Greetings!

I am interested to acquire a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo - to use little and also to keep in the hope that one day it proves to be investment. To that end, I will care more about low mileage and original condition, than I will about it (necessarily) being a Limited Edition or late, 6-speed model.

I am also soon to embark upon a post-graduate degree - reading Automotive Engineering with Marketing – and intend to base my yr. 2 case study upon the development and design of Fiat’s 5-cylinder engine (as fitted to the Coupe and Stilo). This would be combined with a brief history of the marque along with an in-depth analysis of the (fascinating and spellbinding, as I recall) International marketing throughout the Coupe’s lifetime. In due course, therefore, I expect to be hitting every resource as hard as I can for information, information, information, but that’s for another day and would succeed, hopefully, a fruitful ownership of the actual car!

This is by no means a ‘wanted ad’ in disguise, as I feel I am a long way from understanding what’s what, or what I should spend for that matter. So, of my two motivations, my questions initially will relate, in the main, to the potential purchase. However, in due course, I may well seek assistance in the second vein and, also, hope to gain Fiat’s permission to reproduce copyrighted material and distribute (or even have published) my findings. I would, of course, keep you all aware of that, should there be the interest.

Most of my observations thus far come from flicking through the classifieds and brochures, as will become apparent! Please know that, at all times, I bow to the individual and collaborative knowledge this forum must possess and thank you all in advance for what help you can provide.

Turning to my questions:

First, an apology, for these may seem, at times, basic and/or pedantic. I am sorry if it doesn’t interest everybody… but, I am a car-obsessed geek deep inside, keen to understand this beautiful car and its variations. I also appreciate that answering some of these questions might require speculation, but maybe, just maybe, somebody very clever out there will have the answer! (Any Fiat press department or all-round Coupe connoisseurs about)?!

So here we go… a gentle introduction. (Please humour me)!

1.       Some versions of the Coupe are fitted with a Voltmeter, whereas others are fitted with an Oil Temperature Gauge in the same location. What does this difference signify? Is it merely an age-related specification change, or does it perhaps signify one version being a European import? If it is age-related, does anybody know when the change took place?
 
2.       Same question as 1, above, in relation to the ‘central locking switch’ and (what looks like) a ‘coin holder’ discrepancy?
 
3.       Where a Coupe has beige leather, some versions seem to have a black carpet, whereas others have a beige carpet. Is this an age-related specification feature, or could the original customer specify carpet colour? I ask because I don’t like the beige overall look. Would it even be worth trying to hunt out a beige leather/black carpet combination in an earlier car? Do they exist? Similarly, do all later cars have black carpet, regardless of the leather colour? The brochures are ambiguous to me.
 
4.       Comparing the 1997 brochure (covering the 5 Speed models) against the 1999 brochure (covering the 6 Speed and ‘Plus’ models) it is published that:
 
4.1   For the 20v Turbo (6 Speed) and Plus models, the body of the 1999 brochure-text states ‘0-62’ in 6.3s and 156mph, whereas the technical specification in the same brochure states ‘0-60’ (not 62) in a 6.5s and 155 mph..! Which is correct?!
 
4.1.1          Assuming the reduced times (6.3s and 156mph) are correct, were there actual mechanical changes and performance improvements in the later cars to genuinely make them faster?  I might have presumed it was due to the fitment of a 6-speed ‘box but, in my experience, 6-speed cars usually record a slower 0-62 time than their 5-speed brethren due to their closer ratios and, therefore, the need to select 3rd. The brochure (unsurprisingly) states the 5-speed gearbox gear ratios, so, again, is no help! D’oh! 
 
4.2   The 20v Turbo (6 Speed) and Plus models have a reduced turning circle of 10.9m (against 11.4m). Does this suggest a revised steering rack or suspension geometry on the later cars? If so, is there any real-world difference in handling or manoeuvrability?
 
4.3   The 20v Turbo (6 Speed) and Plus models have wider tyres (225mm against 205mm). Are the actual wheels wider on the later cars, or did Fiat merely recommend the fitment of wider rubber in later years? Does this perhaps relate to the ‘reduced turning circle’, mentioned above? Does the change coincide with the later wheel-design (with 8 spokes as opposed to 4)?
 
