I am finally getting the coupe to handle like i want it, and the last trip to barbz has got me really close.

My set up is:
Gaz coilovers with different springs, Faulkner have made me a longer 10" 300lb front spring and a std style 325lb rear spring.

Gaz/balance caster topmounts with bearings replaced.

22mm arb.

barbz concentric washers for camber.

poly wishbones/ rear solid subframe bushes.

strutbrace/lower brace.

trackrod ends droplinks recently replaced.

Falken 452 tyres (37psi f / 32psi r)

Recaro Speed seats/smaller momo steering.

Over all the car feels very good.
I have changed the springs from the ones supplied and for me the suspension is much better this way, I now have tons of grip and and the cars feels much more supple, I can now give it beans down country roads and not get bounced everywhere,the suspension soaks it up way better than before.

The ride is still firm but much improved,little bumps are just glided over, bigger bumps are still hard but the suspension feels more together and now has an "air of quality to it" the pro's out way the con's so I can live with a bit more body roll.

The stiffer rear ratio springs and arb helps turn-in and understeer,it also helps weight transfer when accelerating reducing wheelspin.
I was worried I would get loads of lift of oveersteer ,it can skip a little in tight low speed stuff but overall the rear feels planted.
I am sure you could provoke lift of oversteer but thats not my driving style.

My only remaining gripe is the steering feel/weight, its far to light and a bit numb,I think this is how the steering is to a certain degree but it did seem better before this last geometry.
I have found that toe in and toe out makes a big difference to the steering,and i have got a feeling they have not done what I asked?

I wanted std 2mm toe in and std 0.5 degree camber as I have positive caster so the camber should increase as i turn reducing straight line tyre wear.(should i run more static camber)

Barbz said that my rear arms don't have any play so I didn't change the trailing arm bearings.


So would people mind looking at my print out and tell me what they think,are my trailing arm bearings ok? and what have they set the toe at?( is it 1mm toe out?)

print out

It should be quite a forgiving ride at 300lbs, I've got 550Lbs front springs with 250-550lbs progressive tender springs.

The Eibach ERS catalogue is here if you ever need some good quality springs, they have pretty much everything covered. I believe Gaz are the same as the Leda's with a 2.5" spring?

If you have the extra caster top mounts, it should give you some extra steering weight, apart from that, your figures look great, very accurate set up, whoever did it, they did it well.

Where did you get it done Jonone?

the place barbz takes it!

is it 2mm toe-in though? i dont know how to work out the degree's!

Using 16" (406mm) as the wheel diameter I get

tan0’03” * 406mm = 0.21mm
tan0’22” * 406mm = 1.55mm
tan0’11” * 406mm = 0.779mm

Not sure if I'm using the calculator correctly to put in the minutes.

Sorry I don't understand the above

I looked on the net and it seems to be 0.06 degrees = 1mm?

So i would have thought 2mm toe-in would be -0.12 ????

ok,I have realised that its relevant to the rim size!
using this calculator it says it should be 0.28 degree's for 2mm.
but is toe in shown as + or -?

When the wheels are turned in, toe is positive (+). When the wheels are turned out, toe is negative (-)

I'm going to be doing my tracking in a minute using a long piece of cotton, some elastic and a ruler.

The theory is that when pulled the cotton will be straight, so I can set up the front wheels relative to the rears.

Track
front 1491 mm
rear 1468 mm

So on each side I'll need a spacer that's (1491-1468)/2 = 11.5mm to widen up the rear track, then when pulled, if the cotton is flush to the tyre at the front and back then I have 0 toe in, and if I put a 2mm spacer in at the front of the front tyre and get it flush I'll have 2mm of toe in I hope???

So have i got 2mm toe in?

How on earth are you going to get the cotton to sit on the mid point on the wheel, there's an engine and gearbox in the way!

Jonone, just trust the settings you've got, it's a nightmare trying to convert mm to deg but if it helps you sleep better, your toe figures are the same as mine

so toe in?

You've got toe in of 0 degrees 03 minutes.
My calculation made that 0.2 mm, and your calculator makes the same number, so no, you havent got 2mm toe in.

I'm using the line from the front to the back wheel, not across the front.
Also I reckon it will slot into the tread which will keep it in place.

Thanks Skinflint!
I thought i did not have 2mm toe in, I can feel the difference!
I have read the string technique is still used and is regarded as accurate as lazer!

Thanks for posting up the eibach catalogue jimbo,ive studied it
I was at 450lb with the same 250/550 tender once but it did not work for me, also the platforms rub on the gaz setup!

