Finally got my Coupe dyno'd

289.0 lbs/ft torque @ 3622 rpm @ 17 psi (1.17 bar)

261.2 bhp (225.5 ATW) @ 5794 rpm @ 16 psi (1.1 bar)

I 'coloured in' the dots for clarity. Ignore the AFR line, the dyno's lambda sensor spazzed out halfway through the run! The AFR is 11.3 all the way:


Mods to date are:
homebuilt T34 hybrid , 44 trim comp, 48 a/r turb
-31 actuator
Universal Intercoolers FMIC
FCCK2000 stainless tubular manifold
homebuilt 2.5" downpipe
full 2.5" exhaust system
(partly!) homebuilt 2.5" decat
Astra VXR 440cc injectors
FSE 1:1 FPR
255 lph fuel pump
Fully rebuilt engine
head with knife-edged port dividers, exhaust/inlet ports matched with manifolds
Fiat Tipo 16V inlet cam
Home-mapped using Tunerpro RT

Cost? Well, barring the engine build, honestly it's less than some people spend on a new turbo. Including the engine build? Less than some people would spend on an intercooler, and shiny pipes and dump valve to go with their new turbo!

I'm fairly happy with 260 bhp This particular spec turbo isn't really capable of doing more than about 270bhp. I mean, it is possible to wring alot more out of it but only by hammering the boost. Its obvious that the .48 turbine housing becomes an obstruction any higher.
I've spoken to several turbo builders and tuners and they've all said the T34 is capable of running 1.8 bar reliably, so who go higher? I don't like buying turbos every year.

TBH I don't care too much about peak bhp figures. What really care about is having a strong, rapid, driveable engine. The engine pulls right to the redline, and boost starts at 2500 and peaks around 3500. Boost hits the way I like it - [censored] quickly! Screw nice linear acceleration. I made that turbo and I want it to work for me goddammit!

Well I should be happy with having a fairly rapid road car with loads of real-world driveability. But it bugs me that the .48 turb housing strangles top-end power, hence the torque being "higher" than the bhp. I should just save my money and be happy - but I know me by now and I won't...

Good result KJ

yeah agreed you can really see the .48 max at out about 5000rpm flow wise, even with the other mods which should support more such as head work and cam etc. I run the same housing with a stage 2 turbine and it moved max flow to 5500rpm got the same 295ft/lbs as you but a little higher up so better peak power, however boost perhaps 300rpm later

I link to my graph FYI very similar curves and you can see the torque also drop away at 5500rpm but perhaps to a lesser extent with the stage 2 wheel.

I was told stage 1 about 260, stage 2 about 290bhp, stage 3 320bhp on the .48 and this seems to be the case



So a .63 hotside then is it?

and can you remind us the t04 compressor wheel you run? it's a t04b I assume

Hi, thanks. Cold side is a T04E 44 trim Apparently good for 320bhp.

Yep I want a .63 hotside! When I can afford it

Another thing: with this .48 a/r on my current setup I find it very easy to get part throttle compressor surge. It could be overcome with some careful boost control, but I just use careful foot control instead

Recently I emailed the guy who built this monster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMiVy5B_LW4

and he's making pretty immense power with a relatively humble simple setup I think the turbo might even be one of those Ebay-type ones! Even mapped it himself:

"I have both cams from tipo 16v. T3T4 similar to GT3582R, ar63. Manifold is cheap 38mm from Blueflame, exhaust 2.75."

Soemthing like 370bhp at a measly 1.1 bar

Shows you don't need to throw money at your engine if you do it right.

Hi, im the guy you mean.

Im happy to make this kind of power, it can sound easy, but it was long way to this power. Before i solved some ignition troubles i make only 300bhp on 1.5bar , with same setup.

Turbo is not clasic Ebay china with fake spec. But i cant remeber compressor spec. Exhaust wheel is stage 3. Its too big for 2ltr engine.

I dont know about TO4E 44trim, only 40/46/50... maybe you are running absolutely out of efficiency range.

