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Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread #1256920
04/09/2011 20:28
04/09/2011 20:28

M
MrT
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MrT
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I suppose a lot of people will be asking why on earth would you want to do something like this, well, I like a challenge, I like fabricating things and no one has done it before laugh

Over the next week I'll start the ball rolling by listing out what I see as the main hurdles and see what you guy's think, I've already had a good measure up and there's a lot more room at the back of the car than there is at the front!!

I have done a mid engine conversion before, I mounted an Alfa 33 engine and box in the back of a Fiat 126Bis which worked well, I'll post some pictures when I dig them out.

Let the fun begin yipee

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1256932
04/09/2011 20:55
04/09/2011 20:55
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Rudidudi Offline
My life on the forum
Rudidudi  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Oh my good god.

Well looking at how neat your work is, if you do this its gonna be good.

I'll be watching this with interest.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257017
04/09/2011 23:07
04/09/2011 23:07
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,719
My name is Daniel
Burbum123 Offline
club member 1891
Burbum123  Offline
club member 1891
I need some sleep

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,719
My name is Daniel
Have you put a time frame on this?you must have more time on your hands than a little laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257063
05/09/2011 00:26
05/09/2011 00:26

M
monty711
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monty711
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this would be something special, looking forward to following this

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Rudidudi] #1257115
05/09/2011 10:27
05/09/2011 10:27

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



Originally Posted By: Rudidudi
Oh my good god.

Well looking at how neat your work is, if you do this its gonna be good.

I'll be watching this with interest.


Thanks Ruddi, I may be tapping into that engineering brain of yours at some point laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Burbum123] #1257121
05/09/2011 10:31
05/09/2011 10:31

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



Originally Posted By: Burbum123
Have you put a time frame on this?you must have more time on your hands than a little laugh


Well, the off roader took us a year to do, so I'd expect this one to take a couple, depends on money as usual and any unexpected hurdles we come across crazy

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257124
05/09/2011 10:42
05/09/2011 10:42
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Berks
skinflint Offline
I need some sleep
skinflint  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Berks
Do you have an idea what engine & layout you will do?
I was reading a classic car mag that said the first MGF mules had a standard Metro front subframe / engine / wheels etc. mid-mounted.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: skinflint] #1257153
05/09/2011 12:47
05/09/2011 12:47

M
MrT
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MrT
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Hi skinflint

I'll be using a front subframe and hubs etc at the back as well, so the whole front layout will be transposed to the back, replacing the steering rack with tie bars and probably, although I've yet to decide, replace the struts with top wishbones.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257183
05/09/2011 14:51
05/09/2011 14:51

D
DuttonDaz
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DuttonDaz
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Why not keep the engine up front too smile
Then add the mid engine
4 wheel drive and double the power output
Just a thought !

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257208
05/09/2011 16:15
05/09/2011 16:15
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Berks
skinflint Offline
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skinflint  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Berks
Should be good to see the result.
I guess another option might be to make a Maserati 3200GT type thing using Jaguar XJ8 or XJR mechanicals. They are so cheap at the moment.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257226
05/09/2011 17:22
05/09/2011 17:22
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
Good luck, it sounds like a great project.

I echo the twin engined thoughts! I appreciate that this would be more work! Given you expect it to last a year or two anyway, you may as well leave the engine in the front and set about fiting the one in the back. Once that's in place "all" you'd have to do is link the gearboxes to the gear stick.

Nice and easy I'm sure laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Gunzi] #1257241
05/09/2011 19:02
05/09/2011 19:02

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



The twin engine thing did cross my mind but it's a lot more work and the attemps I've seen in the past never really seemed to work that well.

Apart from the uniqueness, the idea behind the mid engine conversion is to get a nicely balanced car that can put the power down without spinning the wheels too much or with an LSD fitted try and tear the steering wheel out of your hands.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257265
05/09/2011 20:27
05/09/2011 20:27

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



This is the current spec of the car, some bits I'll keep, some I won't.

