I have been following the

Specialists - How good is their work...

thread since the first post,and before i start with this let me just make this clear.

Me or my company have never dealt with the car or the person or persons in question.


Now bare with me on this one as its not often you see me take a post seriously..
And its a long read...

The thread has hit a nerve for me personally in a big way.

The following isnt to slander or to cause issues but to add my piece to an ever growing issue.

Now the part that i found most irritating was that several people were forcing a name of a company to be revealed.
Well done to the member in question for not doing.

Freedom of speech i agree with as most of you know im not shy with words,However the damage that this can cause is more than just wanting to know the name of the company involved.

The facts:-
650 people Viewed that post before it was locked.Thats 650 and growing.

Over 600 looked or browsed over the post but didnt comment.

If a name was mantioned then again they still wouldve kept quiet but the name would stick in there minds when having work done.
No matter what the response by the trader,most wouldnt see anything but the initial post and slating of a company.

The club has now put a note on each section that its between the trader and the customer.

Yet potentially a completely one sided view can be aired without anyone moderating this.
By this time the damage has been done regardless of the 3 sides to the story.

I dont claim to be the best at what i do but i have near 15 years of experience with the Coupe,yet im man enough to let Barbz and Flea work on my car as there knowledge and experience on certain aspects is far superior to mine.


On average i deal with 150-200 invoices a year.So thats 150-200 cars a year to be precise.
Out of that 200 lets say for round figures 20 jobs may have issues.4 out of those jobs will go wrong in a big way.
A way that as a direct result of your work that something on the vehicle has failed or isnt working properly.
This may be a faulty part,a dent on a panel or something that you havent noticed.

Regardless of cost to me i always put this right,some dont but thats there choice.
Im as honest as they come and if its my fault i hold my hands up and put it right.
Most people respect that and will return despite previous issues.But the odd one wont as you have lost there trust which is understandable and at this point its making the best out of the situation.

Its not always as straightforward as this though.

For instance last week i got a call from a chap who swore alot and called my company.
Despite my best efforts to calm him down it didnt work,so i told him if he has a problem to see me face to face rather than on the phone.

So he showed up with several of his friends as backup to try and intimidate me saying he wanted £2000 for the damage i had caused to his car.
He showed me an invoice of the repairs i carried out.
Followed by pictures and a report from another garage.

Recovered to garage by AA:-
Check and found no compression.
Found timing idler loose,
Timing now out causing engine damage.

All with pictures.
I remember all my customers cars but this one in particular as i did the work for a previous owner who traveled down from an island off the North of Scotland.
One of the reasons i remember it so well is as i went to start the car it missed a beat,and i knew straight away it was down on compression.
I did a comp test and unfortunately i was right.
But he wanted the belts doing still so i carried out the replacement belt kit myself as im the only one who works on these cars.

I knew full well that the bolt wasnt left loose but i was being threatened by the chap that he would post up on the forum and cause trouble

So i dug a little deeper and rang the previous owner.
Luckily he answered the phone.

With the phone on speakerphone i asked him about the car.

''Did you have any work carried out on the car after i did the belts?''.

''Yes'' was the response,he had an engine replaced about a month after he saw me,by the same garage the cars at now as luck would have it..
The garage denied this,and he said he paid cash to keep the cost down so had no way of proving it until he remembered that he had to take it back to them a day later as there was a strange noise coming from the timing area.
Diagnosed as the alternator.
This time with an invoice.So they were lying.

The chap in question said sorry to me several times and offered me £20 for my trouble which i refused to take

I cant stress enough that the potential for damage to a company on the internet is far worse than anywhere else.


For me i have a degree in engineering and have had several really nice easy jobs that paid well but i hated them.

Money isnt everything and i took a 25k paycut a year to earn if im lucky 20k a year being self employed.
Ontop of that my partner only works part time and i have 3 kids to support,one on the way a mortgage and a very expensive Italian car to maintain.
i need motivation to be good at a job,and unless i feel that it doesnt inspire me then i wont do it.
My job i wouldnt change for any amount of money.
Those who have met me know how passionate i am about what i do.

In short theres alot of people that are proud to say that one of us looks after your car.So much so that some even put it in there signatures and others have it on vinyl stuck to there cars.