4.4   The 20v Turbo (6 Speed) and Plus models have larger rear brake discs of 251mm (against 240mm). Are the rear disc sizes interchangeable come service time and do the larger discs make any real-world improvement in braking / anti-fade performance? From those of you who have owned both generations, is there a significant price difference between the two sizes and do independent Fiat specialists generally acknowledge the difference or just fit a generic-sized disc?
 
5.       Does the 6-speed gearbox affect performance and/or economy in real-world scenarios? Also, does it have much bearing on motorway driving-refinement?
 
6.       Generally speaking, are parts still available from Fiat for the Coupe or has it reached that ‘classic’ stage in its lifetime where main dealer supplies are exhausted, forcing garages to use ‘OE’ replicas for some components? Similarly, are bodywork panels still available for if the worst should happen? 
 
7.       As a rule, do insurance companies still agree to repair Coupes after a bump or do they immediately write them off due to disproportionate repair cost to the cars’ market values? (This would matter more, I suppose, with a rarer ‘Plus’ or ‘LE’, which one really would want to preserve). 
 
8.       I have no information on the ‘Limited Edition’ so, apart from the obvious cosmetic differences (i.e. titanium wheels and trim and red embellishment) are the ‘Limited Edition’ and the ‘Plus’ variants identical? 
 
9.       Is there a generally agreed consensus as to ‘the’ colour-combination (or variant) to go for? Or does that spark debate?  
 
10.   I see in the accessories brochure that a wooden dash kit was available. It has part number 5909879. Does anybody know whether these are still available from anywhere (my Google search has been fruitless) or does anybody have one fitted that they perhaps don’t like and would consider selling to me? I quite like the look!
 
11.   I will be coming from a manual 330Ci. I would describe its performance as smooth, effortless and powerful. Handling feels perfectly balanced, with a bassy (but distant) exhaust note.  On paper, performance between the BMW and Fiat (20v T) would appear to be similar but does anybody has any real-world experience of how they differ?
 
12.   Can anybody vouch for any warranty company that – with regard to the Coupe 20v Turbo – is genuinely ‘worth more than the paper it’s printed on’? (!)
 
13.   Can anybody recommend any Coupe specialist service centre in/around Hertfordshire?
 
14.   Does the club ever have any meets (or are there any owners) locally to Hertfordshire?

I think that’s it!

Thanks so much to anyone who’s managed to read this far and, even more, to anybody who can help me with any of my ramblings and in deciphering the ‘reality’, otherwise disguised by Fiat’s myriad of typos and inaccuracies! (Even some photographs are of cars which, according to the technical specification ‘don’t exist’, e.g. a combination of black instrumentation dials and a satin push-button starter)!

I really look forward to reading your replies and to joining the fold! 

In reverse order, after the friendly welcome, of course...

14 - Owners, yes (holds hand up) and occasional meets but the next one will be the Italian night at 8-ball over in Essex tomorrow. http://www.8balldiner.com/bella-macchina-the-italian-car-night-1st-july/

13 - There are no specialists in Herts, but you're within a couple of hours of all of them. Have a look in the specialists section.

12 - can't comment.

11 - can't comment - except to say that for touring I prefer the 20vt, for driving for fun I prefer the 16NA - which will obviously not match the power of the BMW.

10 - Never seen the wooden dash kit. It may not have been sold over here; the big styling thing was the body-coloured strip on the dash.

9 - fight, fight, fight

8 - All versions are body-identical. Engines change between 16 and 20, turbo or NA, obviously, and there are detail changes such as 6-speed boxes and push button starts, and external trim.

7 - Depends how good you can argue. Rear end shunts are expensive, and new bonnets are no longer available, so repairs are expensive. Try not to crash.

6 - Some OE parts are still available, but many are no longer manufactured, particularly panels. Many hoses will be ten years old on the shelf, even if OEM.

5 - Slightly better economy, lower revs on cruise. The 6-speed box is sometimes not considered as robust as the 5-speed.

