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Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread #1256920
04/09/2011 20:28
04/09/2011 20:28

M
MrT
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MrT
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I suppose a lot of people will be asking why on earth would you want to do something like this, well, I like a challenge, I like fabricating things and no one has done it before laugh

Over the next week I'll start the ball rolling by listing out what I see as the main hurdles and see what you guy's think, I've already had a good measure up and there's a lot more room at the back of the car than there is at the front!!

I have done a mid engine conversion before, I mounted an Alfa 33 engine and box in the back of a Fiat 126Bis which worked well, I'll post some pictures when I dig them out.

Let the fun begin yipee

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1256932
04/09/2011 20:55
04/09/2011 20:55
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Rudidudi Offline
My life on the forum
Rudidudi  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Oh my good god.

Well looking at how neat your work is, if you do this its gonna be good.

I'll be watching this with interest.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257017
04/09/2011 23:07
04/09/2011 23:07
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,719
My name is Daniel
Burbum123 Offline
club member 1891
Burbum123  Offline
club member 1891
I need some sleep

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Posts: 2,719
My name is Daniel
Have you put a time frame on this?you must have more time on your hands than a little laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257063
05/09/2011 00:26
05/09/2011 00:26

M
monty711
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monty711
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this would be something special, looking forward to following this

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Rudidudi] #1257115
05/09/2011 10:27
05/09/2011 10:27

M
MrT
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MrT
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Originally Posted By: Rudidudi
Oh my good god.

Well looking at how neat your work is, if you do this its gonna be good.

I'll be watching this with interest.


Thanks Ruddi, I may be tapping into that engineering brain of yours at some point laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Burbum123] #1257121
05/09/2011 10:31
05/09/2011 10:31

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



Originally Posted By: Burbum123
Have you put a time frame on this?you must have more time on your hands than a little laugh


Well, the off roader took us a year to do, so I'd expect this one to take a couple, depends on money as usual and any unexpected hurdles we come across crazy

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257124
05/09/2011 10:42
05/09/2011 10:42
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Berks
skinflint Offline
I need some sleep
skinflint  Offline
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Posts: 3,285
West Berks
Do you have an idea what engine & layout you will do?
I was reading a classic car mag that said the first MGF mules had a standard Metro front subframe / engine / wheels etc. mid-mounted.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: skinflint] #1257153
05/09/2011 12:47
05/09/2011 12:47

M
MrT
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MrT
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Hi skinflint

I'll be using a front subframe and hubs etc at the back as well, so the whole front layout will be transposed to the back, replacing the steering rack with tie bars and probably, although I've yet to decide, replace the struts with top wishbones.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257183
05/09/2011 14:51
05/09/2011 14:51

D
DuttonDaz
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DuttonDaz
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Why not keep the engine up front too smile
Then add the mid engine
4 wheel drive and double the power output
Just a thought !

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257208
05/09/2011 16:15
05/09/2011 16:15
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Berks
skinflint Offline
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Posts: 3,285
West Berks
Should be good to see the result.
I guess another option might be to make a Maserati 3200GT type thing using Jaguar XJ8 or XJR mechanicals. They are so cheap at the moment.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257226
05/09/2011 17:22
05/09/2011 17:22
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
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Posts: 8,057
Southsea
Good luck, it sounds like a great project.

I echo the twin engined thoughts! I appreciate that this would be more work! Given you expect it to last a year or two anyway, you may as well leave the engine in the front and set about fiting the one in the back. Once that's in place "all" you'd have to do is link the gearboxes to the gear stick.

Nice and easy I'm sure laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Gunzi] #1257241
05/09/2011 19:02
05/09/2011 19:02

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



The twin engine thing did cross my mind but it's a lot more work and the attemps I've seen in the past never really seemed to work that well.

Apart from the uniqueness, the idea behind the mid engine conversion is to get a nicely balanced car that can put the power down without spinning the wheels too much or with an LSD fitted try and tear the steering wheel out of your hands.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257265
05/09/2011 20:27
05/09/2011 20:27

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



This is the current spec of the car, some bits I'll keep, some I won't.

• Garrett GT28RS Turbo
• Blitz dual solenoid electronic boost controller • Pro Alloy Front Mounted Intercooler, with Straight Induction Pipe
• H&S 3in Downpipe
• Miltek Stainless Steel Exhaust, Supersprint Decat.
• K&N 57i Induction Kit
• Bailey DV26 Atmospheric Dump Valve
• Uprated fuel pump
• GTEC chip
• Helix organic clutch
• KW V2 suspension

Ok, here's the rough outline of how I think this will work:-

Front End
Engine obviously out
Front cross member welded and braced
Current KW coilovers kept
Hopefully, power steering removed as the front will be much lighter
Radiator kept with ally pipes to the rear
Intercooler kept at the front, Thoughts on this? maybe too much lag or could this be reduced with the blitz?
Battery back in the front (Currently in the boot)
Fuel tank in the front

Inside
Welded in cage (Probably home made)
All interior trim out
Bulkhead behind seats (similar to Clio V6 etc)

Rear End
Boot floor and rear seat well removed and strengthened in conjuntion with the rollcage

Space frame type setup incorporating additional front cross member to support complete drive train and suspension with the struts replaced by top adjustable unequal length wishbones, this whole frame would then bolt to new fabricated pick up points on the shell again picking up on the cage as well as the shell.

Brakes
Obviously with a front end going into the back, the rear brakes will now be the same size as the fronts, not sure whether to keep the ABS or use a balance bar, I think probably the latter.

First obstacle here, what to do about a hand brake, as it will be a track only car, I expect I'll just have a hydraulic one

The other issue will be the gear selector, but as it's cable operation I should be able to have longer cables made and worst case the H pattern would just have to be backwards!!

So, that's basically it, hopefully should get get started in a couple of weeks.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257302
05/09/2011 21:47
05/09/2011 21:47

J
jonone
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jonone
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J



Intercooler kept at the front, Thoughts on this? maybe too much lag or could this be reduced with the blitz?

how about vents in the rear arches or vents in the rear quarter windows made from plexi-glass to supply rads/oil coolers/intercoolers?

boost controlers will not reduce the lag from long lengths of pipework.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257320
05/09/2011 22:18
05/09/2011 22:18

S
shinyshoes
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shinyshoes
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I would have thought the biggest issue will be keeping the engine cool, unless you are planning on side vents etc, its not going to be that easy.

Re routing the radiator hoses to complete a circa 8-10ft loop wont help matters much I doubt.

Intercooler pipework would have to be on the same scale if you leave that at the front = massive turbo lag.

If you are going to the full extent of a mid engined Coupe, why not put a different engine in?

Surely an NA lump of some variety is always going to be far less hassle than a turbo charged variant.

All that said, should make a nice project, you will need to do some serious structural improvements to the rear of the car to support an engine, and indeed rear wheel drive though, as we all know the Coupe is as flimsy and wobbly as a bowl full of jelly at the best of times.