In my opinion if a company operates a ''cowboy'' policy then its the clubs job to ensure for the safety of the members that there removed.
However i dont think its right that individuals hold so much power over ''hear say'' and nothing can be done to prevent this.

My point to this is we work on a 12-15 year old car and we dont know what happens to it when it leaves our workshops.
A post to discredit someones ability MUST be due to a direct result of that traders work without a shadow of a doubt.
Most owners these days have a 3k budget and dont factor into the budget the repairs that come along with them.

Speak to the trader first,then voice an opinion to the admin which i can assure you will find the truth and back both of you.
Enough said.

That's a good post, well said JBT!

i completely agree, i have been thinking about it all day whilst working on my coupe

and who it was and what damage this could potentially do to the specialist even though at this moment in time the two sides of the story arent known,.

my opinion anyway is you dont forget to put 3 bolts into the bell housing,.
he wasnt the owner of the car when the work was done therefore.( ah carry on forum,.)
ill stop moaning before i get banned again.


hope everything is well dude.

Some valid points in there JBT, but i fail to see why the original poster should be praised for not giving out the name of the 'specialist' in question.

It was his thread, his experience, his right to name and shame.

Its all very well to say that you, or other places might resolve issues with un happy customers, but thats hardly the point.

My post isnt to resurrect a dispute or to put blame on anyone.
Its simply to voice my opinion on the damage that can be caused ,as i will know,.
The post may or may not be factual but this shouldnt be for any of the members to decide.
I know who was involved but i dont know the ins and outs,and care not to as its between them and thats how it should stay.

This on here needs to stop as its messing with peoples lives not just there businesses .
The traders i have dealt with put the person before the £££ signs.


These arent the issues,but i sympathize with your response.
The issues are that anyone can post up a bad experience.
And on here thousands will see it.
Its not fair and shouldnt be allowed regardless until a full investigation has taken place.

For some its good reading,for others its something to bear in mind but for most its enough to avoid using the trader in question.
And without a response from them.
Its wrong.

Although I agree with the potentially damaging result of that thread for the company involved, that's the risk you take as a trader. You are benefiting from the forum environment. But you are also at it's mercy.

I'm not saying it's right to slander a company without consulting them first, but it was the posters choice to do so. I've never dealt with you jbt but the other thread regarding the guy that you replaced his engine FOC means a lot to me, more so than a few bolts missing from a gearbox. Cause I know now that If you'd made that mistake you'd rectify it.

Hence why although that post is bad for the company involved, the very nature of the forum allows those who are clever enough to read between the ass kissing and the people who are never happy, to make their own choice.

Ross

Any other response from me would be repetitive,i hope that before these future posts that its not you involved,nor me but viewing something with an open mind is a must.

Again,the poster in this situation may be justified,this is just my view.
Although im a company in most eyes,im a person with real debts and problems.
I think its only justified not to voice them here until a solution ro the problem has been found.
If the trader is found guilty then its there own fault for cutting corners.
On here is very ''cut throat'' in its approach to a bad situation.

This club is very close and usually does the right thing but in this case i think fails to support the main reason why most of us own coupes today.

Pretty much spot on h2ypr.

I think people have a right to know all the facts before they take their car to any garage, in particular ones that advertise as being 'specialists'.

I think its foolish to think that mistakes don't happen along the way, and some will be rectified, however, the place in question while regarded highly by many, it seems if you scratch the surface, there are a growing number of very un happy customers.

JBT - i sympathize with your feelings as a trader, i've never met you, (although you have previously worked on my car) so in no way am i pointing fingers at you, but like i said, i think potential customers deserve the right to make an informed decision on where they take their car for work to be done.

My post isnt to resurrect a dispute or to put blame on anyone.

neither was mine johnny,

i was merely saying i cant see anyone forgetting to put 3 bolts in, least of all someone who is used to working on coupes.
i called you up yesterday whilst taking out my gearbox for some info and asked about where the bolts were and how many there were holding the box on,
and you knew from memory and told me straight out. so im guessing this car has been worked on after the specialist,
but without there input (which i would rather not here unless its a good outcome) then who knows,

specialists arent monkeys and i agree they do put the client first.
im sure your debts and all the free bies and bits your have given away and done for your customers will make everyone agree.