Not to hijack kj, but phoB you mean the Gt35 .63, stage 3 is too big for a 2l?

and can I ask what iginition changes you made for such a big jump in BHP from 300bhp to over 350bhp

Hi, Phob. Welcome to the forum Yeah I guessed that it wasn't a "Chinesebay" turbo after I posted that last message. I looked at your video again and noticed your turbo was water cooled. All the Chinesebay turbos are oil cooled. My mistake!

Were your ignition problems the same one Dink mentioned in a recent post? IIRC weak spark blowing out. How did you solve it?

44 Trim T04E: According to my calculations it's running well within its effciency range and should do at 300bhp+, as long as peak bhp is above 6000 rpm. Need to take some measurements to check.

Its pretty boring waiting till 4500-5000rpm for boost. Im not very happy from that. Only 2000rpm for fun.
Soon i will tune friend´s 16vt with T3/T4 T04E 50trim and stage2 AR.63 turbine. I think it will suit much more for reliable and responsible 300-400hp level.

My ignition problems was in iridium racing sparkplugs, im using cheap NGK now. Custom made low resistance MSD wires and mainly badly configured ignition trigger setup in Megasquirt ecu. I was running about 7-9 degrees less. It was luck, that engine survived...

Nice, it's not all about spending thousands. This kind of build is great

How are you finding TunerPro, are you using a Moates Ostrich and if so, what's the map tracing like? I'm having to adjust, burn chip, road test, adjust, burn chip, road test ad infinitum lol.

I've been playing around with the XDF file of yours. Made some modifications so that the checksum is calculated correctly for the 194_05 ECUs, and also rolled back some changes so certain parameters are in line with the Escort Cosworth P8 map calculations.

It would be good to get a more complete set of addresses, I've looked at the stock file in WinOLS, but I'm teaching myself as I go along.

You can get a lot more from that turbo, 17 psi is nothing, really. Have you thought about a 3" exhaust system as well? I'm a real sucker for silly boost & high BHP figures, I don't know how you can cope running just 17 psi...

Good results KJ...... Hadn't commented earlier as i've just this second landed home from cyprus and there was a probably logging on to forum there....!

Did you do away with the standard turbo elbow, i'm sure its in your project thread but can't remember.....
Or Is your DIY downpipe straight off the exhaust housing?

definitely a lot more potential in your turbo though buddy..... Are you going wind the boost up a little at a later stage and get dyno'd again!

I'm little concerned now about all the talk of the 48 housing
Straggling the power as I decided to keep mine and i'm hoping for over 350 bhp with no more than 1.45 bar of boost!?
I'm not actually sure of the spec of my new turbo but its deffinately alot bigger than my t3 super 60 was!

Anyway back on topic about the 48 exhaust housing......
I've found more than one example of of T34 cossies using 48 housing.... Running very close to 400 bhp....
And before anyone says anything I realise they are totally different engines.... But at the end off the day its still just a 2 litre turbo engine and am I right in saying they run a lower compression ratio??
Also there results were not with CRAZY boost..... I think the one was running 22 psi with only approx 1.6 bar!

I might be talking utter crap...... But the engines aren't really a million miles apart..... I'm really hoping I haven't made a mistake keeping the small exhaust housing?

Anyways keep up the good work KJ!

Nick

any cosworth running 400bhp or close will be running a .63 housing and will be running 2 bar pressure or similar.the 48 housing will get you to about 360bhp,and there is a .55 housing available,if a little rare which will get you closer with better spool than the .63,but in my opinion the .63 is the perfect road going turbo for a cosworth (or similar) engine.
oh and the cossie motor runs 8:1 cr as well.

Well i'm a little apprehensive then about my goal!
I have looked into the 55 housing and this may be an option as I know somewhere I may be able to get one..... They are very rare though and I don't believe anyone has done this with the coup yet?

