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Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project [Re: ] #1317583
18/02/2012 19:20
18/02/2012 19:20

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kbs133
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Good progress. Should be interesting to see how this progresses.

Kev

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1318091
20/02/2012 16:30
20/02/2012 16:30
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Ferrarist Offline
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Happy that project is not frozen, really wait to see how engine will fit.....
Keep us updated......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1325089
14/03/2012 20:23
14/03/2012 20:23
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Looking good MrT thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1325118
14/03/2012 22:00
14/03/2012 22:00
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magooagain Offline
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Yes it looks well Mr T.
How do you think the front and rear suspension will work out ?
I imagine you will put a front sub-frame on the front also ?
With the rear having a front sub-frame. Will you be making some kind of top mounts at the rear ?



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: magooagain] #1325129
14/03/2012 22:54
14/03/2012 22:54

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Originally Posted By: magooagain
Yes it looks well Mr T.
How do you think the front and rear suspension will work out ?
I imagine you will put a front sub-frame on the front also ?
With the rear having a front sub-frame. Will you be making some kind of top mounts at the rear ?


Thanks guys, a long way to go yet though crazy

As for the suspension, I'll be using the standard front subframe and my original KW coil overs at the front (no power steering though!) and the rear I'm going to go for a top wishbone (Unequal length) and probably inboard coilover as I want the whole subframe, engine, gearbox and suspension to be easily removable in one package so to speak.

That's the theory anyway laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1326810
20/03/2012 17:11
20/03/2012 17:11
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Can you please keep save any measurements do you take during this project, i forgot my dreams to create RWD Punto cause it seems that it's chassis is really too weak for that "twist", and huge strengthen required.

Originally Posted By: MrT
as I want the whole subframe, engine, gearbox and suspension to be easily removable in one package so to speak.

Very good idea IMO if you're sure that this combo had really good and strong mount to the chassis, otherwise you risk too much.
Keep us updated, pictures really welcomed....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1328721
25/03/2012 20:16
25/03/2012 20:16

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MrT
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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Can you please keep save any measurements do you take during this project, i forgot my dreams to create RWD Punto cause it seems that it's chassis is really too weak for that "twist", and huge strengthen required.

Originally Posted By: MrT
as I want the whole subframe, engine, gearbox and suspension to be easily removable in one package so to speak.

Very good idea IMO if you're sure that this combo had really good and strong mount to the chassis, otherwise you risk too much.
Keep us updated, pictures really welcomed....



Hello again Ferrarist

I will take all the measurments as I go along and let you know.

The subframe will have six mounting points where I've shown in the picture below and the mounting to the rollcage will also link to the side panel where the small arrow is and that panel will be strengthened.

click to enlarge

I did convert a Fiat 126 a few years ago with a mid mounted Alfa 33 engine in (I'll try and find some pictures of that) and that was rock solid.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1329060
26/03/2012 18:36
26/03/2012 18:36
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Originally Posted By: MrT

The subframe will have six mounting points where I've shown in the picture below and the mounting to the rollcage will also link to the side panel where the small arrow is and that panel will be strengthened.

Well it seems stiff and solid to me - did you expect any extra chassis twist cause the rear end obviously is not constructed to take engine weight and it's forces....???


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1329087
26/03/2012 20:17
26/03/2012 20:17

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MrT
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I'm not too concerned about any twist in the chassis, the picture below shows what additional bracing I'll have which will tie the subframe into shell quite well and being a transverse engine and box most of the torque will be transmitted front to rear rather than side to side.

There will of course still be the cornering forces being transmitted through the subframe and into the shell, but I'm confident it will have less flex than the front drive set up laugh

click to enlarge

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1329099
26/03/2012 20:56
26/03/2012 20:56
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Great drawings, thanks......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343585
16/05/2012 08:14
16/05/2012 08:14
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Originally Posted By: MrT

So, pretty chuffed with how it's going, I'll start making up the basic parts of the subframe next and then I need to finally decide on weather to use the original struts (KW Coilovers) or to do what I originaly wanted to do and make an upper wishbone to keep the suspension nice and low and also give me negative bump camber at the rear.