PS im in no way inplying that you are in debt

I couldnt agree more.This is in no way to cover things up,quite the opposite.Its to reveal if someones done something silly.With the permision of the forum after investigation then its a definitive bad job.
Rather than the reading between the lines.
But its the Ebay scenario.
100 good feedback and 1 bad and we all look what went wrong on the bad.


You need to calm yourself down Jason its past your bedtime
That clutch will be with you soon so that only gives you 4 more days and nights to get the box out.

Great post JBT

I'm not in the same profession as you but its similar.

I run a busy restaurant, circa 2000 covers (customers) a week.
Like you I'm passionate about what I do, customers are the be all and end all of everything I do.

But, sometimes despite the best efforts of my team and I, it goes wrong.
If the customer tells us (or we sense it / realise it) I'll pull out all the stops to ensure the issue is fixed to the customers satisfaction.
But sometimes people just don't tell you, they pretend everything is great when it isn't, then go home and write a complaint to head office (or post on a forum) about how this that and the next thing was wrong.
Granted that is their right to do so and we have a feedback section on our website especially for that,
but...... if they just voiced these concerns at the time it could have been resolved there and then and they would have left with a positive experience rather than a negative one.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are not happy with the service you recieve from somewhere.... tell them!

Any decent customer based business will bend over backwards to right their wrong and make you happy.
But if you dont tell them, they cant fix it.

At the end of the day, we're all human and as such we sometimes make mistakes, even though we try not to.

Which is why I agree with JBT in saying that the OP was right not to name the specialist

just my 2p

Paul

ps this was in response to the original post

You need to calm yourself down Jason its past your bedtime
That clutch will be with you soon so that only gives you 4 more days and nights to get the box out. [/quote]

Past my bed time! haha
Yeah imagine you got 5 working day delivery for that clutch !!!good service lol thanks alot mate.
haha does any specialist need a new mechanic, i come with a coupe in pieces. looking for a full time live in position. (answer no!) oh really howcome haha

What!!!!!!!! It said online that it was 2-3 days?
I got ripped off.
Do you want me to send you out another one if you need it quick and you can return the other one when it gets to you?

Maybe not the best thread to post that on Jason

I understand your view of not naming the trader,myself if i had an issue i would always attempt to talk to the trader first,give them the opportunity to put right.

How they respond will help constitute how good the service or not as were all human and errors can be made.How they deal with those after plays a huge part of the service delivered..



My point to the thread on naming is really,what point did that thread actually make without a name?

There wasn't one really without naming,it just unsettles people and stirs people to guessing who.

90% of people here likely get work completed on there coupe's from specialists and naturally if there's anything wrong we would usually automatically complain...get a reasonable response and the original query will never see the light on the forum.

The specific thread had put some presumption that a certain trader had lapsed on more than one occassion and rocks the forum boat to which trader it is...

They cant resolve problems without knowing the issue in the first place...hence not giving them a chance to defend the allegation.. when they first here it on the forum..

JBT Im not in a rush dude> but if i did thanks very much for the offer to send another one out faster. Top man. Good service right there! you have all seen it lol

Just one for future reference JBT
ps it was meant to lighten everything up a little bit. i dont take myself serious most of the time,

i hope noone of you guys do either

What take you seriously.... dont be silly

When I am paying for a job to be done I expect it to be done properly. If I didn't mind that there was a chance the job would be done wrong then I would do it myself if I had the time. At the same time would I like it to cost me if I made a mistake at work? Lose some pay or get the sack for something that I did not mean to do?

If a job is done for me and it goes wrong then I would give them a chance to correct it. If they refused or were incapable then I would let people know. I would then make sure I did my best to get it corrected. If like JBT said they admitted fault and fixed the problem I would be happy.

I am as close to perfect as you will find. Even I made a mistake once

so the question comes around again. About the 50th time now

Has the specialist been asked about what happened?
And more importantly has he/she been given the oppurtunity to offer Rectification
Has the previous owner of the coupe been spoken to and the absolute truth obtained.

This needs to be delt with as i have even started thinking that maybe i am the person in question who fitted the clutch

Ps Johnny i got the box out yesterday thanks very much

There is no inspection hole in gearbox casing Jason so it was not you who fitted it

As a newbie I'm naturally interested in knowing about specialists that I can trust and also those that I might like to avoid.

