In a previous life I worked for a multinational chemical company; one of my responsibilities was to coordinate any customer complaints. Everyone makes mistakes, but the key to a continuing customer relationship was to treat every complaint as fully and promptly as possible. This involved me with a certain amount of international travel - I can assure you that dealing with an angry buyer in Lagos is not an experience I would recommend to anyone. At least my customer provided me with an armed guard to get me from the airport to the factory .

A complaint from a customer should be regarded as an opportunity, not a problem, and I always found that if handled correctly the customer relationship could actually be stronger than it was before the incident. The point I am trying to make after all this waffle is that the issue that started this thread was poorly handled IMHO, has been allowed to fester rather than resolved immediately and has now cast a cloud of suspicion over quite a few people that will take a long while to settle......

a) Facts
b) Discussion
c) Resolution

99% of the time this will work quickly to everyone's satisfaction and life will go on.

Tim

Timothy,if only it was that easy.

That said,you did react very well when i phoned you up to say i had just blew your clutch up.

I like your response

I agree, but at the moment, I'm not sure the specialist in question even knows that there's a problem.

The forum/club stance is that if a problem is experienced, the first action is always to approach the garage. In the vast majority of cases, the specialist will probably offer to put the problem right, at which point, as far as I can see, the problem is resolved.

If the specialist denies all responsibility, or simply refuses to entertain any liability, THEN there's a problem worth talking about.

It's been said many times, but its worth repeating (again) - the sign of a good specialist is not how few mistakes are made, but how the mistakes are dealt with. Paul has dropped a couple of minor clangers on my car over the years, but they were always corrected without argument, and were always accompanied by an apology.

Totally agree Nigel. Humans can make mistakes, but the degree of rectification is a decision by the individual, and that's where a good specialist will shine.

I've not seen that other thread at all, so this is a generic comment rather than a specific one.

But I think the key phrase here is "innocent until proven guilty", which a public airing of a grievance without all sides of a story present and correct doesn't exactly lend itself well to.

Even specialists are human (although only barely, in some cases ), and can therefore make mistakes. As a customer on the wrong end of a mistake I dare say I wouldn't be too happy - but I would at least give the person who made that mistake the chance to put it right, and I'd be as polite as possible about it until they gave me reason to act otherwise.

The response from that point on is what would make me consider posting about it/discussing it on a forum (or wherever).

If a company provides shoddy service and workmanship, people need to know about it. But only if it's come from a reasonabe greivance, with the appropriate opportunity for the mistake to be rectified, and with all the accompanying proof required for it to be 'fact' and not 'opinion'.

Amen brother, well said.

Interesting post as it turns out.

I can see both sides, the traders perspective and the customers.

To quote Nigel

"It's been said many times, but its worth repeating (again) - the sign of a good specialist is not how few mistakes are made, but how the mistakes are dealt with"

This stands true but...

Unless I'm missing the point here, the point of this post is to ultimately denie one on here the right to voice there negative point of view towards a garage?

John, not directed at you, and I think your post is a wonderful example from your side, and illustrates the point of people needing to be informed and measured in there responses.

If I pay for a holiday, get there and have a horrid old time with poor service and bad rooms, negating the fact that the company may have tried to resolve the issue once I'm home, I have still had a bad experience would it be wrong not to tell some one?

If I my post gets delivered scrupled and with foot prints on (has happened) and I complain and get a sorry, am I wrong not to feel the need to voice my dissatisfaction with the service regardless of their "sorry" ?

Lets get one thing strait, bad customers exist, businesses will and do suffer financially because of half sided arguments and some one getting the wrong end of the stick, but to denie the ability to speech poor of a service is still wrong.

All any one can ask is that the OP is well measured in there post, the suppler of services gets a chance to put there point across of events and then the thread gets locked so people like me cant put there size 14 feet in and stamp around accepting nothing but agrivating the already inflamed situation?

Live by the sword, dy by the sword all we can ask is every one is fair... which will never happen.

my point, no one wins!

logicically every one should be banned from speaking about where they take there cars to be fixed and specialists should not be on the forum...problem solved (joking tag here)

You can be as nice as you like, but you STILL ain't having your Brembos back....

Unless I'm missing something here, it seems clear that right now there is no PROOF that the specialist in question did anything wrong. And I don't think the forum should be used as a place for people to air their dirty laundry, or to make unsubstantiated claims, particularly when the specialist has not been given the opportunity to resolve the problem or defend themselves. It serves no purpose other than to raise doubts in people's minds about the integrity of ALL specialists who have a presence on this forum, which is not a good thing in my opinion.

sam if i pick the meaning of your post correctly, i don't think anyone is denying freedom of speech as such.

with vested interests of various parties and their ability or not to know of the complaint and offer a reply, specifics shouldn't really be mentioned until resolution or otherwise is offered imo. bottom line for me is we have no idea if the OP on that thread is right, what the background is and what if any attempts at resolution have been made, it's all being based on one persons word. I'm not saying he's wrong i'm saying no-one else knows the FACTS and so no-one else should be sitting in judgement

Im not stating they should be named and shames john.far from...