Nick

Cheers mate. Hi, yeah I use TunerPro and Moates Ostrich. I'd DEFINITELY recommend getting an Ostrich! It's so worth it just for the amount of time you'll save not having to burn/erase EPROMS.

I had a play with TP v5 Beta with map tracing but couldn't get it to work so I thought I'd wait until the fully tested final version is released.

Yeah the 2.5" system will probably the next obstacle on the way to 300bhp. Don't think I can the time to rebuild the entire system. I wonder if just a 3" downpipe would do?

Cheers, Yeah my downpipe bolts straight to the hot-side flange.

I've been looking for some examples of Cossie bhp and specs of parts exhaust dia. turbine a/r, etc) but haven't found anything. #got any links?

If you type into google 'what brake horse is you cosworth'
You should find a link to a pasion ford thread..... Loads of different specs and dyno results on there!

My mistake regarding some getting close to 400 bhp with 48.... More like 360-370, though one of them with only with 1.6 bar!

Your exhaust should be sound for 300..... My 2.5" inch was making 306 bhp ... That was with t3 super 60 which is very close to the one your now running now I believe?
Think you just need to turn you boost up.... Mine was about
1.35-1.4 bar irc...?

Nick

Ps. If you find that link to the cossies post the link onto this thread dude..... I can't as i'm using my phone!.. Cheers

^^ Good find!^^

http://passionford.com/forum/ford-sierra...contribute.html

nick,dont be afraid of boost,get a cossie turbo fitted with a 360 degree bearing and turn it up ive seen 2 bar plus on all the garrett t3s and t34s and they love it.the smaller housings spool up a BIT quicker but really run out of puff at the higher end,whereas when i went to a big spec engine running a .63 housing t34 it really pulled at the top end with very little noticeable difference from a completely standard setup,barring the HUGE diference in power (418bhp,409lb/ft recorded on SCS engine dyno),i ran the turbo at 34psi peak,which tailed off to 24 psi by the redline which gave a fantastic midrange.full boost was between 3500 and 3700rpm so not a lot of additional boost thjreshold and no real difference in lag either.id suggest a 3 bar map sensor for proper boost though!
any questions on cosworth setups just ask,i have done extensive research and have a long history with the yb,my favourite engine ever!

Thanks for the info dude..... Think I'm going slap the 55 housing on it and get it mapped to around max of 20 psi! I probably will get mapped at higher boost down the line, but only when I can afford ebc so can have 3 different setting and also a more extensive re map, map should only need a tweak this time round which is obviously cheaper!

probably going keep as is for about 12 months, to allow the money bin to replenish it's self..... Lol!
If I was in KJ's position i.e doing my own mapping, I'd get the 3 bar map sensor straight on it....... Then wind the boost right up!
Go one KJ .... You know you want to!

nick

Damn you lot. Making me spend my money! .63 housing, 360 degree bearing, then uprated clutch to hold it all together! You know I'm going have to go do it now!

BTW Nick, If you haven't done so already, I definitely recommend sacking off the stock actuator and fitting a Cossie -31. I'm sure GS will agree it holds boost sooo much better!

Right, I'm off to go do a bank job...

-31 or -34 yeah, they are a must pretty much.

Right. Made some fairly major changes to my spec since last year - including getting that 63 a/r hot-side I mentioned!

I'll post up details on my Project thread when I get the chance, but I thought it was about time I posted up a little preview of what I've been up to so far:

Built myself a new 3" downpipe back in December


Also in December got fed up of messing around with wastegate actuators so I converted my manifold to run an external wastegate.


Been trying out different cam-timing settings recently and this was the latest result: Around 300 bhp at somewhere between 1.2-1.3 bar, NOT 350! Wobbly graph and great big spike due to woefully under-inflates tyres and unfinished map. Second run aborted due to burst boost hose


Tuning business has picked up greatly of late so my own car must go on the back burner. I'll finish tuning and post up the final results if/when I get the chance!

Bit hard to see the dyno results (small pic) but mods look good

you finding much change to be had in the cam timing?