The standard Coupe has no toe in, and I preferred the way my NA handled with no toe in. I don't know why the Turbo has different geometry.

The other thing is that the way the Fiat manual puts it you measure toe in by subtracting the distance between the front of the wheels from the distance at the back of the wheels, so that doubles the 0.2mm to 0.4mm.

The distance between the front of the front wheels and the back of the front wheels is the only way of measuring front toe in mm.

I've had mine set at dead straight before when the wheel alignment operator messed up and thought it was a 16vt, it wandered around under acceleration so I guess the 20vt toe is there for that reason?

Jonone, what's the ride height like with the 10" spring?

That's the definition of front toe in, but as you rightly say you can't measure that directly as the engine is in the way, so the solution is to use the back wheel as a reference point.
Problem with that is that the rear axle is narrower than the front axle so there's a need to correct for it.

Having done that you theoretically have a perfectly parallel line running down the side of the car and can measure toe in.

It probably isn't as good as a four wheel laser tracking job but I'm skint, and it also means I can keep the car well away from the tyre fitter and his jacks and oxy-acetylene torches.

Providing your rear toe is ok or you have to compensate for that too!
Have you seen the drive on plates that tell you your toe angle, they always go very cheap on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Home-Car-Van-Wheel...9#ht_1835wt_814

This type of thing, this one is new but used ones go for a few pounds.

Thanks
There are some instructions for it here as well.

I appreciate what you're saying about the rears. The trailing arm bearing can be a bit of a problem.

Its at std ride height or maybe a touch lower,a 300lb 10" spring compress's to just over 7" on the front of the car,the collars are right down to the bottom of the thread,maybe an inch to go.

I get so much more droop now(I have not measured it) it takes a little while for the wheel to come off the ground when jacking the the car up now!

overall i'm much happier with the setup like this!

Here's a photo of the thread technique done on the Alfa.

I nicked the wife's pink thread for a laser like effect.
I put some 5mm spacers on the rear to account for the narrower track at the back later on.

It turns out the rear toe-in settings are off on one side.

It was very easy to adjust as you can see what you are doing precisely. The thread doesn't move at all in the breeze etc.

I'll do the Fiat in the same way when it is back in one piece.

does this mean i ask for 2mm toe in but actually end up with 4mm or i should ask for 4mm toe in?

ask for 2mm toe-in, or maybe just a little bit less

Anything less than 1mm toe-in will start to lose the 'planted' feel (although turn-in grip will feel better)

Ah geometry settings, i have a full folder of them. You can play with these until your hearts content and never get the same thing twice. Sometimes the way you drive will suit different settings, sometimes the tyres you are using will suit differnt settings. I've just changed from running R888's to slicks and was running 2.5 degrees camber at the front but we are going to have to take a full degree at least off as this setting was overheating the inside of the slick, so much i had a tyre fail on Wednesday flat in 5th at the end of the straight at Knockhill. Probably down to that. We also ran the car parallel as opposed to toeing out but it feels very vague on turn in. Yes this is a different application but you have to remember jonone it's for your driving not how someone else drives your car.

I have loads of print outs as my uys have a pro align machine which i've learnt to use. Great bit of kit and you just follow all the directions on screen and you get a print out every time as well as having your settiings saved on that machine so you can see what the caheng is next time you have it done. Usually about £80 to get it don but well worth it.

Nigel on another note i'm having a fully adjustable back axle made that won't be super expensive so i'll let you know when it's finished if it's any good. Be able to adjust camber and toe.

Would be interesting to see how you get on - it would certainly be good if you can adjust the rear end for stability, while still keeping a pointy front end. However, I'm pretty sure it would be wasted on a road car - anyone that's exploring the Coupe's handling limits on the road is only a small step away from exploring a hedge

I had the rear beam cut and re-welded to give negative camber on my Pug 205, totally cured the little Pug's tendency to step the rear end out if you lifted off mid bend.

How are you getting the adjustability built into the rear beam Marco, is it goint to adjust at the stub axle or on the arm?

Like you say Sparco I have got to do what feels right for me.
Its interesting that you also find your steering vague with toe straight ahead,I find its also very light!

Have you done anything about adding more weight to the steering?
I am going to try and look into getting the power steering pump pressure reduced.

I am going to get the geometry set up again soon, how much camber can you run before you start to loose stability and straight line grip?

I have increased caster so when i turn the wheel the camber increases but I don't know how much,should I stick to 0.5 degrees negative camber each side or do people think I should run more?

You can go a bit more on the negative camber, without losing stability. I run just over 1 degree and my car is pretty stable at any speed you car to mention (up to 70, of course, officer...)