Any thoughts or experiences with either suspension setup would be most appreciated thumb

You did a great job, week ago i started with moving my 2.5V6 engine rearwards, difference with me is that i cut entire front frame from later Alfa 155, and with suspension only on it, will be fitted and cage welded at the rear.
IMO there is no need for upper wishbone setup like Alfa 156 for rear suspension - first is too heavy, and is pointless if the rear tires did not steer......that's why i opted for Alfa 155 frame - bit longer wheelbase, and simple wishbone setup. And it will be easy for me to make the rear camber adjustable.


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343591
16/05/2012 09:22
16/05/2012 09:22
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MrT, looking very good now laugh I'm not sure mounting the rollcage onto the tyre is a good idea though tongue

Once you've done this, fancy doing a 16vt conversion? You know the engine is lighter so you wouldn't have to struggle as much rofl

But seriously, if you ever need an extra pair of hands, feel free to give me a shout smile


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343594
16/05/2012 09:39
16/05/2012 09:39

M
Marco20ValveT
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MrT..

well done mate, your nearly there laugh

regardign the rear suspension...

why not try trhe Alfa 156 rear suspension + Subframe.

you can adjust the camber and use double wishbone suspension?

if you want photos ect drop me a pm smile

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1343599
16/05/2012 10:03
16/05/2012 10:03

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MrT
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M



Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Originally Posted By: MrT

So, pretty chuffed with how it's going, I'll start making up the basic parts of the subframe next and then I need to finally decide on weather to use the original struts (KW Coilovers) or to do what I originaly wanted to do and make an upper wishbone to keep the suspension nice and low and also give me negative bump camber at the rear.

Any thoughts or experiences with either suspension setup would be most appreciated thumb

You did a great job, week ago i started with moving my 2.5V6 engine rearwards, difference with me is that i cut entire front frame from later Alfa 155, and with suspension only on it, will be fitted and cage welded at the rear.
IMO there is no need for upper wishbone setup like Alfa 156 for rear suspension - first is too heavy, and is pointless if the rear tires did not steer......that's why i opted for Alfa 155 frame - bit longer wheelbase, and simple wishbone setup. And it will be easy for me to make the rear camber adjustable.


That sounds like you've got a fair amout of work to do as well Ferrarist!! I'll have a look at the 155 stuff, the reason I was thinking about a top wishbone rather than a strut was if I use unequal length wishbones with the shorter one at the top it will increase the negative camber as the load increases which will help the grip and also help the tyre clear the wing as it moves up as it's a bit tight there laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1343601
16/05/2012 10:11
16/05/2012 10:11

M
MrT
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Originally Posted By: Begbie
MrT, looking very good now laugh I'm not sure mounting the rollcage onto the tyre is a good idea though tongue

Once you've done this, fancy doing a 16vt conversion? You know the engine is lighter so you wouldn't have to struggle as much rofl

But seriously, if you ever need an extra pair of hands, feel free to give me a shout smile


Thanks for the offer young sir, most appreciated. It's going to have to come out a few times so I could do with a hand, actually I could do with a complete new back hehe

I can't see a problem with mounting the cage on the tyre, it's at the top and it's only the bottom of the tyre that gets used isn't it? laugh

16VT conversion, seeing your car accelerate at Brooklands, I don't think you need any more traction do you wink Very impressive.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343603
16/05/2012 10:16
16/05/2012 10:16

M
MrT
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MrT
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Originally Posted By: Marco20ValveT
MrT..

well done mate, your nearly there laugh

regardign the rear suspension...

why not try trhe Alfa 156 rear suspension + Subframe.

you can adjust the camber and use double wishbone suspension?

if you want photos ect drop me a pm smile


Thanks Marco, not sure about being nearly there though, I'm going to try and get it on it's wheels for Brooklands next year, so a fair bit to do before then frown Those 156 pictures would be usefull though cool

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343616
16/05/2012 11:09
16/05/2012 11:09
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Very impressive MrT, the project is coming along nicely thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343617
16/05/2012 11:19
16/05/2012 11:19

M
Marco20ValveT
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Marco20ValveT
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im on it guys..

need to get a compelte subframe off with the shocks / hubs attached and go from there!!

i was also thinking..

how about a GTV rear sub frame?