Might be easier to buy something like a TVR, with a tubular chassis, take the body off, and then retro fit a Coupe body over the top of the new chassis (removing Coupe floor etc)

Who knows.

coffee

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257357
06/09/2011 00:24
06/09/2011 00:24
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 102
Torquay
I
InfectusGuy Offline
On a journey
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 102
Torquay
Cracking idea, i was going to do the same with a coupe engine in one of my Lancia Deltas for hillclimbing..........until i read the MSA regulations. It'd put me up in Sports Libre class with all the crazy spaceframe stuff so coming last all the time would get a bit boring!

To cool the charged air you might be best off going for a air/water chargecooler. An engine rad up front should be ok, all the plumbing will help keep things cool. Check the waterpump will be up to it, bit of MR2 research should tell you. That said you probably know from your alfa/fiat project anyway.

Good luck, great idea getting the power through the correct wheels!
Guy

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257417
06/09/2011 10:09
06/09/2011 10:09

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



Originally Posted By: jonone
Intercooler kept at the front, Thoughts on this? maybe too much lag or could this be reduced with the blitz?

how about vents in the rear arches or vents in the rear quarter windows made from plexi-glass to supply rads/oil coolers/intercoolers?

boost controlers will not reduce the lag from long lengths of pipework.


Hi Jonone

I did think about having the intercooler at the back and then running a couple of pipes through the car, picking up cold air from the front and blowing straight onto the cooler and maybe even an additional fan.

The reason I thought the blitz could help the lag is because the 28RS spools up pretty quickly I could set the blitz to allow a fast spool up and tthen reduce back to the required boost??

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257426
06/09/2011 10:40
06/09/2011 10:40

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
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M



Originally Posted By: shinyshoes
I would have thought the biggest issue will be keeping the engine cool, unless you are planning on side vents etc, its not going to be that easy.

Re routing the radiator hoses to complete a circa 8-10ft loop wont help matters much I doubt.

Intercooler pipework would have to be on the same scale if you leave that at the front = massive turbo lag.

If you are going to the full extent of a mid engined Coupe, why not put a different engine in?

Surely an NA lump of some variety is always going to be far less hassle than a turbo charged variant.

All that said, should make a nice project, you will need to do some serious structural improvements to the rear of the car to support an engine, and indeed rear wheel drive though, as we all know the Coupe is as flimsy and wobbly as a bowl full of jelly at the best of times.

Might be easier to buy something like a TVR, with a tubular chassis, take the body off, and then retro fit a Coupe body over the top of the new chassis (removing Coupe floor etc)

Who knows.

coffee


click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge

Hi Shinyshoes, the cooling should be fine, if you look at the pics of the off roader I built, I put the rad at the back to stop it getting full of mud and the cooling was excellent as a lot of the heat was dissipated through the pipes on the way to the rad. It's the intercooler I think will be a problem at the front.

I did toy with the idea of using a 2.4 NA from a Stilo (with selespeed!!!)but I wouldn't get the power, once I've finished the main project, I'd like to save up for forged internals etc and get some serious power laugh

The whole shell needs strengthening, if I park on uneven ground I can't open the door without it jambing a bit shocked

It's amazing how much a welded in cage strengthens a shell and you don't need too many more bracing bars to make it very ridgid.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: InfectusGuy] #1257428
06/09/2011 10:46
06/09/2011 10:46

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: InfectusGuy
Cracking idea, i was going to do the same with a coupe engine in one of my Lancia Deltas for hillclimbing..........until i read the MSA regulations. It'd put me up in Sports Libre class with all the crazy spaceframe stuff so coming last all the time would get a bit boring!

To cool the charged air you might be best off going for a air/water chargecooler. An engine rad up front should be ok, all the plumbing will help keep things cool. Check the waterpump will be up to it, bit of MR2 research should tell you. That said you probably know from your alfa/fiat project anyway.

Good luck, great idea getting the power through the correct wheels!
Guy


Guy, as per my reply to Shinyshoes regarding the cooling, good idea about an air/water cooler though, I'll look into this and yes I am looking forward to the rear wheels doing some work thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257502
06/09/2011 14:32
06/09/2011 14:32

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
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M



I think something like this should do the trick laugh

Water/Air Charge Cooler

Interesting site.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257532
06/09/2011 16:04
06/09/2011 16:04

S
shinyshoes
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shinyshoes
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted By: MrT
I did toy with the idea of using a 2.4 NA from a Stilo (with selespeed!!!)but I wouldn't get the power, once I've finished the main project, I'd like to save up for forged internals etc and get some serious power laugh


Maybe a 4.0 Rover V8 with open headers...

love

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257740
06/09/2011 23:45
06/09/2011 23:45

P
Paul_Murf
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Paul_Murf
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P



I had an air/water chargecooler on my mk1 mr2 turbo. It was very effective at keeping the inlet air temp down. I also had a water/methanol injection kit to help prevent knock.
I had a stock 3SGTE and it was mapped to over 300bhp at the flywheel. I also cut a vent into the engine lid above the turbo to let hot air escape. The mk1 MR2's design meant that airflow from under the car was scooped up, then through the engine bay and brought over the rear boot and out the back, this also helped keep the engine bay cool.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257897
07/09/2011 14:04
07/09/2011 14:04

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: shinyshoes
Originally Posted By: MrT
I did toy with the idea of using a 2.4 NA from a Stilo (with selespeed!!!)but I wouldn't get the power, once I've finished the main project, I'd like to save up for forged internals etc and get some serious power laugh


Maybe a 4.0 Rover V8 with open headers...

love


shocked I couldn't put a non Italian engine in, I did also think of an Alfa V6 but again, I wouldn't get the power, the sound could possibly make up for that though laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257900
07/09/2011 14:11
07/09/2011 14:11

J
jonone
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jonone
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J



or twin charge the above!

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257901
07/09/2011 14:11
07/09/2011 14:11

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: Paul_Murf
I had an air/water chargecooler on my mk1 mr2 turbo. It was very effective at keeping the inlet air temp down. I also had a water/methanol injection kit to help prevent knock.
I had a stock 3SGTE and it was mapped to over 300bhp at the flywheel. I also cut a vent into the engine lid above the turbo to let hot air escape. The mk1 MR2's design meant that airflow from under the car was scooped up, then through the engine bay and brought over the rear boot and out the back, this also helped keep the engine bay cool.


Thanks for the info Paul, I think the air/water cooler is definitely the way to go, now I've studied them a bit more, I don't know why more people don't use them.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257942
07/09/2011 16:59
07/09/2011 16:59

S
shinyshoes
Unregistered
shinyshoes
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted By: MrT
shocked I couldn't put a non Italian engine in, I did also think of an Alfa V6 but again, I wouldn't get the power, the sound could possibly make up for that though laugh


You say that, but the 3.0 V6 has around 250bhp doesnt it?

And, in VERY small numbers there are turbo charged GTV V6's.

Maybe go for a twin turbo V6...