However, I know I'm not the only one to have serious concerns about the way this has been done and have a few observations, for what it's worth.

Firstly, Biggenz OP in the locked thread went as follows:-

First thing to note is that you didn't take it back to the specialist that had, according to the previous owners receipt, fitted a new clutch. Therefore, you didn't give the accused specialist the opportunity to rectify the problem, assuming that it was his problem.

This may have been understandable if you either had no confidence in this specialist, or you always preferred to use Barbz at Torque Italia anyway.

OK, so Barbz takes it apart and tells you about the missing bolts, the damaged release bearing and that everything is loose in there. By the way. "Everything was loose inside," is that your term or Barbz's? and what does it actually mean? as it seems from your posts and subsequent appearance of your secondhand Helix clutch, that nothing was damaged, apart from the release bearing!

So, you could have simply got Barbz to replace release bearing with a new one and reassembled with the full complement of bolts. That way, you probably would have had a good case to go to the previous owner's specialist supplier with your complaint and asked him to fund the release bearing and the labour incurred to replace it.

Again, this assumes that you can prove that nothing happened between him originally fitting the Helix clutch and you taking ownership of the car. Just saying that the previous owner would have had no reason to have done anything to the gearbox doesn't mean that he didn't.

So instead of doing that, you muddied the waters by taking the opportunity to upgrade your clutch, so we'll never know what response the original specialist may have made, as he never got the chance.

Now to your next post:-
Despite the comments of some other posters who have a very high opinion of themselves, nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes from time to time. Obviously what counts is how we deal with those mistakes and I've seen no evidence that the specialist concerned has been given the opportunity to make his case and why should he? If he comes onto the forum to defend his position, everyone knows who he is and may subconciously or conciously avoid using him, hence giving him what you hadn't intended, a bad reputation.

Now your third post:-
Your assertion that you have a receipt from the previous owner to prove that the accused specialist is in some way to blame for your clutch woes, does not constitute proof and as mentioned earlier, you didn't need to replace the clutch, just the release bearing and three bolts.

Don't misunderstand me. If it can be proven that a specialist has done a shoddy or negligent job and has shown no interest in rectifying the situation, I'm all for naming and shaming. But in my eyes and I think also when it comes to libel or deformation of character laws, the specialist remains with reputation in tact until it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that they are in the wrong.

Your forth post:-
So the cat is out of the bag as to who we are talking about and the damage to their reputation is already happening, without having the opportunity to rectify a problem that may or may not have been of their making. This is why these problems should be thrashed out between the various parties away from this site and only brought to the attention of the Admins if it can't be resolved.

You are on very dangerous ground here if you don't have absolute proof to back up your case and I can assure you from the comments made so far you definitely do not have that standard of proof or have not shown it yet.

Anyway, before you air these issues here, what is wrong with attempting to resolve your issues first with the specialist concerned and if not satisfied go to Citizens Advice, Trading Standards and if your case is good even go to the Small Claims Court. None of these are difficult to do and none of them will get you into trouble.

Your next post:-
Like I said, this doesn't prove a thing. You may have strong suspicions, in fact you may believe for all your worth that your position is correct, but it still doesn't constitute proof.

JBT's OP in this thread is spot on. Yes, we all want to know who to trust and who not, but it has to be done the right way.

Biggenz, I'm not looking for an argument with you and I'm sure that you felt you were doing the forum a service, as well as being mighty frustrated at having to spend money that you didn't feel was down to you. Maybe you're right and maybe not. Either way it's not the point. This should have been done behind closed doors.

Best regards
Pigman

Can I just say that I was one of the 600 or so watchers of the other post (and this one), there are some very interesting points being raised on the threads.

My personal view is that human beings do make mistakes, a quick look at any history book will show you that NONE of us are infallible,

The Specialists are not demi gods, they are mechanics with an intimate knowledge of the coupe, they do the best they can with a 17 year old design and at best an almost 11 year old car. A car with many foibles, and one that is high performance as standard and which has in many cases been modified beyond it's original spec and often has a comparatively high mileage.