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343764
16/05/2012 17:35
16/05/2012 17:35
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Originally Posted By: MrT

That sounds like you've got a fair amout of work to do as well Ferrarist!! I'll have a look at the 155 stuff, the reason I was thinking about a top wishbone rather than a strut was if I use unequal length wishbones with the shorter one at the top it will increase the negative camber as the load increases which will help the grip and also help the tyre clear the wing as it moves up as it's a bit tight there laugh

Well the hard part will be locating and centering the 155's frame to the chassis......i want to cut from it as little as possible......Today i complete 70% of the "cutting" work, tomorrow will try to find a way to find out what is the correct position for the 155's frame and under-subframe attached to it.....measuring the right distance from the ground will be the first challenge.
I had used 156's upper wishbones cutted and welded to achieve extra camber on my Alfa, but as i said, for my application and use of this car, 156's front suspension setup weights too much......and when on track i need constant camber on the rear end.
You must have in mind that if you use 156's fronts double wishbone setup, rear end of the car is always little higher than front, and you'll get camber only when the load is on(in the middle of the corner mostly), and when on brakes rear end will go lighter and upwards - camber will change in a opposite direction. Entire rear setup will be very tricky......
But it's all up to you - that's just my point of view......
Hope you don't mind posting few pictures of my process here......
click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge
click to enlarge click to enlarge


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1343825
16/05/2012 20:52
16/05/2012 20:52

M
MrT
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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Originally Posted By: MrT

That sounds like you've got a fair amout of work to do as well Ferrarist!! I'll have a look at the 155 stuff, the reason I was thinking about a top wishbone rather than a strut was if I use unequal length wishbones with the shorter one at the top it will increase the negative camber as the load increases which will help the grip and also help the tyre clear the wing as it moves up as it's a bit tight there laugh

Well the hard part will be locating and centering the 155's frame to the chassis......i want to cut from it as little as possible......Today i complete 70% of the "cutting" work, tomorrow will try to find a way to find out what is the correct position for the 155's frame and under-subframe attached to it.....measuring the right distance from the ground will be the first challenge.
I had used 156's upper wishbones cutted and welded to achieve extra camber on my Alfa, but as i said, for my application and use of this car, 156's front suspension setup weights too much......and when on track i need constant camber on the rear end.
You must have in mind that if you use 156's fronts double wishbone setup, rear end of the car is always little higher than front, and you'll get camber only when the load is on(in the middle of the corner mostly), and when on brakes rear end will go lighter and upwards - camber will change in a opposite direction. Entire rear setup will be very tricky......
But it's all up to you - that's just my point of view......
Hope you don't mind posting few pictures of my process here......


No problem at all Ferrarist, looking at all the additional work involved changing to double wishbone, I'm now not sure it's worth it.

I've taken a few more measurments today and using the original coilovers at the back will be a lot better if I take the helper springs out, that way the top of the damper mount is low enough to keep it well out of sight.

Good luck with your project buy the way, it's looking good so far.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343930
17/05/2012 09:19
17/05/2012 09:19
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RE: The boxing in. Would it be worth doing some sort of quick release / bonnet pin system, just in case you need to work on something without having the ball ache of having to unbolt panels to gain access?


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1343953
17/05/2012 10:28
17/05/2012 10:28

M
MrT
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Originally Posted By: Begbie
RE: The boxing in. Would it be worth doing some sort of quick release / bonnet pin system, just in case you need to work on something without having the ball ache of having to unbolt panels to gain access?


Yes, good point that. I was going to have the rear screen removable (Perspex) and perhaps all the other paneling held in with Dzus fasteners so they're easy to remove, that's another reason why I wanted to keep the suspension low so I can unbolt and remove the whole subframe and engine etc and wheel it out from under the car for major works.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1357599
06/07/2012 13:53
06/07/2012 13:53
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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If you have to change CHOD i imagine it will be alot easier than the front engined coupes.