Just stating starting a thread like that without details further unsettles readers and leads to guess who .witchunt....equal pointless thread...likely more of a rant I suppose..
Contact with specialist should have been made first before a thread bashing.give a chance to resolve as im sure if they responded positively the feedback would have been different.
I hugely agree with you john...

My veiws tho..

I've read this thread with interest and the main conclusion I've come to is that I'm going to do my best in the future to use JBT to service my car as he has proved to me, beyond doubt, that he is exactly the kind of person I want to look after it.

The debate regarding 'specialists' can rage on, however, from my point of view we (coupe owners) have a duty to protect our specialists if we want future access to their skills and knowledge.

If you buy some crap trousers from specialist clothing retailer Marks and Spencer and want to 'name and shame' them on an internet forum, feel free, as i can't imagine they'll care, millions of people will continue using them regardless.

If you get what you see as poor service from one of our specialists, and you decide to 'name and shame' them on this forum, prepare for them to go out of business as I suspect 80% of their customers come from this forum.

This is fine for the first couple, however, does anyone want to be left with having to turn to a monopoly to buy parts and services from? By using a specialist you've already answered that as you've decided against using the monopoly of the main dealer.

Yes, specialists will make mistakes and JBT has admitted as much, however, be very careful about how you proceed past discussing it with them, as if they're waiting in line at the job centre, they won't be in a position to fix your issue. Personally, I'd go to the citizens advice, small claims court, trading standards, etc., before posting anything potentially slanderous on here as it is unlikely to help you.

With such a small and devoted comunity, any 'specialist' who makes more than an acceptable number of mistakes and fails to rectify them will eventually go out of business due to lack of repeat custom, so the situation is pretty much self policing as it stands.

Feel free to 'name and shame' but you won't have any grounds to complain when there are no specialists left!

For example...a sad story of someone I know...

A middle aged balding man go to buy a jumper...and a so called fashion expert says hey you need buy a purple v-neck one,its all the rage...
He then wears it all weekend with pride infront of hundreds of people...
The crowds are mocking and laughing at him because of this feminate homosexual jumper...
He gets home to face the crowds at home who already know about THE JUMPER!
The mocking continues and he begins to cry like allittle girl...his life will never be the same

Dont you think he has the right to air his opinion and name and shame...

I think he does.....

Never take styling tips from patch again steve....lesson learned the hard way!

Edit :

coupedummy's, that was a bloody great write up

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA CD thats brilliant

OMG!!!!

CD - that has earned you a few pints free of charge mate!!

that was brilliant!!!!!

you rotten bastard reubs

I have never met you Alex but this is exactly the point that i initially set out to make.
My opinion is your spot on in your post,and thanks for taking the time to look at it like that.

Can i just say (being the pedantic git that I am), that if you write/post something then that is not slander/slanderous, it is in fact libel/libellous.

Slander is when you say something defamatory or malicious about someone
Libel is when you write or broadcast something defamatory or malicious.

I am now putting my tin hat on and getting into my foxhole..... ;-)

to be repetitive,im not defending the unknown but if i advertised on tv then maybe 100 people would see it.
This forum specifically targets the owners of the vehicle that you work on.
Therefor i quote the power of ''hear say'' once again is very damaging and its without proof.

i was aware that this post would touch a few nerves with some folk due to experiences and opinions etc but on the whole it was to view the side of the trader.
Alot of people are very cautious of traders but if a trader is good at what he/she does and is honest then its the other way round.
As apposed to 10 years ago nowadays you have to get the job done quicker,using cheaper parts,using better parts,explain in detail the work undertaken,clean the car,offer alternative tyransport,and the key factor in this is ontop of it all you have to be cheaper.
Most of us offer a better service than a main dealer at a fraction of the price.Very hard to do day in day out all year and please eveeryone.

Let me get this straight, the owner of the car took it in for a new clutch - there were some bolts found missing, and something about a loose clutch. If a clutch is loose surely it would be slipping like mad, in which case why is the same clutch now for sale on here?

Furthermore, the poster said the car had the clutch fitted last year? Since then it changed owners twice and covered 20k miles? ? I suspect it may have been more than 1 year ago that it was fitted... we don’t know if the specialist involved has communicated with the poster who now owns the car, nor do we know where the owner in between took the car and what they did to it, why should the specialist feel the need to post on here? His obligation, if ANY, is to contact the current owner to discuss.

Jesus guys we need to have some faith in garages, particularly coupe specialists who DO have our/your best interests at heart and stop bickering about it.

All specialists will make mistakes, it’s down to the customer to approach them and deal with it between them, and it’s none of our business what goes on. It can become a public matter only if the garage doesn’t come to an agreement with the owner that is appropriate, at which point the owner has received a good service and a warranty repair.