• Garrett GT28RS Turbo
• Blitz dual solenoid electronic boost controller • Pro Alloy Front Mounted Intercooler, with Straight Induction Pipe
• H&S 3in Downpipe
• Miltek Stainless Steel Exhaust, Supersprint Decat.
• K&N 57i Induction Kit
• Bailey DV26 Atmospheric Dump Valve
• Uprated fuel pump
• GTEC chip
• Helix organic clutch
• KW V2 suspension

Ok, here's the rough outline of how I think this will work:-

Front End
Engine obviously out
Front cross member welded and braced
Current KW coilovers kept
Hopefully, power steering removed as the front will be much lighter
Radiator kept with ally pipes to the rear
Intercooler kept at the front, Thoughts on this? maybe too much lag or could this be reduced with the blitz?
Battery back in the front (Currently in the boot)
Fuel tank in the front

Inside
Welded in cage (Probably home made)
All interior trim out
Bulkhead behind seats (similar to Clio V6 etc)

Rear End
Boot floor and rear seat well removed and strengthened in conjuntion with the rollcage

Space frame type setup incorporating additional front cross member to support complete drive train and suspension with the struts replaced by top adjustable unequal length wishbones, this whole frame would then bolt to new fabricated pick up points on the shell again picking up on the cage as well as the shell.

Brakes
Obviously with a front end going into the back, the rear brakes will now be the same size as the fronts, not sure whether to keep the ABS or use a balance bar, I think probably the latter.

First obstacle here, what to do about a hand brake, as it will be a track only car, I expect I'll just have a hydraulic one

The other issue will be the gear selector, but as it's cable operation I should be able to have longer cables made and worst case the H pattern would just have to be backwards!!

So, that's basically it, hopefully should get get started in a couple of weeks.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257302
05/09/2011 21:47
05/09/2011 21:47

J
jonone
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jonone
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J



Intercooler kept at the front, Thoughts on this? maybe too much lag or could this be reduced with the blitz?

how about vents in the rear arches or vents in the rear quarter windows made from plexi-glass to supply rads/oil coolers/intercoolers?

boost controlers will not reduce the lag from long lengths of pipework.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257320
05/09/2011 22:18
05/09/2011 22:18

S
shinyshoes
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shinyshoes
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I would have thought the biggest issue will be keeping the engine cool, unless you are planning on side vents etc, its not going to be that easy.

Re routing the radiator hoses to complete a circa 8-10ft loop wont help matters much I doubt.

Intercooler pipework would have to be on the same scale if you leave that at the front = massive turbo lag.

If you are going to the full extent of a mid engined Coupe, why not put a different engine in?

Surely an NA lump of some variety is always going to be far less hassle than a turbo charged variant.

All that said, should make a nice project, you will need to do some serious structural improvements to the rear of the car to support an engine, and indeed rear wheel drive though, as we all know the Coupe is as flimsy and wobbly as a bowl full of jelly at the best of times.

Might be easier to buy something like a TVR, with a tubular chassis, take the body off, and then retro fit a Coupe body over the top of the new chassis (removing Coupe floor etc)

Who knows.

coffee

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257357
06/09/2011 00:24
06/09/2011 00:24

I
InfectusGuy
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InfectusGuy
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Cracking idea, i was going to do the same with a coupe engine in one of my Lancia Deltas for hillclimbing..........until i read the MSA regulations. It'd put me up in Sports Libre class with all the crazy spaceframe stuff so coming last all the time would get a bit boring!

To cool the charged air you might be best off going for a air/water chargecooler. An engine rad up front should be ok, all the plumbing will help keep things cool. Check the waterpump will be up to it, bit of MR2 research should tell you. That said you probably know from your alfa/fiat project anyway.

Good luck, great idea getting the power through the correct wheels!
Guy

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257417
06/09/2011 10:09
06/09/2011 10:09

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: jonone
Intercooler kept at the front, Thoughts on this? maybe too much lag or could this be reduced with the blitz?

how about vents in the rear arches or vents in the rear quarter windows made from plexi-glass to supply rads/oil coolers/intercoolers?

boost controlers will not reduce the lag from long lengths of pipework.