There will always be occasions when it goes wrong, where a customer feels (either rightly or wrongly) that the "specialist" either caused or should have rectified a problem. In which case the proper course of action has to be to contact (via PM or phone) the specialist concerned and see what they have to say. To make allegations on a public forum which you cannot prove to be true, is unfair and if it turns out that you are wrong could open you up to a libel prosecution. (Take a look at JBT's post above, for an example of how easy it is to get something wrong).

I have a local specialist, whose work I always check afterwards, not because I do not trust him, but because I work in an industry where I understand how human factors cause accidents. If I had a problem, I would call the specialist first.

One of the things I do like with my local Specialist, is that I not only get the work I want completed, (and in my experience. completed to the required standard), I also get the benefit of their knowledge.

I do believe that the mark of a good specialist, or indeed any company is how they resolve problems. I have also read posts on this forum where specialists have gone far above what you would expect them to do.

So to the many specialists can I just say, that we do greatly appreciate your efforts, respect your knowledge and we do understand that you may occasionally make mistakes. Please carry on supporting the car we love, don't be disheartened by the few problems and carry on doing what you are doing.

Mick

and therein lies the issue - who actually knows the FACTS??? all that's been stated are opinions, some people seem to take opinion as read when they don't know the person making the allegations nor the history behind the alleged fault - hence why it's best to stay quiet unless and until you know the FACTS

alos, i don't recall any ofthe so called specialists advertising themselves as such - that's something perpetuated on here and in people's minds - yes they ARE specialists to an extent but that doesn't make them infallible scientists

The "specialists" do clearly market their specialism. Just look at their various websites!!!

Seems everyone is desperately searching for a grey area to explain away these incidents!!

People who specialise have spotted a niche which can be exploited to make a good living. That is all. This happens in all walks of life!!

Caveat Emptor

having looked at their web sites a retract the comment, some of them actually do describe themselves as specialists

And so they should do, but that proves nothing to this thread, liken it to any job, in my company I am a commercial specialist, but I make mistakes very occasionally, but I am still a specialist, mistakes do not change the term! Don't get bogged down on one word

This is more interesting than the X Files.

Coupedummy:-This isnt how it should be done,and below is why



Again i refer to my original post.Out of the jobs we do on average if were unlucky 4 will go wrong in a big way.
Now the fact that someone has pm'd rather than to make it public would suggest that although there may be an issue with that trader in the past,he has obviously sorted that problem or it wouldve been voiced in the same way Biggenz did.
This post is very public and personally if it was me i would make damn sure i commented if i was the specialist in question.
But if they are unaware then its not fair to name names without looking into all 3 sides.
And my point is its not up for the public to cast judgement on hearing one side to the story.

What you need to remember is were more experienced than main dealers on this product.
I worked for 5 main dealers at Fiat,Alfa,Renault,Peugeot and Ultima.
Other than the latter they all had one person employed constantly just to deal with customer complaints.
Most dealers have on average 60 people in there team.
I have one.From answering the phone to waving goodbye,i do it all and it takes a long time to perfect this process in getting it right and adjusting to every customer so they feel they have a more personal relationship rather than just a customer.

The accusations are a concern and potentially dangerous so i can understand the motives and its frustrating to see shoddy workmaship so entirely understand the nature of the post.

Every single trader at some point has been subject to this type of issue publically.
In my case i was having people comment who didnt even know me or how i operate.
And yes just like above im sure that theres a few i have upset who wouldnt go public as i have sorted there issue but would happily still stick the knife in behind closed doors.
Those who know me stuck up for me in a big way which was inspiring as lets be right,im only there mechanic.
I am a well known member on her both acting as Midlands car servicing and as Johnny bravo.
Most have seen me in overalls and the rest on various social and track events..
That makes up a small part of the forum.The rest who dont know me would look upon such a thread if it was me in question and i twould leave an impression.

Again i cant stress enough that quoting from previous threads or dragging up issues in the past isnt the motivation here for me.
All this will do is start to upset the parties involved which isnt my intentions,.

This is the forum,this is the issues us as traders have to be careful of and a side most dont see.

I think at the end of the day, if a specialist has messed up, they must not only just rectify, but go further than normal to make the customer happy. If that is not done then they are in essence not protecting their business and in certain instances should be named and shamed.

The way it goes is in the hand of the specialist and if they don't handle it well, they have themselves to blame.