Whats your plan about the front of the coupe ? Will you test drive it before you decide ?
I imagine it will be a bit light up front.

Will you fabricate some sort of boot floor for the front ?

Last edited by magooagain; 06/07/2012 13:54.


Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: magooagain] #1357690
06/07/2012 20:23
06/07/2012 20:23

M
MrT
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Originally Posted By: magooagain
If you have to change CHOD i imagine it will be alot easier than the front engined coupes.

Whats your plan about the front of the coupe ? Will you test drive it before you decide ?
I imagine it will be a bit light up front.

Will you fabricate some sort of boot floor for the front ?


It certainly will be easier to change the CHOD, I can now get in the engine bay with the engine laugh

I'm going to start with a standard setup at the front, just with shorter springs until I know what ride height I want. As the front will be so much lighter I think the standard spring and anti-roll bar rates will be pretty close to what I want.

The front bay will now house the battery, fuel tanks and coolant radiator and of course all the ducting for the intercooler feed to the back and to the radiator at the front, I'm going to sit the coolant radiator above the intercooler duct at an angle so it fits and then duct air from the upper part of the grille through vents in the bonnet, I'll also have vents in the boot lid to expel the air blowing through the intercooler.

I will have the bottom of the bay panelled out to help with air flow. I'll try and do a picture of the front to make it clearer, I'm hoping that the air being ducted through the rad and out of the bonnet will give me a little bit of downforce at the front aswell.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1357720
06/07/2012 21:51
06/07/2012 21:51
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Well, it seems i'm few steps in front of you.... wink
Don't worry that front will be too light, you may see where is the weight center on my 156's with engine fitted......
Cage is not finished yet, few welds must be done....i know that it looks very rough, but it will be trackdays car only, not for "best cage" competition events, and i don't care how it will look like as long as it stays strong.....
click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge

Last edited by Ferrarist; 06/07/2012 21:56.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1357780
07/07/2012 01:21
07/07/2012 01:21
Joined: Oct 2008
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Strangly i think you will get better air flow for your intercooler than standard ! at least !

Very interested and well done.



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: magooagain] #1357830
07/07/2012 10:47
07/07/2012 10:47

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MrT
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Originally Posted By: magooagain
Strangly i think you will get better air flow for your intercooler than standard ! at least !



That's what I'm hoping, buy sealing the face of the intercooler against the the air ducting, the air won't have any choice but to go through the cooler and the intake at the front will be larger than the face area of the cooler so I'll get a bit of ram as well.

I also believe that if you angle the cooler slightly against the air flow the flow is slightly restricted through the cooler giving better heat transfer. It's also important to make sure the air can get out of the engine bay once it's gone through the cooler, if it can't, the flow will be a lot less than it could be.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1357834
07/07/2012 11:10
07/07/2012 11:10

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MrT
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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Well, it seems i'm few steps in front of you.... wink
Don't worry that front will be too light, you may see where is the weight center on my 156's with engine fitted......
Cage is not finished yet, few welds must be done....i know that it looks very rough, but it will be trackdays car only, not for "best cage" competition events, and i don't care how it will look like as long as it stays strong.....


That's moving on quite quickly there Ferrarist, don't try and do it too quickly though, make sure those welds are going to hold if you end up on your roof at 100mph shocked Looking good so far though thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1358033
08/07/2012 07:57
08/07/2012 07:57
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Originally Posted By: MrT

That's moving on quite quickly there Ferrarist, don't try and do it too quickly though, make sure those welds are going to hold if you end up on your roof at 100mph shocked

Welds not finished yet, guess you mention the X frame - just need to have it on to see how it will looks like.
Fitting engine was easy, hardest part now in front of me....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1384925
14/10/2012 15:26
14/10/2012 15:26
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If you need kind of push - here it is - Alfa Romeo 156 2.5V6 RWD First Track Test


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

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