Maybe a Coupe turbo unit either side, custom map, custom pipe work, mmmmmm love

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257948
07/09/2011 17:50
07/09/2011 17:50

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: shinyshoes
Originally Posted By: MrT
shocked I couldn't put a non Italian engine in, I did also think of an Alfa V6 but again, I wouldn't get the power, the sound could possibly make up for that though laugh


You say that, but the 3.0 V6 has around 250bhp doesnt it?

And, in VERY small numbers there are turbo charged GTV V6's.

Maybe go for a twin turbo V6...

Maybe a Coupe turbo unit either side, custom map, custom pipe work, mmmmmm love


Shineyshoes, I hate you laugh you're starting to make sense, it would do away with all the turbo issues and I do love that sound laugh although if I was going to go the V6 turbo route, I may just as well stay with the Fiat lump and the standard 3.0 V6 is 220bhp and I think the 3.2 is 240 odd and I've got 315 - 340 now chinny food for thought though.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1257955
07/09/2011 18:09
07/09/2011 18:09

S
shinyshoes
Unregistered
shinyshoes
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted By: MrT
Shineyshoes, I hate you laugh you're starting to make sense, it would do away with all the turbo issues and I do love that sound laugh although if I was going to go the V6 turbo route, I may just as well stay with the Fiat lump and the standard 3.0 V6 is 220bhp and I think the 3.2 is 240 odd and I've got 315 - 340 now chinny food for thought though.


laugh

Or maybe... supercharge the V6... lick

Imagine the noise!! Short exhausts being so close to the rear, an Alfa V6 at high rpm is heavenly anyway!

If you are planning on stripping the car and losing alot of weight, you will in theory gain performance even with a lower BHP figure.

Decisions decisions... wink

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1260558
15/09/2011 17:33
15/09/2011 17:33

C
cheech
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cheech
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C



check out autodelta they do the 3.7 gta engine bore and supercharger. at 12k+ a lot of money though without the gta engine cost.

imagine that noise! with 400bhp should be enough power.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1260971
16/09/2011 20:35
16/09/2011 20:35

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted By: cheech
check out autodelta they do the 3.7 gta engine bore and supercharger. at 12k+ a lot of money though without the gta engine cost.

imagine that noise! with 400bhp should be enough power.


12K shocked the idea of this build is to be as self financing as possible by selling the parts of the car I don't need, that obviously won't cover the entire build but will help a lot.

I agree that it would sound pretty damn good though laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1260973
16/09/2011 20:49
16/09/2011 20:49

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



Just a quick update, I've been trying to sort out a roll cage and thought I'd got a decent deal from Balance Motorsport who sent me a link to the website with the agreed discount on, which I couldn't get to work, so I called them up again and the guy I spoke to told me he had reduced all his prices on the site as he wasn't selling a thing and he'll go bust soon shocked I now don't feel very comfortable paying up front for the cage that will take 4 to 6 weeks to arrive, will he still be there?

I think I'll get the tube and build it myself, I've got a pipe bender and notcher, It will obviously just take me longer to do.

The best price I've found so far for 45mm CDS tube is £70 + vat for a 4 metre lenght, does anyone know any better?

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1261174
17/09/2011 20:19
17/09/2011 20:19

J
Jef_uk
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Jef_uk
Unregistered
J



Are you going to be TIG-ing the roll cadge? No reason It would be stronger than a good MIG weld I suppose but most the neat welds on this sort of stuff are TIG.
If you trust your welding to be at say 100mph upside-down go for it. thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1261280
18/09/2011 11:20
18/09/2011 11:20

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



I'll be using a MIG welder as that's all I've got frown it's a pretty good one though, so I'm confident it can do the job.

I've got my City and Guilds in welding, albeit obtained as an appretice many years ago!!! but I have done a fair bit of welding over the years (I've worked in Bodyshops most of my career) so I'm also confident in my own ability and we've got some good guys at work that I can call on if I'm unsure of anything laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1266965
04/10/2011 23:38
04/10/2011 23:38

T
tricky
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tricky
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T



Interesting one, It'l give you something to do anyway !

Air to water coolers aren't so good at holding temps down at constant speed, thats why most use the air to air I/C as the abundance of ambient air at 60 mph is many times greater than the charge air. What they are better at is slower air speeds and short bursts like drag and sprint etc. Just use ducting to feed the intercooler (and it's exit) in the back of the car. When I say ducting I mean full size not bendy hoses, keep the entrance to the duct around 60% of the area of the I/C and that will be the best you can theoreticly get other than an ice packed charge cooler (which has a tendancy to melt obviously).

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1266966
04/10/2011 23:41
04/10/2011 23:41

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tricky
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tricky
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Forgot to say, a freind has a (not italian I know) twin turbo V6 from a nissan 300 zx for sale complete.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1267340
05/10/2011 20:25
05/10/2011 20:25

M
MrT
Unregistered
MrT
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M



Thanks for that advice tricky, very usefull indeed, I've found a few projects on the net relating to air/water coolers and they all seem to point to your conclusing as well.

Before water/air coolers were mentioned, I had thought of having a large box section going straight down the middle of the car (as there won't be any interior anyway) picking up air from ducts at the front and blowing straight onto the cooler.

The other idea is to have two smaller IC's, one either side of the engine at the back being fed by ducts in the rear wings, not sure how the plumbing would work yet though.

I've nearly stripped the interior out now so I can start making some more accurate measurements.

Thanks for the engine offer, but I'll stick to the fiat engine thanks. laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1267900
06/10/2011 23:51
06/10/2011 23:51

T
tricky
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tricky
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T



I don't blame you, maybe we'll fit it in a micra someday tongue

Well ducted intercoolers are always going to be better than non-ducted, even a big open front mount can be improved with a simple shroud to stop the forward coming air 'spilling' over the edges.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1280740
17/10/2011 22:55
17/10/2011 22:55

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Trebor
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Trebor
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T



If your planning on the mid engined idea and depending on your funds you might wanna take a look at ''z cars' they do a nice little rear subframe unit allowing you to mount anu engine in the rear of your car not only saving you a shi! load of work but really do look stunning and allowing you to actually make the car go round a track clicky>> http://www.zcars.org.uk/univkit.php

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1280951
18/10/2011 16:34
18/10/2011 16:34

M
MrT
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MrT
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M



Thanks for that Trebor, a nice idea and a lovely bit of kit, but £7476 shocked I'd struggle to find £74.76 at the momment let alone 7.5k frown never mind, part of the fun for me is actualy making the parts anyway so I'd only be cutting out some of the fun crazy

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1281526
19/10/2011 23:17
19/10/2011 23:17
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Kayjey Offline
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You might want to put this through a translator, or at least look at the pictures.

http://www.squadra-tuning.nl/autos/categorie/196/auto/198.html

It's a twin-engined GTV, working perfectly now. You might want to steal some ideas from that.