Can see the spike but have you got a scanner, or a close up pic of the plot. Either way 300bhp is a good result for a low down torque 16vt

I'll try to post up a better image this evening.

That's right, 16VT (on stock/near-stock cams and head) makes a lot of low-down torque but quickly dies off at higher revs. With the big 63 a/r hot-side everything happens higher up the rpm range. So what we get is an engine that wants to make low-end torque, with a turbo that wants to make high-end power.
So I've been playing with the cam timing to try to match the engine's characteristics with the turbo's characteristics.


I'll post up more detail about my findings with cam timing on my Project page in the near future.

Looking good KJ, I'll see you on the 19th mate

2 bar in the midrange ought to sort it out!good torque followed by good top end power!
enjoy reading your posts tbh,quite a good read from someone doing it themselves,hope to see some good results from this one.

A clearer scanned image:

BTW, the pen marks are torque and power lines from a previous run I did with different cam settings. As I mentioned above, more on that at a later date.

Alexjames: Thanks. I look forward to seeing you soon!

GS_Racing: 2-bar eh? Now if I was going to run 2 bar I'd want to make it run 2 bar all the way and that would involve forged internals, mucho grande headwork, building a brand new manifold, bigger MAP sensor, etc, etc... Hmmm, (checks bank account)

if you run 2 bar in the midrange you will be making better use of your injectors and head in the midrange(they can flow for more boost in the midrange than the top end) then drop to 22-23psi at the top end as boost does not equal flow so you will still be making power,its how my cars have usually been set up,works fantastically on the road.anyone not running a mid range spike is missing out on vital mid range performance in my opinion.but it is harder on the transmission.

Right, it's been a long time coming but finally got a chance to finish tuning. The result: 321 bhp / 296 lbft @ 1.3 bar. After spending a far amount of time on the dyno playing with cam timing I managed to acheive my primary objective, which was to get reasonable midrange torque and still make power over 6000rpm, instead of dying a death around 5500rpm like 16VTs tend to do.


The complete spec as it currently stands:
homebuilt hybrid T34 turbo, 44-trim comp, .63 a/r turb. housing, stock Coupe wheel, 360 deg. thrust bearing, staggered-gap oil seal
Demon Motorsport 35mm external wastegate with (surprisingly quiet) screamer pipe
tubular exhaust manifold modified for external wastegate
Homebuilt 3" downpipe
2.5" decat and exhaust system
Siemens 660cc injecotors
FSE 1:1 FPR @ 3 bar
Universal Intercoolers FMIC
255 lph fuel pump with "wiring mod"
fully rebuilt engine
Wossner forged pistons
head with knife-edged port dividers, exhaust/inlet ports matched with manifolds
Tipo 16V inlet cam and Pulley
Home-mapped - of course

More detail on the build in my project thread:
http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=794652#Post794652

I also posted up my findings with Tipo cam timing in this thread here:
http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1191994#Post1191994

Sorry, going to quote out of context here, but all you need to do is slap a bigger turbo on, in fact, a GT3076 will give you more power and torque earlier than the T34 you've built, plus more top end too. At my redline I'm still developing 380bhp

A ball bearing turbo like yours would spool quicker and help build midrange torque. My old skool (but MUCH cheaper! A GT30 centre housing costs more than my entire turbo! ) T34 doesn't hit full boost until 4500 rpm.

But the top end, in the case of this setup, is totally down to cam timing. Have a look at my post in the second link above to see what I mean. Same setup at the same boost, but a difference of abot 40 bhp and 700 rpm just from adjusting the cam timing. With the wrong timing a bigger turbo wouldn't have made more power, just a higher peak torque figure.

When talking about turbocharged cars, people tend to forget about cam timing but it's just as important as on N/A cars

320 bhp is about the maximum from this turbo. In the future I might get into the 21st century and get a new-fangled bb turbo - and build a better manifold to go with it. But this'll do for time-being. I want to concentrate on the tuning business. Plus I'd like to work on other aspects of the car - like making it go round corners!