16VT, i had set my mind on doing the 5pot motor just to be that bit different and if i fitted the 4pot i would be alwasy thinking "what if" rolleyes

20VT it is then laugh

300 bhp is more than i want at this moment though, stock will suffice to start with cool

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1058827
24/06/2010 20:26
24/06/2010 20:26

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



ok guys, i have a 145 now which has been prepped ready which for an alfa means welding up the floor to sill area laugh the engine & 'box etc will be out this weekend so i'm ready for a coupe now cool

if anyone knows of a suitable one near the lincs area then i would be glad to know wink

an mot failed one would suit, or a damaged one. thumb

could post some pics on the build thread but as it's only alfa stuff so far i will hold back, unless anyone wants to see them. looking forward now to getting a coupe to start the real work cool

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1059265
25/06/2010 13:55
25/06/2010 13:55
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 21
Greece, Agrinio
Varypodaros Offline
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Greece, Agrinio
http://alfa155.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29588

you should see this. as you know, 145 and 155 are the same car under the hood.

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: Varypodaros] #1059521
25/06/2010 22:09
25/06/2010 22:09

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



yep, seen that one, looks like it will be a cracker cool

itching to get on with the proper work now laugh

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1061657
29/06/2010 21:06
29/06/2010 21:06

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



will buying a car without the red master key be an issue?
heard all sorts of stories about how it can cause all sorts of problems, mainly not being able to start the engine cry

will just having a plain key cause me any issues?

heard that spare keys can be cloned, but thought that could only be done using the master key confused

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1063426
03/07/2010 00:33
03/07/2010 00:33
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 21
Greece, Agrinio
Varypodaros Offline
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Posts: 21
Greece, Agrinio
I'm not sure about this... will you put on your car the CODE unit? it's a little bit tricky to do. If you don't do it, you'll have to unlock your ECU and it will start working without Imo at all...

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: Varypodaros] #1063540
03/07/2010 12:22
03/07/2010 12:22

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



i will do whatever is the easiest/best wya to do it. if that means using the code system from my donor coupe then so be it. i just want it to work when i get it done laugh

the only issue i have is if buying a car that has say just the silver key, will that cause any issues with the transplant?? i will be suing the whole engine loom with the steering lock/switch/key plus the ecu so the keys etc will still think they are in a coupe rather than now in a 145. i was just wondering about any issues with not having the red key incase the ecu needs resetting once everything is swapped over. bearing in mind it will be a fair while with things unplugged confused

thanks in advance for any advice guys, i really do appreciate it wink

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1068251
11/07/2010 21:27
11/07/2010 21:27

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



i now have a 20VT so will be getting on soon with things.
trouble is, now i've got a complete car i quite like it, i don't want to break it apart cry

still, will have a few parts for you guys laugh

will start a thread on the breaking/for sale section soon

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1068368
12/07/2010 08:15
12/07/2010 08:15

M
Marco20valveT
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M



haha thats what happened to me when i got the 20vt for a tipo 20vt project!!!

going to be a really interesting build mate!!

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1068767
12/07/2010 21:40
12/07/2010 21:40

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



well, some you win, some you lose cry i lost laugh

got the whole car for a reasonably cheap price, well it would have been if the engine turned out to be a runner frown

bought it as a non-runner hoping it would be able to be resurected, cam-belt was still in place and moved with the crank shaft so that was a good sign.
no battery on it so couldn't turn it over to check, decided it was worth a gamble as it still had all the other parts i will be needing like the wiring loom/ecus/gearbox/brembos/alloys etc etc so even if the engine was dead a replacememnt could be found.
i like to be optimistic in these things cloud9 what's the worst that can happen coffee

well now i know what the worst can be, a holed (missing even chinny) piston on No.4. i can move the con-rod with my screwdriver down the spark plug hole biglaugh


so even though i have all the parts i need the biggest part is probably no use to me loser

never mind, once the car is stripped i will take it apart to have a proper look, but i very much doubt there will be much to salvage, maybe the head if i'm very lucky

car now breaking for spares on the for sale section, less the parts i will need.

onwards and upwards party

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1068769
12/07/2010 21:42
12/07/2010 21:42
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,004
Leeds
M
MattM Offline
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MattM  Offline
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M

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,004
Leeds
That's really bad luck Kev, sorry to hear it

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: MattM] #1068784
12/07/2010 21:52
12/07/2010 21:52

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



well it was a gamble mate, worth the risk as i saw it.

just i didn't get the break this time

won't stop me though, just makes me more determined wink

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1068797
12/07/2010 22:09
12/07/2010 22:09
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,004
Leeds
M
MattM Offline
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MattM  Offline
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Posts: 3,004
Leeds
Hopefully you'll be able to make most of the money back from breaking it for spares

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: MattM] #1068837
13/07/2010 02:01
13/07/2010 02:01

N
ninja
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there are still many parts you could use of the coupe even if the engine does not run (running gear, suspension, brakes, electrics, ancileries)

if i were you i would get them all swapped over ready for the block, then get something built to spec wink and drop that in, you dont need to buy another whole coupe!