The most difficult aspects (narrowing down to rear/mid conversion) were:
- cooling of the rear engine
- rear suspension calibration
- rear suspension geometry
- brake balance
- limited slip diff

Apart from that THEY (for two engines) are using two gearboxes, two different engines, two ECU's, routed exhaust, two fuel tanks, two ECU's, cruise control (via the ECU, so they're linked and the software in the ECU is adapted as there were a few problems),... etcetera.

Makes for good reading and will surely offer you some extra insights.


- Kayjey -

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Kayjey] #1282274
21/10/2011 21:00
21/10/2011 21:00

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Originally Posted By: Kayjey
You might want to put this through a translator, or at least look at the pictures.

http://www.squadra-tuning.nl/autos/categorie/196/auto/198.html

It's a twin-engined GTV, working perfectly now. You might want to steal some ideas from that.

The most difficult aspects (narrowing down to rear/mid conversion) were:
- cooling of the rear engine
- rear suspension calibration
- rear suspension geometry
- brake balance
- limited slip diff

Apart from that THEY (for two engines) are using two gearboxes, two different engines, two ECU's, routed exhaust, two fuel tanks, two ECU's, cruise control (via the ECU, so they're linked and the software in the ECU is adapted as there were a few problems),... etcetera.

Makes for good reading and will surely offer you some extra insights.


Thanks for the info Kayjey, the pictures are helpful on their own smile I'm pretty confident I've got all my initial problems sorted:-

Cooling I don't think will be an issue with a decent radiator at the front and the heat loss through the pipes to the engine at the rear will be more that enough.

Rear suspension wise I still intend using a fully adjustable top wishbone and coil over connected as per the picture click to enlarge that way it's all nice and compact and I can adjust all angles.

Brake balance can be sorted by using a bias valve for the main system in which I'll use the original brembos and for the hand brake I'll use the original rear caliper (provided it will fit over the front disc) on an additional bracket like the Ferrari we had in the other day
click to enlarge I can also use this caliper with an additional hydraulic hand brake laugh

I'll hopefully do the final measurements at the weekend so I can start cutting crazy

Last edited by MrT; 21/10/2011 21:01.
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Kayjey] #1282559
23/10/2011 02:34
23/10/2011 02:34

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Originally Posted By: Kayjey
It's a twin-engined GTV, working perfectly now. You might want to steal some ideas from that.


Alfa GTV V12...

love

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1282728
23/10/2011 20:13
23/10/2011 20:13

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Originally Posted By: shinyshoes
Originally Posted By: Kayjey
It's a twin-engined GTV, working perfectly now. You might want to steal some ideas from that.


Alfa GTV V12...

love


You're going to have to do one shinyshoes laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1282999
24/10/2011 15:43
24/10/2011 15:43

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Originally Posted By: MrT
You're going to have to do one shinyshoes laugh


I have been toying with a Coupe project in my head for ages, the engine would be a V8 though...

wink

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1283010
24/10/2011 16:38
24/10/2011 16:38

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Originally Posted By: MrT
Brake balance can be sorted by using a bias valve for the main system in which I'll use the original brembos and for the hand brake I'll use the original rear caliper (provided it will fit over the front disc) on an additional bracket like the Ferrari we had in the other day
click to enlarge I can also use this caliper with an additional hydraulic hand brake laugh

I'll hopefully do the final measurements at the weekend so I can start cutting crazy


The rear calipers do not fit over standard front discs. They are too thick.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1283103
24/10/2011 20:14
24/10/2011 20:14

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Originally Posted By: Nobby
Originally Posted By: MrT
Brake balance can be sorted by using a bias valve for the main system in which I'll use the original brembos and for the hand brake I'll use the original rear caliper (provided it will fit over the front disc) on an additional bracket like the Ferrari we had in the other day
click to enlarge I can also use this caliper with an additional hydraulic hand brake laugh

I'll hopefully do the final measurements at the weekend so I can start cutting crazy


The rear calipers do not fit over standard front discs. They are too thick.


Yes, I had a measure up at the weekend, I had intended modifying the slider to give me the extra width but I'm not sure there's enough metal there now.

If I can't use the originals I may have to try something like these :-Spot Calipers that little concern is a long way off though smile

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1283106
24/10/2011 20:18
24/10/2011 20:18

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I've updated the main thread BTW

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1286627
04/11/2011 19:46
04/11/2011 19:46

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Just found these Handbrake Calipers. Handbrake problem solved thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1286669
04/11/2011 22:45
04/11/2011 22:45
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Ferrarist Offline
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Great project, have intention to do similar job with Fiat Punto chassis and Alfa 156 2.0Ts engine i had in parts.....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1286819
05/11/2011 19:46
05/11/2011 19:46

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That would be a good conversion Ferrarist, I always liked the Punto Rally
click to enlarge with one of those shells and the mid mounted 2.0 litre it would go extremely well love especially as it would be so light.

Mind you, the back of mine is getting pretty light laugh click to enlarge The fun you can have with Photoshop wink

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1288253
10/11/2011 18:19
10/11/2011 18:19

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Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1288296
10/11/2011 21:02
10/11/2011 21:02

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Many thanks for that jonone, I have seen a few conversions like this, but they are all hatchbacks and end up with no rear window or big scoops on the roof.

I don't want to spoil the standard lines of the Coupe so I was thingking along the lines of:-

1. Air duct at front of car running along the centre tunnel of the car to the intercooler mounted in front of the engine.

or

2. Twin coolers mounted at the same height as the rear 1/4 lights and then having perspex ducts replacing the original 1/4 lights.

I need to get the engine in place to see which would work the best.

Thanks again for the link though, it certainly gives a few pointers thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1291592
23/11/2011 20:06
23/11/2011 20:06

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A rear wheel drive coupe!
Sounds like a great project.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1294293
04/12/2011 10:50
04/12/2011 10:50
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Looking at the area that you marked in white.Once you remove it how will you then fix the anti-roll bar to that area ? Or are you just going to worry about it later ?
Enjoying the project.



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1294302
04/12/2011 11:22
04/12/2011 11:22

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Hi Magooagain

Glad you're enjoying the project laugh The anti roll bar attaches to the cross member and wishbones as below and I'll be using this as part of the rear frame. I've also decided to use my original front KW coil overs at the back to save a bit of room and use standard struts at the front.

click to enlarge

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1294304
04/12/2011 11:31
04/12/2011 11:31
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Great job.....first thing to do when logged in here is to check if there's any updates on this topic.
More picture of any updates welcomed....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1294548
05/12/2011 09:28
05/12/2011 09:28
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MrT, I think MagooAgain meant where are you going to mount the rear of the rollcage if you are cutting the rear wheel arch off


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1294551
05/12/2011 09:49
05/12/2011 09:49
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Yes.



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1294746
05/12/2011 20:26
05/12/2011 20:26

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Oops, sorry Magooagain, I feel a bit silly now, it's obvious what you meant now I've read it again rolleyes

You're right though, I'll worry about that bit later, but I'll probably use a wedge shaped box section welded to the side panel and then bolt the cage to that.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1294763
05/12/2011 21:12
05/12/2011 21:12
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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I should have called it an anti roll cage really, Yes once its all in you should easily find an anchor point.