4 - 0-60/0-62/60mph/100kph - I wouldn't worry about it. It's quick enough... Turning circle is set by the rack; it's the same on all 20vt models (horribly large). Rear brakes do little on most vehicles due to the balance compensator working and thereby removing pressure from the circuit as the rear lifts, or not working and not allowing much of anything to happen. If you're not performance tuning, you don't need to worry about it except to make sure it works.

3 - As far as I know, beige leather came with beige carpets. Some owners have swapped seats, which might explain your observation. I've never seen a beige seat/black carpet combination, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

2 - Central locking switch is on the dash above the radio in all models. You may be mistaking a coin holder for the cabin heater sensor 'grille'. Some variants have aircon.

1 - Later models have the voltmeter; earlier have the oil temperature sensor. The change was around 1999/2000. A cynic might suggest that the voltmeter is a cheaper manufacturing option, but I don't know.

Others will have other opinions of course. There are around three thousand coupes of various flavours in the UK, and about six thousand opinions as to which is best.

They're all wrong of course, except the ones who think the 16NA is the best...

Neil

To add

4.2 – the turning circle is even larger for the 6spd car due to the bigger gearbox , pretty sure the rack is the same. There is no difference in handling.
4.3. Wheels are the same and many owners put the 205 tyres on as they are cheaper and there is more of a tyre choice. Rolling diameter is the same.
4.4. Are the disks different . They cost very little anyway so will not be an issue
10 – There was a Fiat option for a wooden veneer dash kit Never seen one and never want to. I suspect there are warehouses full of them somewhere.

We know we are right Neil

Thank you guys.

I think I was mistaken about the central locking switch. I meant to describe the switch in the same location as the electric window switches. Which sometimes appears as a grille (or what I may confuse as a coin holder).

Sorry!

Coupe garage near herts - you could try my old man

www.autovilla.co.uk

As for insurance, if you join the club you can have access to a special coupe policy with agreed value from our partners Neil Willies Insurance.

Welcome to the forum and hope you find the right car!

Mario

In response to item 3.

Interior colour variations seemed to only be available on 20vt models. Pre 2000 models came with;

Cloth - Black Carpets
Black Leather - Black carpets
Tan Leather with Matching Carpet &
LE Black & Red seats with black carpets.

There were other options but these were not officially available in the UK specification. Most of the other colour options are fitted to cars specified outside the UK (Tax Free & diplotaticfree sales) Many were RHD specified though and imported to the UK.

These were;

Grey Leather with Matching Carpet
Cream Leather with Matching Carpet
Bark Blue Leather with Matching Carpet &
Burgandy Leather with matching carpets.

All Post 2000 cars have different seats and there are many styles available (Standard, 6 speed, Plus & Airbag seats). There appears to have only ever be one colour alternative available on the standard seats, Sand Leather. I am not 100% sure but I think ALL post 2000 cars also came with black carpets only.

Bob

Thanks everyone, for so much helpful information.

The Autovilla looks like a good tip, sadly I won't be able to go to the 8 ball event in Essex tomorrow though.

For some reason I can't see the original post though, although it seems you all can? I just looked back to try and refer to a question number. Is there something wrong with my settings?

Edit: Seems to be fixed now. Thank you

With referance to 4.4.

Later specification cars were fitted with a EBD, thus doing away with the compensator. Part of this fitment was larger rear brake discs but I suspect many people have indeed failed to realise this and fitted smaller standard discs.

I believe in Point 2 you refer to the Sun-roof switch, which in non sun-roof equipped cars is replaced with the 'coin-holder'. That may not be its purpose, but it fulfils that function.

For 4.1.1, the 6-speed cars can reach about 70 in 2nd gear, so the difference in times must be due to the time spent in different ratios compared with the 5-speed rather than an extra gear change.

James

D'oh! Seems so obvious now! Can't believe I couldn't work out that the symbol was for a sunroof! Thanks for setting that straight!

As for the 6-speed box doing 70mph in second gear, that's very impressive! From what I'm gathering from the forum generally, it seems to be a true performance car, and 'not just a pretty face'!