Most normal garages don’t even warranty their work, and they’d prob tell us where to go if we went back complaining. Our specialists do fix problems and try to keep us happy, some of that have bad experiences, even if fixed, will still choose to not use that same garage/specialist again, and that is understandable, but if they refunded or repaired the fault then give them a break, they did what was required.

If the problem was that bad then I simply refuse to believe the clutch would have lasted 20k miles, it’s just not possible.

Rant over

The term specialist is misleading, ultimately there are good and bad garages, good and bad mechanics. The terms good and bad relate to many attributes, skill, knowledge, diligence, communication, honesty etc.

So it's fair to say just because a garage may specialise in a vehicle doesn't automatically make them any better than any normal garage and all the pitfalls that finding a good one can bring. Equally can be said about customers, some may blame blindly if they have issues others make a better judgement and communicate this better.

It's a tough call, I get you JBT and you kind of live in both camps as an enthusisat (with us motley crue :P) and a trader, but if there are specialist Coupe garages who are clearly not up to the job, it should be known (by means of osmosis) by the community and not hushed up all the time.

Maybe a new forum should be created for bad customers

Here are the facts:

The clutch was not fitted last year - I said I bought the car last year.

Since I had the car, it was near enough undrivable in traffic, as it was so juddery it nearly shook the car apart. I was convinced I had a paddle clutch, it was so bad. I had to live with this everyday and drive 30 miles through London to work and back.

When I said the clutch was loose inside, the bolts holding everything together was not secure.

The clutch did not get progressively worse, it was always a nightmare to drive, and was the same with the previous owner, as this was one of the first things I asked him when I took the car for a test drive.

I did speak to the garage in question. They told me they have done the job properly.

Look at the pictures of the release bearing and tell me if that would happen when a clutch was fitted properly.

I think by specialist here though we're talking about a select few that we all know and respect. Considering all the specialists have been around for several years, i'd think it'd have been pretty detrimental to their reputations if any of them were repeatedly cocking up and not rectifying the situation with some aftercare.

I'm sure they have all got a few unhappy customers lurking around, but on a percentage basis it must be very low.

My dad used to be a specialist diesel mech for many years.

We were doing this one 4x4, complete engine overhaul, rings bearings valve the works, pump and injector recon.

Once all back together we started her up but she ran out of fuel pronto,

Diesel being a rare comodity in africa was then sourced by the customer who was a wheeler dealer.

20 litre container into the tank, and we are good to go,

An hour later after severe priming of the pump and all that good stuff, she starts splutters and then dies, all afternoon this continues and when it eventually runs for 2 minutes lumpy as anything, the smoke bellowing out of the exhaust was something even me after having a turbo on my coupe fail very badly have never seen smoke like it.

Darkest grey. New turbo on the truck and everything so we start worrying,

Anyway we get to thinking maybe the pump is shoddy or the injectors are shot!

So we get new ones at our cost. Which was a fortune over there, probably 3 months wages tbh.

Still the same after the new bits.

So we rip the engine out again. Rebuild everything again repalcing the rings again, the stem seals, guides and re grind the valves for good measure again because we are running out of ideas

After 3 weeks of this truck breaking our backs we think back and get the diesel out of the tank put some new stuff in.

Vroommmmmm. Perfect,

The customer had bought hydraulic fluid instead of diesel.

This escapade bankrupted my old man and he never said a thing, he kept on smiling to his kids, to the customer and to himself, because he was the best.and he took pride in his work, even though he wasn't in the slightest in the wrong. Things over there are different though,

Similar basics though. Of which I am happy to put my trust in who evers hands I have judged good enough to work on my car even in my brief period of motor mechs.

So let's stop bickering and air our opinions and then that's it, because we know nothing , the full story is obscured. Pick who you use to do your work by what kind of a man the mech is, even if he isn't the most highly recommended a good sound man will make sure that even when problems arise, that he is the man to sort them out for you,


Now completely unrelated.
Joes son' Jake at FCSS, that was me 10 years ago, spot on, I said snap as soon as I walked in and met them all.

Jason

Thats a great first post Zimpara, now keep your second and third like that

In all seriousness tho story, dont think would have kept my cool, did the guy not even offer to pay some of the expense that your old man had incurred?

I remember the first time i met jake... it was at the blue water meet a few years back and he had his head inside someone car changing the plugs for them. I was very impressed He also helped out a great deal when stripping marcos car gr8 chap

That was a good post Jason.

Think its the first one of yours i've actually understood!

Still cant see how it lasted 20k if fitted badly. Surely it either fits, or doesnt fit. In any case, glad you now have it sorted. The basic purpose of this thread is that we have concluded 'coupe speicalists are not gods' END

Yep, I think that was Vickster's coupe Mario. I could not believe my eyes.

So you're saying he actually did a very good BAD job for it to have lasted this long? Believe me, it was like wrestling a bull home everyday.