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project [Re: ] #1317583
18/02/2012 19:20
18/02/2012 19:20

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Good progress. Should be interesting to see how this progresses.

Kev

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1318091
20/02/2012 16:30
20/02/2012 16:30
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Happy that project is not frozen, really wait to see how engine will fit.....
Keep us updated......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1325089
14/03/2012 20:23
14/03/2012 20:23
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Looking good MrT thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1325118
14/03/2012 22:00
14/03/2012 22:00
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Yes it looks well Mr T.
How do you think the front and rear suspension will work out ?
I imagine you will put a front sub-frame on the front also ?
With the rear having a front sub-frame. Will you be making some kind of top mounts at the rear ?



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: magooagain] #1325129
14/03/2012 22:54
14/03/2012 22:54

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Originally Posted By: magooagain
Yes it looks well Mr T.
How do you think the front and rear suspension will work out ?
I imagine you will put a front sub-frame on the front also ?
With the rear having a front sub-frame. Will you be making some kind of top mounts at the rear ?


Thanks guys, a long way to go yet though crazy

As for the suspension, I'll be using the standard front subframe and my original KW coil overs at the front (no power steering though!) and the rear I'm going to go for a top wishbone (Unequal length) and probably inboard coilover as I want the whole subframe, engine, gearbox and suspension to be easily removable in one package so to speak.

That's the theory anyway laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1326810
20/03/2012 17:11
20/03/2012 17:11
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Can you please keep save any measurements do you take during this project, i forgot my dreams to create RWD Punto cause it seems that it's chassis is really too weak for that "twist", and huge strengthen required.

Originally Posted By: MrT
as I want the whole subframe, engine, gearbox and suspension to be easily removable in one package so to speak.

Very good idea IMO if you're sure that this combo had really good and strong mount to the chassis, otherwise you risk too much.
Keep us updated, pictures really welcomed....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1328721
25/03/2012 20:16
25/03/2012 20:16

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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Can you please keep save any measurements do you take during this project, i forgot my dreams to create RWD Punto cause it seems that it's chassis is really too weak for that "twist", and huge strengthen required.

Originally Posted By: MrT
as I want the whole subframe, engine, gearbox and suspension to be easily removable in one package so to speak.

Very good idea IMO if you're sure that this combo had really good and strong mount to the chassis, otherwise you risk too much.
Keep us updated, pictures really welcomed....



Hello again Ferrarist

I will take all the measurments as I go along and let you know.

The subframe will have six mounting points where I've shown in the picture below and the mounting to the rollcage will also link to the side panel where the small arrow is and that panel will be strengthened.

click to enlarge

I did convert a Fiat 126 a few years ago with a mid mounted Alfa 33 engine in (I'll try and find some pictures of that) and that was rock solid.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1329060
26/03/2012 18:36
26/03/2012 18:36
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Originally Posted By: MrT

The subframe will have six mounting points where I've shown in the picture below and the mounting to the rollcage will also link to the side panel where the small arrow is and that panel will be strengthened.

Well it seems stiff and solid to me - did you expect any extra chassis twist cause the rear end obviously is not constructed to take engine weight and it's forces....???


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1329087
26/03/2012 20:17
26/03/2012 20:17

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I'm not too concerned about any twist in the chassis, the picture below shows what additional bracing I'll have which will tie the subframe into shell quite well and being a transverse engine and box most of the torque will be transmitted front to rear rather than side to side.

There will of course still be the cornering forces being transmitted through the subframe and into the shell, but I'm confident it will have less flex than the front drive set up laugh

click to enlarge

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1329099
26/03/2012 20:56
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Great drawings, thanks......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343585
16/05/2012 08:14
16/05/2012 08:14
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Originally Posted By: MrT

So, pretty chuffed with how it's going, I'll start making up the basic parts of the subframe next and then I need to finally decide on weather to use the original struts (KW Coilovers) or to do what I originaly wanted to do and make an upper wishbone to keep the suspension nice and low and also give me negative bump camber at the rear.

Any thoughts or experiences with either suspension setup would be most appreciated thumb

You did a great job, week ago i started with moving my 2.5V6 engine rearwards, difference with me is that i cut entire front frame from later Alfa 155, and with suspension only on it, will be fitted and cage welded at the rear.
IMO there is no need for upper wishbone setup like Alfa 156 for rear suspension - first is too heavy, and is pointless if the rear tires did not steer......that's why i opted for Alfa 155 frame - bit longer wheelbase, and simple wishbone setup. And it will be easy for me to make the rear camber adjustable.


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343591
16/05/2012 09:22
16/05/2012 09:22
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MrT, looking very good now laugh I'm not sure mounting the rollcage onto the tyre is a good idea though tongue

Once you've done this, fancy doing a 16vt conversion? You know the engine is lighter so you wouldn't have to struggle as much rofl

But seriously, if you ever need an extra pair of hands, feel free to give me a shout smile


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343594
16/05/2012 09:39
16/05/2012 09:39

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MrT..

well done mate, your nearly there laugh

regardign the rear suspension...

why not try trhe Alfa 156 rear suspension + Subframe.

you can adjust the camber and use double wishbone suspension?

if you want photos ect drop me a pm smile

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1343599
16/05/2012 10:03
16/05/2012 10:03

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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Originally Posted By: MrT

So, pretty chuffed with how it's going, I'll start making up the basic parts of the subframe next and then I need to finally decide on weather to use the original struts (KW Coilovers) or to do what I originaly wanted to do and make an upper wishbone to keep the suspension nice and low and also give me negative bump camber at the rear.

Any thoughts or experiences with either suspension setup would be most appreciated thumb

You did a great job, week ago i started with moving my 2.5V6 engine rearwards, difference with me is that i cut entire front frame from later Alfa 155, and with suspension only on it, will be fitted and cage welded at the rear.
IMO there is no need for upper wishbone setup like Alfa 156 for rear suspension - first is too heavy, and is pointless if the rear tires did not steer......that's why i opted for Alfa 155 frame - bit longer wheelbase, and simple wishbone setup. And it will be easy for me to make the rear camber adjustable.