Ninja

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1068850
13/07/2010 06:29
13/07/2010 06:29

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



that's the plan mate, always was my intention to break it for spares as i only need the running gear and the engine electrical bits & bobs.
nothing has changed apart from i will be needing another engine frown can't see it being salvaged, the con-rod will most likely have been battering the bores without the piston holding it steady smash
don't know if the head can be saved yet, will see once it's out and taken apart.

so no, i won't indeed be needing another car as you say, just the important oily bit thumb

Originally Posted By: ninja
there are still many parts you could use of the coupe even if the engine does not run (running gear, suspension, brakes, electrics, ancileries)

if i were you i would get them all swapped over ready for the block, then get something built to spec wink and drop that in, you dont need to buy another whole coupe!

Ninja

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1071039
16/07/2010 22:27
16/07/2010 22:27

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



posted a couple of pics on my build thread, but how do you post the photobucket pics as thumbnails, like the mod kindly changed them on my first post to??

interesting pics by the way, have a look and see if you can spot where my engine problems lay laugh

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1071127
17/07/2010 06:24
17/07/2010 06:24
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,502
Berlin
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Berlin
Kevin, I just changed them on your new post - you need to grab the 'direct link' address from photobucket (looks like this: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/nailed_barnacle/Quantum%20engine/P7030075.jpg and is just a pointer to the image, whereas the 'email and im' link is like this: http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/n...nt=P7030075.jpg and includes some browser instructions too) - and then wrap it in [ imgpop] and [ /imgpop] tags.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: barnacle] #1071131
17/07/2010 06:42
17/07/2010 06:42

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



click to enlarge

hope this has worked confused

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1071190
17/07/2010 10:07
17/07/2010 10:07
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,502
Berlin
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Berlin
Yep.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: barnacle] #1075547
24/07/2010 20:07
24/07/2010 20:07

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



i've now taken the complete engine wiring loom out complete with the ecu from just inside the car, pleased to find it didn't snake too far and is pretty much self contained, just a couple of questions though.

this 3pin plug, where/what does it go to confused

click to enlarge


click to enlarge


it sits by the drivers side suspension turret but i'm damned if i can trace it with my multi-meter. found the green one goes to the relays near the ecu but the orange & the grey one???

would be asking for too much for the same connector to be on the alfa loom nono although i haven't yet looked

also the code system. do i need to use it?
doesn't seem to be hard wired into the ecu/engine loom anywhere (unless it's in with those 3 wires i can't trace :?) and i know the alfa uses a similar system, well i think it does rolleyes

would be a lot easier to leave the alfa key/switch etc in if possible in any (easy) way


your help would be appreciated guys thumb

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1080637
03/08/2010 21:31
03/08/2010 21:31

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
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K



got most of the wiring sorted now, apart from one vital thing.
on the coupe there is a decent sized orange wire from the ignition switch to the engine loom, an igntion/ecu supply i guess?
on the 145 the ignition switch deosn't have this wire although the terminal is in place on the back of the switch, just nothing on it. i've checked and it supplies the feed needed, power when in ignition position and doesn't disappear when on "start" position (starter engaged) so should be able to do the job??

the alfa doesn't seem to have a decent type feed like this, maybe the ecu does things different?

this is really bugging me now, i really don't like wiring and i hate it when i can't get my head around things but surely if i can create the same scenario of wiring in the 145 that the coupe had then all wil be fine?

but what about the code system? will any supply need to go through that? it didn't look to have done on the coupe, although i haven't stripped the whole loom back to check, just done the continuity type testing.

i have swapped the coupes' code box into the alfa, the coupe wiring loom complete with it's ecu, so will it be ok to just create the powre supply to the orange wire?

any help would be apprecited guys, i need help on this bit cry

once this is solved i'm almost ready for the fresh engine to go in. everything else has been swapped over, even things i didn't know i would have to laugh
little details like the brake servo pipe being different, and the accelerator cable, so really looking forward to getting on with some spanner work and put the wiring to bed cool

Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: ] #1081360
05/08/2010 10:22
05/08/2010 10:22
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,502
Berlin
barnacle Offline
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Posts: 33,502
Berlin
On the coupe, that orange wire supplies pretty much everything that needs power on ignition, apart from the starter circuits... lights spring to mind. If you look on the wiring diagrams there's loads fed from that orange wire, if you follow it around.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread. [Re: barnacle] #1081770
05/08/2010 20:48
05/08/2010 20:48

K
kev_sud_qv
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kev_sud_qv
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: barnacle
On the coupe, that orange wire supplies pretty much everything that needs power on ignition, apart from the starter circuits... lights spring to mind. If you look on the wiring diagrams there's loads fed from that orange wire, if you follow it around.


thanks for the reply mate, much appreciated cool

i've now wired up the 145 igntion switch the same way as the coupe. the extra terminal that isn't used normally on the 145 supplies exactly the same feed as the corresponding terminal on the coupes' switch, so it makes sense to just use that with some decent sized wire, the coupe's orange wire to be exact laugh
once i got my head around it then it's simply a case of replicating things on the 145 that was on the coupe.
i've checked the wiring on the code box connections also, although they are different colours between the 2 cars the corresponding wires serve the same purpose, they end up at the same destination cool

fingers crossed it should be ok now wink

Last edited by kev_sud_qv; 05/08/2010 20:48.
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