Thanks again for the replies so far. It's been really interesting!

I never knew that my 20VT6 (originally W Reg, first used 31st March 2000 according to MOT) has a compensator, I also never realised rear discs were slightly larger and would have to wonder what benefit FIAT were after?

4.4.... Well I learnt something new today!

Me too.

How much bigger are the latter discs barmybob?

With regard to #1 This just means some drivers worry about voltage and some drivers worry about oil pressure

1999 range cars were fitted with Bosch 5.3 with EBD.

The ABS sensors were also changed to the "ACTIVE" type along with multipolar rings. This set up constantly measures wheel speed, right down to zero.

Having never worked on a car later than my 99 I have never measured them. The spec sheets refer to later models having about 1cm bigger discs.

It's oil temp Chris not pressure that is missing. Time for stonger reading glasses me thinks

ha ha ok so *we all* worry about oil pressure but some drivers worry about temp some worry about voltage.

I'm driving a Ford KA. I don't worry about either

Re: steering rack, I'm sure I read somewhere that the LE has a faster rack than a standard 20VT. The LE has a 2.2 turn, point to point, taken from the GTV. Am I right What is the point to point on the 20VT?

16v & 20v N/A = 3 turns lock to lock + 142mm rack travel

20VT (ALL Versions) 3 turns lock to lock + 128mm rack travel

Fiat tech data says the following for the LE;



Clearly they also went on to paint the fuel cap and add a limited edition badge, but the steering & engine was the same as all other 1998 model 20VTs

As for the 6 speed box. Tech data shows the following speeds per gear....

1st = 57km/h 3.800
2nd = 99km/h 2.235
3rd = 145km/h 1.520
4th = 191km/h 1.156
5th = 250km/h 0.914
6th = 248km/h 0.816
REV = 62km/h 3.545

Crown wheel & Pinion (17/54) 3.176

That table is in my Plus owner's manual with the heading 'Maximum permitted speeds after running in' or something like that. What does it mean by 'permitted'? Permitted by the rev limit, or just for engine longevity? It seems to suggest that you can't go as fast in 6th as you can in 5th... And that you can't do more than 60mph in 2nd gear. I'm sure you can, unless my speedo is hugely inaccurate.

Although I obviously can't answer this (I'm still very much a novice!) one thing I have learnt is that Fiat have poor attention to detail in their publications which, it would seem, aren't even proof-read.

I wouldn't be altogether surprised if that sloppiness extended to their owners' manuals...

I hope I can now help a little...

Auto Italia magazine - issue number 43 from December 2008 - published a brief review of the 20v Turbo LE. It included a table called 'Gear Speed Chart', which I have cropped and inserted below as an image. I hope it comes out properly, as my scanner is not very good.

Gear Speed Chart:

[IMG]http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g382/ecinrrek/FiatCoupe6-speedGearSpeedChart.jpg[/IMG]

Note their caveat, "These figures were calculated from on-board speedo and tacho readings. There may be innaccuracies".

They also wrote:

"Broadly speaking, the overall top gear ratio of a motor vehicle (including final drive and tyre size) is usually arranged so that the vehicle's top speed (determined by its power and aerodynamic drag) coincides with the rpm of the maximum power in that gear. The lower gears are then evenly spread out below. ... Top speed is quoted as 155mph; as can be seen from the chart, this virtually coincides with maximum engine power in top gear".

You (I) learn something new everyday! Hope this post has also been interesting to some of you!

To clarify 4.4, the Plus and 6-speed (8-spoke wheels) came standard with the 225 width tires. And the earlier 20VT have 205:s. However, the wheel width is the same and both tire sizes fits either variants.

Have no idea why, you'd have to ask Fiat I guess. There's one guy who works at Fiat here on the forum (Piz). He might be able to find some contacts for you at Fiat. And someone named Mark (check the Fiat Coupe Book thread in the group buy section for contact details) who has been in contact with Chris Bangle, the designer of the Coupe, who took the time to answer some questions. He still hasn't finalized the book but might have some info to share in case you have specific design related questions.