That sounds like you've got a fair amout of work to do as well Ferrarist!! I'll have a look at the 155 stuff, the reason I was thinking about a top wishbone rather than a strut was if I use unequal length wishbones with the shorter one at the top it will increase the negative camber as the load increases which will help the grip and also help the tyre clear the wing as it moves up as it's a bit tight there laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1343601
16/05/2012 10:11
16/05/2012 10:11

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Originally Posted By: Begbie
MrT, looking very good now laugh I'm not sure mounting the rollcage onto the tyre is a good idea though tongue

Once you've done this, fancy doing a 16vt conversion? You know the engine is lighter so you wouldn't have to struggle as much rofl

But seriously, if you ever need an extra pair of hands, feel free to give me a shout smile


Thanks for the offer young sir, most appreciated. It's going to have to come out a few times so I could do with a hand, actually I could do with a complete new back hehe

I can't see a problem with mounting the cage on the tyre, it's at the top and it's only the bottom of the tyre that gets used isn't it? laugh

16VT conversion, seeing your car accelerate at Brooklands, I don't think you need any more traction do you wink Very impressive.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343603
16/05/2012 10:16
16/05/2012 10:16

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Originally Posted By: Marco20ValveT
MrT..

well done mate, your nearly there laugh

regardign the rear suspension...

why not try trhe Alfa 156 rear suspension + Subframe.

you can adjust the camber and use double wishbone suspension?

if you want photos ect drop me a pm smile


Thanks Marco, not sure about being nearly there though, I'm going to try and get it on it's wheels for Brooklands next year, so a fair bit to do before then frown Those 156 pictures would be usefull though cool

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343616
16/05/2012 11:09
16/05/2012 11:09
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Very impressive MrT, the project is coming along nicely thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343617
16/05/2012 11:19
16/05/2012 11:19

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im on it guys..

need to get a compelte subframe off with the shocks / hubs attached and go from there!!

i was also thinking..

how about a GTV rear sub frame?

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343764
16/05/2012 17:35
16/05/2012 17:35
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Originally Posted By: MrT

That sounds like you've got a fair amout of work to do as well Ferrarist!! I'll have a look at the 155 stuff, the reason I was thinking about a top wishbone rather than a strut was if I use unequal length wishbones with the shorter one at the top it will increase the negative camber as the load increases which will help the grip and also help the tyre clear the wing as it moves up as it's a bit tight there laugh

Well the hard part will be locating and centering the 155's frame to the chassis......i want to cut from it as little as possible......Today i complete 70% of the "cutting" work, tomorrow will try to find a way to find out what is the correct position for the 155's frame and under-subframe attached to it.....measuring the right distance from the ground will be the first challenge.
I had used 156's upper wishbones cutted and welded to achieve extra camber on my Alfa, but as i said, for my application and use of this car, 156's front suspension setup weights too much......and when on track i need constant camber on the rear end.
You must have in mind that if you use 156's fronts double wishbone setup, rear end of the car is always little higher than front, and you'll get camber only when the load is on(in the middle of the corner mostly), and when on brakes rear end will go lighter and upwards - camber will change in a opposite direction. Entire rear setup will be very tricky......
But it's all up to you - that's just my point of view......
Hope you don't mind posting few pictures of my process here......
click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge
click to enlarge click to enlarge


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1343825
16/05/2012 20:52
16/05/2012 20:52

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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Originally Posted By: MrT

That sounds like you've got a fair amout of work to do as well Ferrarist!! I'll have a look at the 155 stuff, the reason I was thinking about a top wishbone rather than a strut was if I use unequal length wishbones with the shorter one at the top it will increase the negative camber as the load increases which will help the grip and also help the tyre clear the wing as it moves up as it's a bit tight there laugh

Well the hard part will be locating and centering the 155's frame to the chassis......i want to cut from it as little as possible......Today i complete 70% of the "cutting" work, tomorrow will try to find a way to find out what is the correct position for the 155's frame and under-subframe attached to it.....measuring the right distance from the ground will be the first challenge.
I had used 156's upper wishbones cutted and welded to achieve extra camber on my Alfa, but as i said, for my application and use of this car, 156's front suspension setup weights too much......and when on track i need constant camber on the rear end.
You must have in mind that if you use 156's fronts double wishbone setup, rear end of the car is always little higher than front, and you'll get camber only when the load is on(in the middle of the corner mostly), and when on brakes rear end will go lighter and upwards - camber will change in a opposite direction. Entire rear setup will be very tricky......
But it's all up to you - that's just my point of view......
Hope you don't mind posting few pictures of my process here......


No problem at all Ferrarist, looking at all the additional work involved changing to double wishbone, I'm now not sure it's worth it.

I've taken a few more measurments today and using the original coilovers at the back will be a lot better if I take the helper springs out, that way the top of the damper mount is low enough to keep it well out of sight.

Good luck with your project buy the way, it's looking good so far.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1343930
17/05/2012 09:19
17/05/2012 09:19
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RE: The boxing in. Would it be worth doing some sort of quick release / bonnet pin system, just in case you need to work on something without having the ball ache of having to unbolt panels to gain access?


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1343953
17/05/2012 10:28
17/05/2012 10:28

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Originally Posted By: Begbie
RE: The boxing in. Would it be worth doing some sort of quick release / bonnet pin system, just in case you need to work on something without having the ball ache of having to unbolt panels to gain access?


Yes, good point that. I was going to have the rear screen removable (Perspex) and perhaps all the other paneling held in with Dzus fasteners so they're easy to remove, that's another reason why I wanted to keep the suspension low so I can unbolt and remove the whole subframe and engine etc and wheel it out from under the car for major works.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1357599
06/07/2012 13:53
06/07/2012 13:53
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In the coupe.
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If you have to change CHOD i imagine it will be alot easier than the front engined coupes.

Whats your plan about the front of the coupe ? Will you test drive it before you decide ?
I imagine it will be a bit light up front.

Will you fabricate some sort of boot floor for the front ?

Last edited by magooagain; 06/07/2012 13:54.


Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: magooagain] #1357690
06/07/2012 20:23
06/07/2012 20:23

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Originally Posted By: magooagain
If you have to change CHOD i imagine it will be alot easier than the front engined coupes.

Whats your plan about the front of the coupe ? Will you test drive it before you decide ?
I imagine it will be a bit light up front.

Will you fabricate some sort of boot floor for the front ?


It certainly will be easier to change the CHOD, I can now get in the engine bay with the engine laugh

I'm going to start with a standard setup at the front, just with shorter springs until I know what ride height I want. As the front will be so much lighter I think the standard spring and anti-roll bar rates will be pretty close to what I want.

The front bay will now house the battery, fuel tanks and coolant radiator and of course all the ducting for the intercooler feed to the back and to the radiator at the front, I'm going to sit the coolant radiator above the intercooler duct at an angle so it fits and then duct air from the upper part of the grille through vents in the bonnet, I'll also have vents in the boot lid to expel the air blowing through the intercooler.

I will have the bottom of the bay panelled out to help with air flow. I'll try and do a picture of the front to make it clearer, I'm hoping that the air being ducted through the rad and out of the bonnet will give me a little bit of downforce at the front aswell.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1357720
06/07/2012 21:51
06/07/2012 21:51
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Well, it seems i'm few steps in front of you.... wink
Don't worry that front will be too light, you may see where is the weight center on my 156's with engine fitted......
Cage is not finished yet, few welds must be done....i know that it looks very rough, but it will be trackdays car only, not for "best cage" competition events, and i don't care how it will look like as long as it stays strong.....
click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge

Last edited by Ferrarist; 06/07/2012 21:56.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1357780
07/07/2012 01:21
07/07/2012 01:21
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In the coupe.
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Strangly i think you will get better air flow for your intercooler than standard ! at least !