Hi Jonone

I did think about having the intercooler at the back and then running a couple of pipes through the car, picking up cold air from the front and blowing straight onto the cooler and maybe even an additional fan.

The reason I thought the blitz could help the lag is because the 28RS spools up pretty quickly I could set the blitz to allow a fast spool up and tthen reduce back to the required boost??

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257426
06/09/2011 10:40
06/09/2011 10:40

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: shinyshoes
I would have thought the biggest issue will be keeping the engine cool, unless you are planning on side vents etc, its not going to be that easy.

Re routing the radiator hoses to complete a circa 8-10ft loop wont help matters much I doubt.

Intercooler pipework would have to be on the same scale if you leave that at the front = massive turbo lag.

If you are going to the full extent of a mid engined Coupe, why not put a different engine in?

Surely an NA lump of some variety is always going to be far less hassle than a turbo charged variant.

All that said, should make a nice project, you will need to do some serious structural improvements to the rear of the car to support an engine, and indeed rear wheel drive though, as we all know the Coupe is as flimsy and wobbly as a bowl full of jelly at the best of times.

Might be easier to buy something like a TVR, with a tubular chassis, take the body off, and then retro fit a Coupe body over the top of the new chassis (removing Coupe floor etc)

Who knows.

coffee


click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge

Hi Shinyshoes, the cooling should be fine, if you look at the pics of the off roader I built, I put the rad at the back to stop it getting full of mud and the cooling was excellent as a lot of the heat was dissipated through the pipes on the way to the rad. It's the intercooler I think will be a problem at the front.

I did toy with the idea of using a 2.4 NA from a Stilo (with selespeed!!!)but I wouldn't get the power, once I've finished the main project, I'd like to save up for forged internals etc and get some serious power laugh

The whole shell needs strengthening, if I park on uneven ground I can't open the door without it jambing a bit shocked

It's amazing how much a welded in cage strengthens a shell and you don't need too many more bracing bars to make it very ridgid.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257428
06/09/2011 10:46
06/09/2011 10:46

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: InfectusGuy
Cracking idea, i was going to do the same with a coupe engine in one of my Lancia Deltas for hillclimbing..........until i read the MSA regulations. It'd put me up in Sports Libre class with all the crazy spaceframe stuff so coming last all the time would get a bit boring!

To cool the charged air you might be best off going for a air/water chargecooler. An engine rad up front should be ok, all the plumbing will help keep things cool. Check the waterpump will be up to it, bit of MR2 research should tell you. That said you probably know from your alfa/fiat project anyway.

Good luck, great idea getting the power through the correct wheels!
Guy


Guy, as per my reply to Shinyshoes regarding the cooling, good idea about an air/water cooler though, I'll look into this and yes I am looking forward to the rear wheels doing some work thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257502
06/09/2011 14:32
06/09/2011 14:32

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



I think something like this should do the trick laugh

Water/Air Charge Cooler

Interesting site.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257532
06/09/2011 16:04
06/09/2011 16:04

S
shinyshoes
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted By: MrT
I did toy with the idea of using a 2.4 NA from a Stilo (with selespeed!!!)but I wouldn't get the power, once I've finished the main project, I'd like to save up for forged internals etc and get some serious power laugh


Maybe a 4.0 Rover V8 with open headers...

love

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257740
06/09/2011 23:45
06/09/2011 23:45

P
Paul_Murf
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Paul_Murf
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P



I had an air/water chargecooler on my mk1 mr2 turbo. It was very effective at keeping the inlet air temp down. I also had a water/methanol injection kit to help prevent knock.
I had a stock 3SGTE and it was mapped to over 300bhp at the flywheel. I also cut a vent into the engine lid above the turbo to let hot air escape. The mk1 MR2's design meant that airflow from under the car was scooped up, then through the engine bay and brought over the rear boot and out the back, this also helped keep the engine bay cool.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257897
07/09/2011 14:04
07/09/2011 14:04

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: shinyshoes
Originally Posted By: MrT
I did toy with the idea of using a 2.4 NA from a Stilo (with selespeed!!!)but I wouldn't get the power, once I've finished the main project, I'd like to save up for forged internals etc and get some serious power laugh


Maybe a 4.0 Rover V8 with open headers...

love


shocked I couldn't put a non Italian engine in, I did also think of an Alfa V6 but again, I wouldn't get the power, the sound could possibly make up for that though laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257900
07/09/2011 14:11
07/09/2011 14:11

J
jonone
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jonone
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J



or twin charge the above!