Very interested and well done.



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: magooagain] #1357830
07/07/2012 10:47
07/07/2012 10:47

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Originally Posted By: magooagain
Strangly i think you will get better air flow for your intercooler than standard ! at least !



That's what I'm hoping, buy sealing the face of the intercooler against the the air ducting, the air won't have any choice but to go through the cooler and the intake at the front will be larger than the face area of the cooler so I'll get a bit of ram as well.

I also believe that if you angle the cooler slightly against the air flow the flow is slightly restricted through the cooler giving better heat transfer. It's also important to make sure the air can get out of the engine bay once it's gone through the cooler, if it can't, the flow will be a lot less than it could be.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1357834
07/07/2012 11:10
07/07/2012 11:10

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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Well, it seems i'm few steps in front of you.... wink
Don't worry that front will be too light, you may see where is the weight center on my 156's with engine fitted......
Cage is not finished yet, few welds must be done....i know that it looks very rough, but it will be trackdays car only, not for "best cage" competition events, and i don't care how it will look like as long as it stays strong.....


That's moving on quite quickly there Ferrarist, don't try and do it too quickly though, make sure those welds are going to hold if you end up on your roof at 100mph shocked Looking good so far though thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1358033
08/07/2012 07:57
08/07/2012 07:57
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Originally Posted By: MrT

That's moving on quite quickly there Ferrarist, don't try and do it too quickly though, make sure those welds are going to hold if you end up on your roof at 100mph shocked

Welds not finished yet, guess you mention the X frame - just need to have it on to see how it will looks like.
Fitting engine was easy, hardest part now in front of me....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1384925
14/10/2012 15:26
14/10/2012 15:26
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If you need kind of push - here it is - Alfa Romeo 156 2.5V6 RWD First Track Test


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1385008
14/10/2012 20:47
14/10/2012 20:47

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Looking good there Ferrarist thumb I'd love to get mine done faster than I am but I work a 60 hour week and I'm also dependent on the weather frown as I'm doing most of the work outside, and at my age that's about all I can cope with crazy

Seeing your car moving certainly does make me want to get my arse in gear though, I've got a week off in November so I'll get a fair bit done then (I'm going to put a gazeebo over the car so the weather won't stop me laugh )

Anyway, well done on your progress cool

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1389204
03/11/2012 12:30
03/11/2012 12:30
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magooagain Offline
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A quick search shows up something like this. http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/180745378...=pla&crdt=0

It may be worth it for now and the future.



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1390350
08/11/2012 09:07
08/11/2012 09:07

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Good thought Magooagain

I'm using this at the momment, keeps the back end dry where I'm working at least.

click to enlarge click to enlarge

I have got plans to build a car port at the front as soon as funds allow rolleyes

Still it hasn't rained this week so I've got a fair bit done cool

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1390351
08/11/2012 09:17
08/11/2012 09:17
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Where's the update then? laugh


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1390355
08/11/2012 09:31
08/11/2012 09:31

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Another couple of days and I'll have enough to put on laugh , nearly finished myself off getting that f***kin engine and box back in the workshop though shocked

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1390357
08/11/2012 09:34
08/11/2012 09:34
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Just stay focussed Alan, you know it'll be a triumph ( although as a former Vitesse owner I hope for your sake it won't be!)


[Linked Image]352bhp+317ftlb/1310Kg=Joy!
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1390364
08/11/2012 09:52
08/11/2012 09:52

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Will do mate thumb and No a 20VT Vitesse doesn't bear thinking about crazy

Anyway, got to go and fix the cold start on the Doblo before I can carry on, catch up soon.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391026
11/11/2012 13:28
11/11/2012 13:28
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Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
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Happy with your progress and just to share my experience about subframe braces.
IMO it's really important to "brace" lower front part of the subframe with some rigid and stable part of the chassis.
click to enlarge

Your car's balance will be around 47\53 - 40\60 front to rear(it's just my guess based on my Alfa156 balance), and there will be absolutely no reason for you to use front brembos for rear calipers.
First your brake master cylinder wont be able to create pressure needed for 2 set's of brembo calipers, brake pedal will be very soft and will travel a lot comparing with OE setup.
Smaller alfa 145's hubs with still vented and smaller discs will be better solution, you still be able to use same coilovers, ABS sensors, with smaller calipers.
Bear in mind that there 2 types of 145's hubs, if you go that route i'll explain you more if needed.

Last edited by Ferrarist; 11/11/2012 13:30.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391033
11/11/2012 15:46
11/11/2012 15:46

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Thanks for the advice Ferrarist, I had intended using dual master cylinders with a balance bar and I wasn't going to bother with abs as it will only be a track car.

I'll let you know which route I take though, so I may use smaller rear calipers yet.

I agree with the bracing of the original part of the front subframe, I will be adding this when I finish the rest of the subframe off.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391162
12/11/2012 11:03
12/11/2012 11:03
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The engine photo to the garage made me chuckle slightly, I was thinking you should have done a bunch of still shots and made it into an animation laugh

Oh, and the offer of an extra pair of hands is still there if you need it smile


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391167
12/11/2012 11:21
12/11/2012 11:21
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Countrycruising Offline
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Great progress MrT thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1391321
12/11/2012 20:26
12/11/2012 20:26

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Originally Posted By: Begbie
The engine photo to the garage made me chuckle slightly, I was thinking you should have done a bunch of still shots and made it into an animation laugh

Oh, and the offer of an extra pair of hands is still there if you need it smile


That would have been a good thing to do, although there would have been quite a few pictures, it took me nearly a hour crazy The extra pair of hands would be a help, perhaps you could pop over one weekend when I've got to levitate the engine in the frame to sort the mountings out laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391323
12/11/2012 20:27
12/11/2012 20:27

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Thanks for the thumbs up Mr CC, progress has been a bit slow but I'm enjoying the process smile

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391348
12/11/2012 22:20
12/11/2012 22:20
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Great efforts going on there Mr T.
I had a quick re read of your projit as i was wondering if you are going for an engine rebuild/upgrade.
Whats your plan for the engine ?



Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391355
12/11/2012 22:59
12/11/2012 22:59

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Thanks magooagain smile

Engine's going to stay as it is for now, it's quite nicely spec'd anyway putting out a very easy 315bhp and 340 with the boost up a tad higher.

With that power and a light car, it should still be fairly quick and I want to concentrate on the handling and brakes first and then maybe up the power, I think the chassis should always out perform the engine anyway driving

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391418
13/11/2012 11:30
13/11/2012 11:30
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Originally Posted By: MrT
Thanks for the thumbs up Mr CC, progress has been a bit slow but I'm enjoying the process smile


This is my joy of buiding unique projects, it's unkown territory building something that hasn't been done before so to see your efforts with R&D leading to adapted parts is a joy to follow and I have my fingers crossed we'll see this at Brooklands smile

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391438
13/11/2012 12:32
13/11/2012 12:32
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Watford
MarioCirillo Offline
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I love updates to this project, really cant wait to see the end results!
Fantastic work thumb


Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391446
13/11/2012 13:15
13/11/2012 13:15
Joined: Dec 2005
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Gone
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Ditto, fantastic work Mr T.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391734
14/11/2012 20:42
14/11/2012 20:42

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MrT
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Thanks for the encouragement guy's, most appreciated smile.

Alexis, when are you up for a bit of engine lifting?

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391799
15/11/2012 09:37
15/11/2012 09:37
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I can do this Saturday, in return, you can weld my downpipe? laugh

click to enlarge


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1391954
15/11/2012 17:28
15/11/2012 17:28
Joined: Dec 2005
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N.E Scotland
mattB Offline
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I'm glad you put up the photo to preempt any innuendo on that statement. Still loads of scope for comments on filling your crack. laugh

Nice work btw Mr T.


Death-rattle-tastic
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1391987
15/11/2012 20:22
15/11/2012 20:22

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Originally Posted By: Begbie
I can do this Saturday, in return, you can weld my downpipe? laugh

click to enlarge


This Saturday's a bit soon for the lift I need, but you're welcome to pop over and I'll weld the down pipe for you.

And just to make it clear Mr mattB, there will not be any "crack filling" going on I can assure you hehe

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: mattB] #1392004
15/11/2012 22:34
15/11/2012 22:34
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Originally Posted By: mattB
I'm glad you put up the photo to preempt any innuendo on that statement. Still loads of scope for comments on filling your crack. laugh

Nice work btw Mr T.

Hello stranger, glad to see you're still on top form laugh

MrT, you have a PM


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1397166
10/12/2012 09:28
10/12/2012 09:28
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Doesn't look that different from last time wink

Isn't the wheel going to rub on part of the frame when the suspension compresses?

Let me know when you still need a hand with supporting the engine too.


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1397274
10/12/2012 18:44
10/12/2012 18:44
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Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
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Don't dry sump it......it doesnt worth the risk IMO......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Begbie] #1397297
10/12/2012 20:52
10/12/2012 20:52

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Originally Posted By: Begbie
Doesn't look that different from last time wink

Isn't the wheel going to rub on part of the frame when the suspension compresses?

Let me know when you still need a hand with supporting the engine too.


Doesn't look any different!!! there may only be an hours worth of welding, but there's about 20 hours of thinking and measuring hehe

And dont worry, the wheel won't rub on anything, it's just the angle of the camera wink

I'll certainly let you know when I need a hand and thanks again

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: Ferrarist] #1397298
10/12/2012 20:53
10/12/2012 20:53

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Originally Posted By: Ferrarist
Don't dry sump it......it doesnt worth the risk IMO......


That would be a very long way away, so no danger if it happening at this time smile

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1397532
12/12/2012 00:26
12/12/2012 00:26

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You not tempted to just stick a couple of trolley wheels to the front of your subframe frame and maybe a wheelie bar out the back laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1397687
12/12/2012 20:45
12/12/2012 20:45

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That would certainly be a youtube hit Nobby biglaugh

Last edited by MrT; 12/12/2012 20:45.
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1398233
15/12/2012 17:27
15/12/2012 17:27
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Windsor/ Reading
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keep the updates coming mate it always a good read


LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
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Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1398352
16/12/2012 11:55
16/12/2012 11:55

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Will do matey, I'd better make sure I've done enough to it before I post again though hehe

Struggling for parts at the momment though, or more accurately, struggling for cash for parts rolleyes Times is hard!!! I'll get there though thumb

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project [Re: ] #1399909
25/12/2012 22:04
25/12/2012 22:04

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Katre
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Supebe project, I wait to see the continuation impatiently

Last edited by Katre; 25/12/2012 22:04.
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project [Re: ] #1409141
05/02/2013 22:07
05/02/2013 22:07
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berkshire england
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nice work !

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project [Re: ] #1409257
06/02/2013 14:08
06/02/2013 14:08
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Watford
MarioCirillo Offline
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I love this project
Awesome thread!
Cant wait to see more, keep up the good work thumb


Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041
Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1409822
08/02/2013 20:48
08/02/2013 20:48

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MrT
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Thanks for the encouragement chaps, I'm still picking away at it and will hopefully get it to Brooklands one way or another laugh

I don't think I'll have finished the subframe by then as there's a lot of, as yet, unknown bracketry to go on and I'll want them on before I paint it, but I'll assemble everything so that the car's rolling and I can get it on a trailer.

I've also got a cunning plan for some adjustable wishbones which hopefully I'll have ready by then as well cool


Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project [Re: ] #1413973
03/03/2013 10:56
03/03/2013 10:56

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Wow,great work ! Look forward to seeing how she drives laugh

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project [Re: ] #1414232
04/03/2013 18:41
04/03/2013 18:41
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Posts: 555
Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
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Happy with your progress......how you will set you cooling system.....if the rad stays in front there will be no problem.......but i had cooling issues when moved rad just in front of the rear bumper.......
Adjustable wishbones is great idea, but it will be difficult to do because rear bush sits higher on the front subframe.
Will be any problem if you can take and save it's measurements......i'm using Coupe front subframe for my rear 156's and it will be very useful for me......
P.S - just had closer look on your pic's - it there any place for rear anti-roll-bar?????

Last edited by Ferrarist; 04/03/2013 18:45.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1414256
04/03/2013 20:26
04/03/2013 20:26

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MrT
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It'll be a little while before it moves under it's own steam rich!! rolleyes

Hi Ferrarist, coolant rad will be at the front and mounted horizontally as per a few Lotus models and the intercooler will be just in front of the engine.

I think I've got the wishbones worked out, if I don't get time to mock some up in the near future, I'll try and do some drawings to give an idea.

Yep, rear antiroll bar fixings are still there.

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1416145
15/03/2013 20:21
15/03/2013 20:21
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 555
Bulgaria
Ferrarist Offline
Enjoying the ride
Ferrarist  Offline
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 555
Bulgaria
Don't know if you will use your car on track, but please have in mind that changing rear toe settings will have huge effect when cornering.
Just finished a weekend at Greece's Serres race track 3 days event, and after awful beginning, now i think i have a lot of info about what i did right and wrong.
Driving RWD on track is real fun when you make it cornering as it should. And no matter how unique my project is(it's first 156's RWD ever), it should be a lot money and time saving for me if someone did that before and had someone's project to follow......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ErGozsG1x4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozcGHSsViqE

Last edited by Ferrarist; 15/03/2013 20:24.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Mid Engine Coupe Project Discussion Thread [Re: ] #1416371
17/03/2013 11:00
17/03/2013 11:00

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MrT
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That's looking very nice Ferrarist cool I understand what you mean about the rear geometry setup being critical, I learnt quite a lot when doing this 126 mid engine car

click to enlarge

One problem with using front wheel drive setup at the rear is the track a geometry are completely wrong, on the 126 I ended up with a slightly wider track at the rear and a tiny bit of toe in, it was still a bit twitchy but that was mainly due to such a short wheelbase.

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