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257901
07/09/2011 14:11
07/09/2011 14:11

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: Paul_Murf
I had an air/water chargecooler on my mk1 mr2 turbo. It was very effective at keeping the inlet air temp down. I also had a water/methanol injection kit to help prevent knock.
I had a stock 3SGTE and it was mapped to over 300bhp at the flywheel. I also cut a vent into the engine lid above the turbo to let hot air escape. The mk1 MR2's design meant that airflow from under the car was scooped up, then through the engine bay and brought over the rear boot and out the back, this also helped keep the engine bay cool.


Thanks for the info Paul, I think the air/water cooler is definitely the way to go, now I've studied them a bit more, I don't know why more people don't use them.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257942
07/09/2011 16:59
07/09/2011 16:59

S
shinyshoes
Unregistered
shinyshoes
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted By: MrT
shocked I couldn't put a non Italian engine in, I did also think of an Alfa V6 but again, I wouldn't get the power, the sound could possibly make up for that though laugh


You say that, but the 3.0 V6 has around 250bhp doesnt it?

And, in VERY small numbers there are turbo charged GTV V6's.

Maybe go for a twin turbo V6...

Maybe a Coupe turbo unit either side, custom map, custom pipe work, mmmmmm love

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257948
07/09/2011 17:50
07/09/2011 17:50

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: shinyshoes
Originally Posted By: MrT
shocked I couldn't put a non Italian engine in, I did also think of an Alfa V6 but again, I wouldn't get the power, the sound could possibly make up for that though laugh


You say that, but the 3.0 V6 has around 250bhp doesnt it?

And, in VERY small numbers there are turbo charged GTV V6's.

Maybe go for a twin turbo V6...

Maybe a Coupe turbo unit either side, custom map, custom pipe work, mmmmmm love


Shineyshoes, I hate you laugh you're starting to make sense, it would do away with all the turbo issues and I do love that sound laugh although if I was going to go the V6 turbo route, I may just as well stay with the Fiat lump and the standard 3.0 V6 is 220bhp and I think the 3.2 is 240 odd and I've got 315 - 340 now chinny food for thought though.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257955
07/09/2011 18:09
07/09/2011 18:09

S
shinyshoes
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted By: MrT
Shineyshoes, I hate you laugh you're starting to make sense, it would do away with all the turbo issues and I do love that sound laugh although if I was going to go the V6 turbo route, I may just as well stay with the Fiat lump and the standard 3.0 V6 is 220bhp and I think the 3.2 is 240 odd and I've got 315 - 340 now chinny food for thought though.


laugh

Or maybe... supercharge the V6... lick

Imagine the noise!! Short exhausts being so close to the rear, an Alfa V6 at high rpm is heavenly anyway!

If you are planning on stripping the car and losing alot of weight, you will in theory gain performance even with a lower BHP figure.

Decisions decisions... wink

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1260558
15/09/2011 17:33
15/09/2011 17:33

C
cheech
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cheech
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C



check out autodelta they do the 3.7 gta engine bore and supercharger. at 12k+ a lot of money though without the gta engine cost.

imagine that noise! with 400bhp should be enough power.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1260971
16/09/2011 20:35
16/09/2011 20:35

M
MrT
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MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: cheech
check out autodelta they do the 3.7 gta engine bore and supercharger. at 12k+ a lot of money though without the gta engine cost.

imagine that noise! with 400bhp should be enough power.


12K shocked the idea of this build is to be as self financing as possible by selling the parts of the car I don't need, that obviously won't cover the entire build but will help a lot.

I agree that it would sound pretty damn good though laugh

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